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Poland's post-election political scene


OP Polonius3 1,007 | 12,507    
15 Dec 2015  #181
against a bunch of political opportunists that want to use Poland to line their own pockets.

I could agree with you if you had said: one bunch of political opportunists who want to use Poland to line their own pockets are opposed to another bunch of political opportunists who want to use Poland to line their own pockets.

But you are spouting a naive fairy tale which you yourself don't believe: Petru is a selfless, dedicated knight in shining armour with no ties to banksters or corporate forces who is opposing a band of PiS opportunists.

All PiS have to do

FYI -- A VOICE FROM ACROSS THE ATLANTIC (of a PolAm political science professor):

From afar, I think Walesa is wrong in calling for a referendum to out PiS.
Poland has a democratic system of governance. PiS won the presidency and the parliament - fair and square.
Moreover there is no constitutional rationale for nullifying the elections of 2015.
The positions of Duda and Szydlo may be at the heart of this issue.
They - and not Kaczynski - are the elected leaders of the country. They should act as leaders and not appear as if they are puppets of Kaczynski.

Just maybe it is time for Kaczynski to go?
Walesa, Jaruzelski, Mazowiecki, etc., etc, - are all real or political goners. 1989, 1981, 1980, 1976, 1968, 1956, 1947, 1939, 1926, 1918 - it's history.
IMPORTANT HISTORY but still history. Let the new generation govern. In the best interests of the Polish people.
Roger5 2 | 1,476    
15 Dec 2015  #182
Poland will never be at peace until these ghosts are gone. Everyone except hardcore PiS fans is utterly sick of the sight of Jarek and his ilk. The prof is right, PiS won fair and square, but their post-election behaviour is worrying those who fear for Poland's young and fragile democracy.
OP Polonius3 1,007 | 12,507    
15 Dec 2015  #183
Jarek and his ilk

The problem is that PiS is a "partia wodzowska" (leader-centred party). So was PO under Tusk. When he left, Kopacz tried but failed to become someone to rally around and keep sympathisers within the Platformer fold.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #184
Moreover there is no constitutional rationale for nullifying the elections of 2015.

Agreed. No need for a referendum, nor is there any dispute over the results. The electoral system is a bit flawed, but all parties play by the same rules and fair is fair.

The positions of Duda and Szydlo may be at the heart of this issue.
They - and not Kaczynski - are the elected leaders of the country. They should act as leaders and not appear as if they are puppets of Kaczynski.

Wise words. Duda in particular is looking particularly shameful - three university law departments have now came out against him, which is remarkable.

Let the new generation govern. In the best interests of the Polish people.

I would quite like to see where a Duda-Szydło combination would go without Kaczyński and the other ghosts. But this is about power, and Kaczyński is not going to give up the power now that he's finally got it in his hands.

If he genuinely cared about Poland, he would see that it's time to let this new generation be themselves.
smurf 39 | 1,994    
15 Dec 2015  #185
They should act as leaders and not appear as if they are puppets of Kaczynski.

Of course they should, but they are cowards afraid of uncle Jaro and his cult of followers, indeed, they are part of the cult.

Just maybe it is time for Kaczynski to go?

That time has long past. If he were a bull, he'd have been put out to pasture a long, long time ago.

three university law departments have now came out against him, which is remarkable.

Yea, that's pretty hilarious. The president being a qualified lawyer, breaking the law and his peers coming out aginast him. Like, ya can't make this up :D

The prof is right, PiS won fair and square, but their post-election behaviour is worrying those who fear for Poland's young and fragile democracy.

+1
Harry    
15 Dec 2015  #186
They should act as leaders and not appear as if they are puppets of Kaczynski.

They do not just appear to puppets of The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski: they very clearly are puppets of The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski.

The electoral system is a bit flawed, but all parties play by the same rules and fair is fair.

If the system enables a single party to gain a majority in parliament by winning the votes of 18% of Polish adults, the system is broken and needs to be reformed. I'd strongly favour mandatory voting, or at the very least a referendum on whether mandatory voting should be introduced (and that referendum would introduce it unless the majority of voters rejected it and the turnout at the referendum was at least 50%).

YThe president being a qualified lawyer, breaking the law and his peers coming out aginast him.

And while he might be able to pardon himself (and if he doesn't, The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski's next cat will), he can't get back into his chosen profession so easily.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #187
PiS are in trouble according to the opinion polls. Their support is dropping like a stone - the latest TNS poll shows...

PiS - 27%
Nowoczesna - 24%
PO - 16%
Kukiz - 12%
ZL - 6%
Razem - 4%
PSL - 4%

wyborcza.pl/1,75478,19345912,sondaz-tns-dla-wyborczej-nie-ma-zgody-na-taka-demokracje.html

Can Duda survive?

On the flip side, Kukiz appears to have adopted the 2006 PO strategy of doing absolutely nothing.
G (undercover)    
15 Dec 2015  #188
Sondaż TNS dla "Wyborczej"

They got what they paid for.
Ironside 47 | 9,250    
15 Dec 2015  #189
Poland will never be at peace until these ghosts are gone

What ghosts? If you think that this conflict is about individuals or personalities you are wrong.

Everyone except hardcore PiS fans is utterly sick of the sight of Jarek and his ilk.

Yep, decades of black PR.

but their post-election behaviour is worrying those who fear for Poland's young and fragile democracy.

Hmm, by kicking up fuss about PO having majority in the constitutional court and wanting even greater majority?
Is that all about it? In that case people are confusing PO with PiS otherwise it doesn't make sense.

wyborcza.pl

Bhahaha! Delph go west!
You could go and ask for polls to The Völkischer Beobachter !
OP Polonius3 1,007 | 12,507    
15 Dec 2015  #190
Nowoczesna - 24%

Petru has all the makings of an effective demagogue. Strong, dynamic, well versed in rabble-rousing rhetoric that appeals to the masses and is even handsome for the ladies. All those are vote-getting attributes which does not necessarily mean it's what's best for the nation.
jon357 65 | 13,618    
15 Dec 2015  #191
PiS are in trouble according to the opinion polls.

It was always going to happen. But this quickly?

They really have screwed up, but then again, everyone expected them to.
Harry    
15 Dec 2015  #192
PiS - 27%

Yes, the problem is that, as recent events have shown, they only need 18% to form a regime. Also, the support that they have lost is almost certain to be the supporters who were least likely to actually go out and vote for them anyway.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #193
They got what they paid for.

Another fine example of insults when things don't go the way of PiS.

It was always going to happen. But this quickly?

Quite impressive, really. But what makes things even worse for them is that they're being blamed by the electorate for this mess - their attempts to blame PO have failed miserably. Duda's reputation is in tatters, and street protests are likely to focus on him. The centrist voters are annoyed, and there are some interesting KOD plans to reach more and more people.

(awaiting predictable insults about KOD)
Ironside 47 | 9,250    
15 Dec 2015  #194
Another fine example of insults

For you anything you don't know how to counter is either threat or insult or both. There was a movie I don't remember much about but a certain character a boy who reacted much in the same way. If and when he was addressed, he would respond with - is that a threat? In the movie it was quite funny but in the real life debate it is tenuous, boring and off-topic. Only people without class and arguments would use such a childish tactics. .
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #195
See, Ironside, again - you're not addressing the topic at all, but rather trying to derail it.

The poll results are clear - Poles are annoyed with PiS and blame them for the problems with the TK.

Fortunately, opposition numbers are swelling.
Tartar 1 | 22    
15 Dec 2015  #196
On the Brightside, at least with PIS winning the election, we don't have to worry about ISIS as the only terrorists in Poland is PIS...

You couldn't write a comedy this good; hoping that they keep it up, as I am wetting myself laughing at this comedy act!
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #197
The real question now - if protests grow and grow in size, what will PiS do next? They're already attempting to bring in "anti-terror" legislation that seems aimed more at dealing with domestic problems than foreign terrorism.

Personally, I hope for the army on the streets. At least then, Kaczyński would be finished.
Ironside 47 | 9,250    
15 Dec 2015  #198
See, Ironside, again - you're not addressing the topic at all, but rather trying to derail it.

Nah, that is a lie!
You have being derailing this thread for the last 15 posts! you don't address issues either just playing a victim and skimming on the surface!

The poll results are clear

the polls are BS, that paper is heavily biased against PiS and is well know for publishing propaganda rather than facts and anybody with a working knowledge of the Polish language knows that!

Poles are annoyed with PiS and blame them for the problems with the TK.

Nah PO and their cronies and voters including their (banksters- sock puppet) sidekick Nowoczesna are kicking up that fuss! Nobody else!

Fortunately, opposition numbers are swelling.

In your imagination! Who was against PiS, still is nothing new there!

On the Brightside, at least with PIS winning the election, we don't have to worry about ISIS as the only terrorists in Poland is PIS...

I see another defender of democracy! phew!
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #199
Latest news : Szydło has said that she'll publish the TK rulings. Probably the fall in support for PiS and the utter erosion of Duda's credibility has something to do with it.

Could be a game, could be genuine. Hard to tell, and I wouldn't believe a word she says until it's actually published. More importantly, PiS appear to be up to some tricks involving the TK, so this isn't over.
Harry    
15 Dec 2015  #200
Anybody else seen that The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski is being sued for his 'the worst kind of Poles' comment? And as it's a civil case he can't even get his cat Duda to pardon him!
Tartar 1 | 22    
15 Dec 2015  #201
They will just replace the judges and he will get off... PIS = It is almost like voting for ISIS.. they will ruin the country and you have no idea what you have done...

They will reverse the changes they did to create a middle school and it will overload lower schools with the additional class 0 and middle school, soo stupid!

Putin would be better for Poland than PIS.. They are dangerous, because they are soo stupid!

We are all at risk until they are out of power - anyone want to bet when the no confidence vote will be for PIS???

God Save Poland, becuase nobody else will!
smurf 39 | 1,994    
15 Dec 2015  #202
And as it's a civil case he can't even get his cat Duda to pardon him!

Hahah, yes, very funny.

I wonder where can we sign it? Or if we still can?
thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/233045,PiS-leader-faces-lawsuit-over-%E2%80%98treason%E2%80%99-comments

Thousands of citizens have said they aim to sue the leader of Poland's governing Law and Justice (PiS), after he called the party's opponents "Poles of the worst kind."

Ironside 47 | 9,250    
15 Dec 2015  #203
Thousands of citizens have said they aim to sue the leader of Poland's governing Law and Justice (PiS), after he called the party's opponents "Poles of the worst kind."

Good, they should all sign it and put their addresses in as well, no need for proscription lists - they'll do it all themselves! Just lovely!
Harry    
15 Dec 2015  #205
they should all sign it and put their addresses in as well, no need for proscription lists - they'll do it all themselves!

Perhaps you'd like us to all wear badges to identify ourselves? Aren't upside-down red triangles traditional for our kind of Pole?
Ironside 47 | 9,250    
15 Dec 2015  #206
Another threat from Ironside?

Do you have an obsession or just cannot help yourself? Do you suffer from a persecution complex?

I'm only expressing hope that they will do what they say they will do.

Aren't upside-down red triangles traditional for our kind of Pole?

For you and you kind I picture the three-pronged hat with bells on the end all in vibrant red.
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,181    
15 Dec 2015  #207
Another fine example of insults when things don't go the way of PiS.

Results of polls largely depend on who is ordering them. That's just the way it is here. You will see that soon.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #208
Of course, of course. Any excuse.

Still waiting for your aerial pictures of the PiS march on Sunday, by the way.

Polonius - on that website I gave you, I also found this - ewybory.eu/sondaze/ - the current trend (ignoring actual numbers) seems to be that PiS are level with PO/Nowoczesna combined. Society is very much split down the middle at the minute.
OP Polonius3 1,007 | 12,507    
15 Dec 2015  #209
split down the middle at the minute.

Do you think it's good to maintain or even deepen polarisaiton? It's been going on since PO went bonkers after losing in 2005 and deepened over Smolensk 5 years later. Shouldn't attempts be made to seek compromise and broaden national? In actuality both sides have dug into their trenches and are unwilling to budge. That never bodes well for national accord. That is usually the prelude to war.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 Dec 2015  #210
My biggest fear is that if we don't see some common sense soon (and it has to come from Duda!) - we're going to end up with a "battle of laws". There was something similar in the dying days of the USSR and Yugoslavia - the central government was passing one set of laws, while the individual republics were ignoring those laws and doing their own thing. In this case, we could see the individual provinces refusing to implement laws - or implementing them in a completely different way to what is intended. There's already significant opposition to some of the centralisation efforts of PiS - this could easily become a battleground in future.

As well, the way that the Polish tax system is set up means that the individual tax offices receive quite a lot of income. What would happen if - for example - Wielkopolska held back the tax revenue and refused to transfer it to Warsaw? This would cause complete carnage.

War isn't possible (NATO would never agree to let the government put tanks on the streets), but PiS need a crash course on sensitivity. It's just too much, too fast for the electorate.



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