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Poland's post-election political scene


Ironside 50 | 10,939
25 Apr 2016 #1,711
with ONR members

Geez, Maciarewicz is an old school leftist, ONR has nothing to do with him. Majority of them are a very sensible young people and have nothing to do with fascism. Those are facts. What you are saying is just ideologically biased spin.
Harry
25 Apr 2016 #1,712
Majority of them are a very sensible young people and have nothing to do with fascism. Those are facts.

No, that's just a demonstration of how hard it is to get an accurate view of Poland from the other side of the atlantic.
jon357 66 | 17,068
25 Apr 2016 #1,713
Maciarewicz is an old school leftist

An appalling individual. Quite scary that he holds public office.

very sensible young people and have nothing to do with fascism

So the hitler salutes are just stretching their arms...

a demonstration of how hard it is to get an accurate view of Poland from the other side of the atlantic.

Very true.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
25 Apr 2016 #1,714
Majority of them are a very sensible young people and have nothing to do with fascism.

Apart from the symbols, the salutes and the fact that the original ONR was so dodgy that it was banned after 3 months - during a time when Poland was very much right wing. If they were unacceptable for Sanacja, how can you find them in any way acceptable today?

More to the point, Ironside, how on earth can you defend them in any way? They trace their traditions back to the original ONR, which as we as we all know - wasn't supportive of the underground Polish state and some of them even collaborated with the Nazis.

The fortunate thing is that their numbers are still very much limited, but the menace is growing. I've read an article only yesterday about a school director that had to institute bag searches and clothes examinations because of the growing use of the ONR symbols by kids.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
25 Apr 2016 #1,716
ONR is on the right side pretty much what Palikotists and such are on the left.

They are hardly comparable. I don't recall anyone on the Left using such offensive and vile rhetoric. I'm not surprised that you're defending them, seeing as they're perfect 21st Century ZOMO troops for PiS, but still.

Nonsense.

What a surprise to see that you support an organisation that was openly hostile towards the Polish underground state. Such "patriots" always reveal their true colours in the end, usually while wearing the boots to stamp on the face of others.
cms 9 | 1,271
26 Apr 2016 #1,717
Back in the real world we see today a very worrying growth in the deficit and govt expenses at a record high as they hand out their electoral pork and also pay off the sacked officials who did nothing wrong apart from not being members of PiS. Receipts from the new bank tax are 30% less than expected as the banks obviously dealing with the effects of a weak zloty - on top of that there is still no credible way to fund the 500+. The government are economic illiterates and within a few months people will care much more about that than they do about abortion, the president's love life or poisoned horses.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Apr 2016 #1,718
how hard it is to get an accurate view of Poland

... Also how hard it is to get an accurate view of Poland when one has the wrong DNA, wrong upbrinigng, wrong sensibilties, religious views, lifestyles and habits imported from a culturally alien country. Someone born and raised in a good, Polish-speaking Polonian home in Canada, the US or even Brazil, who is keenly interested in and follows Polish affaris on the net and paritcipates in Polonian cultural life, is far more a Pole than any hairy or hairless Anglo-alien wannbe bombsastically brandishing some silly plastic card or paper booklet.
jon357 66 | 17,068
26 Apr 2016 #1,719
a very worrying growth in the deficit and govt expenses at a record high as they hand out their electoral pork and also pay off the sacked officials who did nothing wrong apart from not being members of PiS

Absolutely agreed - it was the same last time.

The government are economic illiterates and within a few months people will care much more about that than they do about abortion, the president's love life or poisoned horses

Again, spot on. We should be very careful though - PiS have made very clear their contempt for democracy and we can expect them to use all sorts of dirty tricks too stay in power. Last time they were booted out mid-term by the voters; they hate elections and would do anything in their power to stay in office without them.

DNA

Polonian

Don't be silly.

some silly plastic card or paper booklet.

Presumably you mean the passport that you would not be given.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
26 Apr 2016 #1,720
any hairy or hairless Anglo-alien wannbe bombsastically brandishing some silly plastic card or paper booklet.

Your choice of words here is very careful and very reckless at the same time ...
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Apr 2016 #1,721
passport that you would not be given

You've heard the story about the Jew woefully swaying and praying: "Almighty God, I have been praying fervently to you for so many years, I religiously observe the Sabath and follow all your commandments, but I have never once won a lottery!"

Thereupon a voice boomed down from heaven: "BUY A LOTTERY TICKET!"

The moral of the story is: to get one of those trinkets one has to apply. If they gave one to your hairless guru, they'll give them to anyone. He probably can't even say the "Ojcze nasz" in Polish and has probablły never read a single book in his "native" (?!) Polish.
Wulkan - | 3,250
26 Apr 2016 #1,722
So the hitler salutes are just stretching their arms

It's like saying every left winger is gay because you can see plenty of them when they march.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
26 Apr 2016 #1,723
hitler salutes

It's actually an ancient Roman salute...

Another example of free speech banned in the West - in Germany using this salute is punishable by up to 3 years in prison as are dozens of symbols including the Celtic Cross, certain runes but of course no ban on Al-Qaeda flags.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
26 Apr 2016 #1,724
Now things are getting interesting.

Poland's Supreme Court has ruled that they will abide by the judgements of the Constitutional Tribunal.

pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,511770,sedziowie-sn-nawet-nieopublikowane-wyroki-tk-obalaja-domniemanie-konstytucyjnosci-przepisu.html

I can't translate this properly -

Nieopublikowany wyrok Trybunału Konstytucyjnego o niekonstytucyjności jakiegoś przepisu uchyla domniemanie jego zgodności z konstytucją już z chwilą ogłoszenia wyroku - głosi wtorkowa uchwała Zgromadzenia Ogólnego Sędziów Sądu Najwyższego.

But loosely translated, it means that the Supreme Court has declared that laws/decrees deemed unconstitutional by the Constitutional Tribunal are unconstitutional from the moment of ruling and not from the moment of publication. Therefore, all rulings of the Constitutional Tribunal are legally in effect, meaning that the government is now obliged by law to enact the rulings of the Constitutional Tribunal.

In plain English, either PiS has to follow the law, or they will be responsible for creating a parallel legal system that isn't recognised by the judiciary, which is independent of the government in Poland.

PiS have said that there will be an emergency amendment to the Constitutional Tribunal law in the Sejm to take into account what has been ruled by the Supreme Court. It looks like PiS have finally backed down, but we'll see.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
26 Apr 2016 #1,725
An appalling individual

De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum.

So the hitler salutes are just stretching their arms...

What is the Hitler salutes? They are ordering some refreshments - coffee for me, and me!

the original ONR was so dodgy that it was banned after 3 months - during a time when Poland was very much right wing.

Hmm.. given a fact that at the time Poland was under rule of an authoritarian government which came to power after a coup, your reasoning on a shaky ground here.

The same goes for that right wing label. That coup in 1926 had been supported by Socialist, Communists, all kinds of left wing entities plus by minorities (including Jews). The only people who would call that government a right wing were Bolsheviks at the time (to whom all parties were right wing except for themselves) and ideologically biased people today who have no clue.

It wasn't doggy, it was student/young people organization. Rmemebr that there were two organization called ONR, ONR (proper) and ONR - phalange. Obviously present day ONR looks for inspiration to traditions of ONR (proper).

If they were unacceptable for Sanacja, how can you find them in any way acceptable today

You must have a very queer view about Sancja. As to today there is noting that would make them unacceptable as far as I know.

original ONR, which as we as we all know - wasn't supportive of the underground Polish state and some of them even collaborated with the Nazis.

According to Soviet propaganda not to facts.

The fortunate thing is that their numbers are still very much limited, but the menace is growing

Yes, young people in Poland are catching up to their traditions and that is a good thing.

yesterday about a school director that had to institute bag searches and clothes

I hope that those kids are really kids that is they are underage, Otherwise I see a court case brewing

Back in the real world we see today

You kinda bring forth some argument but those are pseudo arguments. There is nothing new, nothing that their predecessors haven't done with abundance, somehow you were very quiet then. So forgive me but there is that funny thing while I'm reading your posts I hear nothing but squalling of a pig that lost her easy feed.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
26 Apr 2016 #1,726
The government are economic illiterates

It might, might, just prove to be a blessing in disguise. Kaczyński won't be able to handle the economy crashing down, and the opposition is all over them in terms of scrutinising absolutely every aspect of the economy. It's not inconcievable that Morawiecki will demand the Prime Minister's job - but he will want real power and not figurehead power. After a few months, including the cancelling of the 500+ programme - it's quite possible that Morawiecki would lead a breakaway group from PiS into a minority technocratic government passively supported by the opposition.

Either way, we're about to watch Poland's reserves being looted to fund misguided social promises.
Harry
26 Apr 2016 #1,727
Obviously present day ONR looks for inspiration to traditions of ONR (proper).

Well, given that it was ONR (proper) that were the perpetrators of the 1940 Easter pogrom in Warsaw, you really aren't giving much confidence to those of us who choose to live in Poland, are you.

Either way, we're about to watch Poland's reserves being looted to fund misguided social promises.

Poland as the Christ of Nations again, this time being crucified due to the sins its people committed by not bothering to vote.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
26 Apr 2016 #1,728
Well,

Well, if you're afraid of becoming a victim of a pogrom in Poland you should leave immediately.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Apr 2016 #1,729
the government in Poland.

Assuming that somehow the govt recongises the TK's rulings, what if the TK and their nasty and vindictive Head Judge Rzepliński try to malicously contest every signle law enacted by the Sejm. The resultant chaos would only make the equally mean-spirited and vindictive KODists, banksters and foreign-interest lobbyists happy, eager to regain what they regard as their rightful positon, perks, privileges and profits. But it surely wouldn't be good for the Polish nation as a whole.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
26 Apr 2016 #1,730
what if the TK and their nasty and vindictive Head Judge Rzepliński try to malicously contest every signle law enacted by the Sejm.

Ignoring the loaded language (Rzepliński is not 'nasty and vindictive', he's simply doing his job in accordance with the law) - it's highly unlikely that the Constitutional Tribunal would behave in that way. They aren't controlled by PiS, and it says a lot about the mentality of PiS that you're even thinking about the possibility of them blocking everything in sight.

I wouldn't be terribly shocked if Szydło now gets dismissed as Prime Minister on the grounds that it was her government that caused this scandal.

Surprise, surprise. The Finance Minister now wants VAT to remain at 23% next year.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Apr 2016 #1,731
in accordance with the law

Yes, but which law? The Rzepliński gang ruled according to an outdated one which allowed for a 12-man panel. The upgraded law required a 13-person panel. To legally declare a law unconstitutional they would have had to conform to the amended version requiring a 13-member panel. We've been over this many times and could argue for either side until hell freezes over.

Surprise, surprise

Surprise, surprise! I remember how vehemently you protested after Tusk came to power pledging not to raise taxes and then turns round and increases the Value Added Tax. Boy did you eved rant, rave and fume againsts that two-faced, lying hypocrite. Remember?

Surprise, surprise

Harry
26 Apr 2016 #1,732
could argue for either side until hell freezes over.

You, Po, could indeed keep arguing that a clearly unconstitutional law should be followed; however, it has now been made crystal clear by the Polish legal establishment that they will not be following such laws and that they will support the rule of law instead of the rule of the Party.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
26 Apr 2016 #1,733
We've been over this many times and could argue for either side until hell freezes over.

There's nothing left to argue about. The Supreme Court has ruled that they will abide by the Constitutional Tribunal's decisions, meaning that the legality of the Constitutional Tribunal's ruling has been confirmed by the two highest courts in the country. There's nothing more to discuss now - PiS cannot override the rulings of the judiciary. The only way for them to change things now would be to change the Constitution - which they are welcome to do so.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Apr 2016 #1,734
clearly unconstitutional law

Read the Polish law preferably in the original or use Google translate. It clearly states that a law whose constitutionality is about to be evaluated enjoys the presumption of constituionality. In simple English plain enough for even for you to understand ,that means that no law is either constitutional or unconstitutional a priori. It must first be reviewed by the 13-member TK panel. Had the TK proceeded according to the amended and binding law, the PiS TK law could have been legally declared unconstitutional. Since Rzepliński mucked up, we've got the fine kettle of fish we've got! Verstanden? Poniał? Compris? Hai capito? Zroumiano? If not, please re-read the above veeeery, slooowly and maybe you'll get it. If not, ask Delph!

blessing in disguise

So it's true. You wish the Polish people ill. Anyone gloating over a longed-for economic crash has to be a malevolent ill-wisher. Anyone hoping for a return of the bloodsucker regime re-attaching Poels to the leash of their foredign masters is clearly anti-Polish! You, Delph, fit the bill to a T! To you it's all a game. Time and again you have said things like: here comes the fun or let's sit back and enjoy the show. Poland is not a computer game, sitcom or wrestling match, it's a serious business which should not be treated lightly or joked about. It doesn't exist for the amusement of addle-brained expats who don't have a life and require such ersatz entertainment.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
26 Apr 2016 #1,735
It clearly states that a law whose constitutionality is about to be evaluated enjoys the presumption of constituionality.

It's actually addressed in the Venice Commission's decision. I forget the Latin term used, but there's a principle that such a law should not enter into effect until it's had a chance to be evaluated.

edit : found it - 'vacatio legis'. It refers to the time between the passing of the law and the introduction of the law. In this case, the absence of such a period is pretty much a no-no in European law in peacetime.

- the Venice Commission has experienced it twice before, and they have ruled consistently that judges on a Constitutional Court must be allowed to judge law that affects them, and that the court cannot be intentionally paralysed. It's all here - venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD%282016%29001-e - paragraphs 40-43 explain it perfectly.

But it's all academic. The judiciary now will respect the TK's decisions, several major cities will follow the TK's decisions - in short, PiS now have to decide whether they want to establish a legal system in which the courts are opposed to the government, or if they will respect the independence of the judiciary (including the Constitutional Tribunal) and run Poland like a normal country with checks and balances.
50% Polka
27 Apr 2016 #1,736
you are either controlled by central bank zionist or you are not. Which one is it?
cms 9 | 1,271
27 Apr 2016 #1,737
In my case "not"
pweeg3
27 Apr 2016 #1,738
and paritcipates in Polonian cultural life, is far more a Pole than any hairy or hairless Anglo-alien wannbe bombsastically brandishing some silly plastic card or paper booklet

In your head.

You contribute nothing to Poland unless you live in Poland and pay Polish taxes.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
27 Apr 2016 #1,739
You contribute nothing to Poland unless you live in Poland and pay Polish taxes.

But criminally, they give Polonia the vote :(
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Apr 2016 #1,740
Constitutional Court must be allowed to judge law that affects them

The Venice Commission, bombarded by the vindictive oppositon and anti-government press plus the bounce-back effect of Michnik-repeating Western media, failed top notice one crucial point: that the TK acted in violation of the bindign amended law. Their verdict was therefore illegal. Full stop.

they give Polonia the vote

No, only Polish citizens in the US may vote in Polish eelctions. 90% of Polonia are US-born and cannot.

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