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Poland's post-election political scene


Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,741
It clearly states that a law whose constitutionality is about to be evaluated enjoys the presumption of constituionality.

Why do you insist on telling this lie so many times? Do you think that if you repeat it enough times it will stop being a lie? I keep telling you: laws are not presumed to be constitutional until ruled otherwise. If your lie was true, a government could simply pass a law saying that only women can be Constitutional Court judges and then refuse to accept the verdict of the Constitutional Court ruling that law unconstitutional because an insufficient number of legally approved judges voted on it. Such tactics might work in the banana republics of your own continent (most of which are funded by your own government), but here in Europe we do things differently: it's all about the rule of law, not the rule of the Party.

the TK acted in violation of the bindign amended law.

No, it did not, as is clear to everybody not blinded by their love of PIS.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,742
Why do you insist on telling this lie so many times?

Why do you insist on telling this lie so many times? The TK function in accordance with the binding law, not some antiquated one it happens to fancy. By not abiding by the binding legal requirement to conduct their deliebrations with a 13-member panel the TK broke the law, hence all their rulings issued in that mode are illegal. Do you think if you keep repeating your bklatant lie, 12 will somehow automatically become 13 or no-one will notice the ruse? Full stop.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
27 Apr 2016 #1,743
Polish citizens in the US

Who emigrated in the 1980s for example, and who should not have a voice.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,744
who should not have a voice

What makes you an alien feel authorised to pontificate about who may and may not vote in Polish elections? Nearly all countries allow their citizens to vote wherever they may be living, so why should Poland be any different.
Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,745
Why do you insist on telling this lie so many times?

You claim I'm lying but my position is supported by every court in the land, including the supreme court. Which courts support your lie? None.

The TK function in accordance with the binding law

It operates first and foremost in accordance with the constitution and applicable law. And has operated in accordance with the constitution and applicable law. As is is demonstrated by the statements of other courts.

the TK broke the law,

No it did not, as is demonstrated by the statements of other courts, which have decided that the actions of the TK were completely correct and entirely legal.

Sorry but The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski doesn't get to decide who did and did not break the law: courts decide who did and did not break the law (and then The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski tells that cat Duda to pardon anybody when he disagrees with a guilty verdict).

If your version of reality were to be true, a government could simply pass a law saying that only women can be Constitutional Court judges and then refuse to accept the verdict of the Constitutional Court ruling that law unconstitutional because an insufficient number of legally approved judges voted on it. Clearly that's the kind of rubbish that only a banana republic from your continent would approve of. Why do you think Poland should follow the standards of a banana republic from your continent?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,746
applicable law

An outdated law is not applicable. PM Szydło could be put in prison if she printed an illegal TK ruling. Courts are part of a judicial mafia taking part in the anti-PiS campaign.
Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,747
An outdated law is not applicable.

Instead of just parroting what The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski wants the lovers of PIS to chant, why don't you tell us, if your banana republic version of reality were to come to pass, what would stop a government passing a law saying that only women can be Constitutional Court judges and then refusing to accept the verdict of the Constitutional Court ruling that law unconstitutional because an insufficient number of legally approved judges voted on it? Come on, we'd all love to see you try to answer that one.

PM Szydło could be put in prison if she printed an illegal TK ruling.

No she can't. In Poland only courts have the power to put people in prison and the courts have said that the TK's actions were completely legal. The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski wants to have the power to put people in prison but here in Poland only courts have that power (although The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski can order that cat Duda to tell the courts to release people from prison).

Courts are part of a judicial mafia taking part in the anti-PiS campaign.

No, Poland's courts are part of the rule of law; The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski clearly wants the rule of The Party rather than the rule of law but he'll have to wait for the Fourth Reich for that. Oops, I mean the Fourth Republic.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,748
that only women

You forgot to add one of your typical nonsensical for-instances such as the TK ruling that onyl Negro homos or Oriental lesbos can vote....
The TK violated the law by having only 12 judges present.
Courts are not sacrosanct. Courts and judges have their own axes to grind and know what side their bread is buttered on. They are now banking on the opposition rather than the government. Time will tell whether or not they have shot themselves in the foot.

outdated law is not applicable

Now it's final. The District Prosecutor's Office has drafted a statement ascertaining
that PM Szydło was not obliged to publish the TK's ruling which was illegal by virtue of not meeting the required quorum of judges. Just in case in your "impeccable" Polish you doubt my paraphrase of the statement, here it is in the original:

Projekt decyzji Prokuratury Okręgowej w Warszawie wskazuje, że orzeczenie TK zostało wydane w nieprawidłowym składzie sędziowskim, w związku z tym rząd nie ma obowiązku go publikować.

Zdaniem śledczych, nowelizacja ustawy o TK autorstwa PiS obowiązywała sędziów Trybunału, a niezastosowanie się do niej sprawiło, że wyrok nie ma mocy prawnej i premier Beata Szydło miała prawo odmówić jego publikacji.
Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,749
Negro homos or Oriental lesbos

Instead of just resorting to homophobic slurs in the hope of driving this discussion off-topic, just answer the question: if your banana republic version of reality were to come to pass, what would stop a government passing a law saying that only women can be Constitutional Court judges and then refusing to accept the verdict of the Constitutional Court ruling that law unconstitutional because an insufficient number of legally approved judges voted on it?

Every time you refuse to answer the question makes it more and more clear that you know precisely what the answer is bit you can't tell us because The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski says that the answer is different.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,750
banana republic

Such rubbish (bald Afro homo -- you used some such weird example in the past) oes not even deserve a reply. The Prosecutor's Office have carefully investigated the matter and found the TK ruling to be illegal. Old ex-commie Rzepliński can huff and puff all he wants but his illegal ruling is not binding on the PM or anyone else.
Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,751
The Prosecutor's Office have carefully investigated the matter and found the TK ruling to be illegal.

Oh dear, you appear to have very fundamental problems understanding the basics of Polish law. Here's a little hint: the prosecutor's office does not decide what is and is not illegal; courts decide what is and is not illegal, just as the TK decides what is and is not constitutional.

Old ex-commie Rzepliński can huff and puff all he wants but his illegal ruling is not binding on the PM or anyone else.

Fortunately for those of us who favour rule of law over rule of The Party, the courts have already stated that all rulings of the TK will be binding on everybody.

Such rubbish ... oes not even deserve a reply.

So you mean that it's utterly obvious to even you that the TK doesn't have to follow unconstitutional laws, otherwise nothing would stop a government passing a law saying that only women can be Constitutional Court judges and then refusing to accept the verdict of the Constitutional Court ruling that law unconstitutional because an insufficient number of legally approved judges voted on it.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,752
a law saying that only women

How about only bald women lesbian basketball players who weigh at least 100 kg.
Or Chinese woodcutters who speak Spanish fluently and are piano virtuosos.
Or loudmouth Anglo-expat baldies who quaff scotch, speak broken Polish and claim ethnicity is based not on cultrue, upbringing and DNA but on plastic cards....

Any more "clever" Harryesque for-instances....?
BTW I stand by the PM of the democratically elected government of the Republic of Poland, not by some ex-commie who heads the Jaruzelski-spawned TK.
Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,753
How about

How about you just answer the question? If your banana republic version of reality were to come to pass, what would stop a government passing a law saying that only women can be Constitutional Court judges and then refusing to accept the verdict of the Constitutional Court ruling that law unconstitutional because an insufficient number of legally approved judges voted on it?

loudmouth Anglo-expat baldies who quaff scotch, speak broken Polish and claim ethnicity is based not on cultrue, upbringing and DNA but on plastic cards....

Your off-topic ad hom trolling only goes to further emphasize that you know the answer to the question you refuse to answer, and you refuse to answer the question because the answer is different to the one The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski wants the lovers of PIS to chant.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,754
insufficient number of legally approved judges

Becuase that is breaking the law. 13 is legal, 12 is not. These are not just random figures, they are binding legal requirements. And don't start your stupid if the govt this or that. If they were to rule on a law saying only midgets could join the TK, they still woudl have to hae 13 judges present. They didn't, so their ruling was illegal. Full stop!
Ironside 50 | 10,940
27 Apr 2016 #1,755
How about you just answer the question?

How about you shut your pie hole? Talking disported reality and arguing that the water is dry 'arry? When anybody with a two brain cells together can see that TK is at fault and is taking side in a political strife.
Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,756
Becuase that is breaking the law. 13 is legal, 12 is not.

So, if a law said only women could be supreme court judges, that would be just fine with you, given that the supreme court can't rule that law unconstitutional because it doesn't have enough female members to sit? Surely even somebody utterly blinded by their love of PIS can see how laughable such a situation would be!

they still woudl have to hae 13 judges present.

They can't sit as a panel of 13 judges, because The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski has ordered that cat Duda to swear in three lawfully appointed judges.

They didn't, so their ruling was illegal. Full stop!

No, here in Poland courts, not The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski, say what is and is not legal, and the courts have ruled that the actions of the TK were completely lawful. The illegal actions are being committed by the 'prime minister' and that cat Duda, as the courts have ruled.

How about you shut your pie hole?

Nice of you to also confirm that you can't argue with the facts and so need to resort to personal abuse.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
27 Apr 2016 #1,757
Nearly all countries allow their citizens to vote wherever they may be living, so why should Poland be any different.

Which ones?
Harry
27 Apr 2016 #1,758
obnoxious, bald-as-a-cueball, loudmouth, know-all Anglo-expats...

Would a mod mind if that was replied to in kind?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
27 Apr 2016 #1,759
I wouldn't reply Harry, because the latest news is that the Supreme Administrative Court has also agreed that the Constitutional Tribunal is the highest court in the country.

nsa.gov.pl/komunikaty/uchwala-kolegium-naczelnego-sadu-administracyjnego-z-dnia-27-kwietnia-2016-r,news,4,309.php

The Collegium of the NSA calls for respecting the independence of courts and tribunals in a democratic state of law, which is the Republic of Poland, the authorities are separate and independent from other authorities and uphold civil rights and freedoms.

Polonius, do you really want to see a situation emerge in which we have a war of laws? PiS cannot win - if they attempt to enforce law that the legal system refuses to recognise, then they will push Poland into the abyss for the sake of trying to maintain power.

We now have the situation that the Supreme Court, the Supreme Administrative Court, the Constitutional Tribunal and the Venice Commission have all ruled that the government are in the wrong and that they are obliged to immediately rectify the situation. The only support for the government comes from the public prosecution service (who are directly under the control of the government, and it took them three attempts to find a prosecutor willing to drop the case) and no-one else.

In this case, the judiciary constitute a separate branch of power in Poland and must be respected. The government is not above the rule of law, nor is it the only source of law.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
27 Apr 2016 #1,760
PiS cannot win

We are already seeing that several cities, including Warsaw, are saying they will abide by the law as decreed by the Constitutional Tribunal, and will refuse to adopt the PIS "legislation" as far as it pertains to abuse of the Supreme court ruling.

Oh, but this is fun!
Ironside 50 | 10,940
27 Apr 2016 #1,761
Hmm those people you talking about surly make a lot of splash but they are supported by a tiny percentage of the society in Poland and that is something you are overlooking in your siding with minority who is supported mostly by foreigners and very few Poles.

All those judges should be fired and new people should be appointed in their stead.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
27 Apr 2016 #1,762
We are already seeing that several cities, including Warsaw, are saying they will abide by the law as decreed by the Constitutional Tribunal, and will refuse to adopt the PIS "legislation" as far as it pertains to abuse of the Supreme court ruling.

It essentially means that PiS have to create a new parallel state - they're apparently planning to destroy the court system now and replace it with a whole new court system simply to remove any judges that are opposed to them.

I wouldn't be shocked if the next move is to completely remove funding for the Constitutional Tribunal.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,763
cat Duda

Resorting to insults again against Poland's universally respected, democratically elected Preisdent? From now on you can be "the Hairy Creep". Got a nice ring to it, eh? Or maybe you'd prefer "the Hairless Creep" as more true to life?

And your sarcastic Dear Leader Chariman bollocks are also offensive. Let's see what paraellel title could be composed: Dear Obnoxious Glarehead, or maybe Beloved Loudmouth Blowhard?
Ironside 50 | 10,940
27 Apr 2016 #1,764
wouldn't be shocked if the next move is to completely remove funding for the Constitutional Tribunal.

That would be a good thing too.
Harry
28 Apr 2016 #1,765
I wouldn't be shocked if the next move is to completely remove funding for the Constitutional Tribunal.

I somehow doubt there'll be a shortage of people who'll be willing to put their hands in their pockets to fund the TK. I'd certainly be in for at least a few hundred.

maybe you'd prefer "the Hairless Creep" as more true to life?

It's not me with the comb-over.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
28 Apr 2016 #1,766
comb-over

Nothing dishonourable about that, but blinding people because of the glare, well.....
jon357 66 | 17,078
28 Apr 2016 #1,767
It essentially means that PiS have to create a new parallel state

This is in every way their plan. The treasonous 'Fourth Republic' project...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
29 Apr 2016 #1,768
The amount of cities and provincial parliaments coming out against PiS now is staggering. It seems that a significant part of Poland will now operate according to the rule of law and not the rule of the Party - meaning that we have effectively a dual legal system.

PiS are now threatening city and provincial governments to obey their "law" or else - even though their law is only recognised by them and no-one else.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
29 Apr 2016 #1,769
PiS are now threatening city and provincial governments

As I said - this really is fun, from the outside, looking in. Can't wait for PIS to destroy themselves, as they certainly will :)))
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
29 Apr 2016 #1,770
Oh they certainly will. Threatening the provincial governments is certainly amusing, because it will simply cause them to dig in further. If they try and cut the funding to the provincial governments, then it's quite conceivable that the tax offices in affected provinces will simply stop making transfers to Warsaw.

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