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Poland's post-election political scene


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
22 Jul 2017 #3,691
vindictiveness

Vindictivness is the middle name of the mean-sprited "total opposition" who want to get even for losing the election. But with whom? PiS or the Polish nation which in mid-October 2017 announced in no uncertain terms: "PLATFORMIE JUŻ DZIĘKUEJMY. PLATFORMA MOŻE ODEJŚĆ!"

PO leader Schetyna has actually gone so far as to threaten MPs who voted for the judicial reforms with 5-year prison terms. PO keeps reminding us of PiS' "TKM" byword, but at least PiS did not qustion the voter's verdict of 2007. PO have openly rejected the Polish nation's democratic choice and have done everything possible to undermimne, sabotage and even overthrow Poland's legal, democratically elected government.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
22 Jul 2017 #3,692
waves of protest at the current attack on democrac

A tiny squeak by groups of liberals, leftists and ex-commies in this overwhelmingly Catholic, conservative nation of 38 million. They are defending not democracy but commie judges and their own post-PO clique. The whole nation would gladly chant "wolne sądy, wolne sądy" if it meant "wolne sądy od komuchów"."

Never forget, lower-case, that in Poland "liberał" is almost a swear word!
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
22 Jul 2017 #3,693
A tiny squeak by groups of liberals,

Exactly. Waves of protests lol. 20k people while 38 milion is fine with changes lolololololol
cms 9 | 1,271
22 Jul 2017 #3,694
You realise it is possible to be a practicing catholic and still be strongly opposed to those anti democratic, middle of the night actions ?

38 million are not in favor - in a single issue opinion poll by TVN only 29 perc not thought the president should sign this law. There are many decent PiS voters who oppose it, including at a guess some of the poor secretaries and assistants of the sitting judges who will be out of a job as a result of Jarek's desire for revenge.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
22 Jul 2017 #3,695
Exactly. Waves of protests lol. 20k people while 38 milion is fine with changes

By that train of thought most people in Poland were fine with the PRL.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
22 Jul 2017 #3,696
in a single issue opinion poll by TVN only 29 perc not thought the president should sign this law.

Firstly TVN LOL
Secondly 29% is less than a 3rd of the population and democracy is the rule of MAJORITY.

By that train of thought most people in Poland were fine with the PRL.

Stupid. How come new law is any bad? The Supreme Court of Germany is fully elected by POLITICIANS. 16 judges are apointed by Bundestag and another 16 are apointed by Lands' ministers. Additionally the Minister of Justice has a right to dismiss any one of them singlehandedly. You seem to believe that Germany (and fe. Italy where the case is similar) is PRL. LOL
mafketis 24 | 9,387
22 Jul 2017 #3,697
Stupid. How come new law is any bad?

Cause it subordinates judges to the ruling party (any ruling party).

If you didn't have your ridiculous tvn phobia they've actually gone into detail on how other countries have checks and balances built into the system that the new Polish system doesn't have, it's just transparent politicization of the courts so they'll rule in the government's favor or be replaced (and maybe throw out election results that displease the current government). It's the PRB Polska Rzeczpospolita Bananowa.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
22 Jul 2017 #3,698
@mafketis
All i hear is "Kwiii! Kwii! Kwii!". Pigs whining about the koryto taken away from them. Hehehe. It's too funny! :)

Cause it subordinates judges to the ruling party (any ruling party).

And what do you think about Germany?!?! Those politicians pick in judges that suit them too!!! Even in USA it's obvious that the president appoints 9 judges that are favs to him not to the opposition!
mafketis 24 | 9,387
22 Jul 2017 #3,699
And what do you think about Germany?!?!

It was explained by someone on this thread or a similar one how different that case is . Look it up and come back here. It'll do you good!
mafketis 24 | 9,387
22 Jul 2017 #3,701
From the book: Things igorant people say:

Ahahahah

NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
22 Jul 2017 #3,702
@mafketis
From the life teachings.
People from far away talking about what is good or bad for other countries are simply dumb
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
22 Jul 2017 #3,703
coherent political arguments

Their lack has been the "total oppositon's" downfall. Former Polish Justice Minister and Attorney General Barbara Piwnik has said that although she had doubts about the controversial new laws on the judiciary, there have been no good counter- proposals, and debate has become too emotional.

"If there is no balanced, reasonable counter-proposal, if you do not undertake a factual discussion -- I freely admit it's a little unpleasant to hear only emotions being thrown back and forth, when it comes to the justice system, that leads to the situation we have today," she told Polska The Times.
Nojas 4 | 110
22 Jul 2017 #3,704
The Swedish alternative media outlet Fria Tider have an article on the subject:

friatider.se/l-t-polen-g-ra-upp-med-kommunismen

I had no idea how shockingly corrupt the Polish judicial system is, after that I can understand why there's a will to change it.

Old communist judges who themselves appoint their successors.
Handing out properties in Warsaw to themselves based on false evidence.
Cannot be convicted for criminal activities conducted.
Throwing out criminal cases against friends, family and important people of establishment.
The whole Amber Gold scheme.

There's always a risk involved with politicians having to much influence, but this is the doing of an old communist establishment which needs to be dealt with obviously.

By the way, why is it ok for the politicians in Germany and Sweden to appoint judges but not in Poland?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
22 Jul 2017 #3,705
middle of the night actions ?

You apparently have failed to notice it was the "total opposition's" obstructionism, repeated calls for recesses, stalling, foot-dragging, disrupting the business at had, switching off lights, singing, swamping the presidum with 1,300 proposed amendments, throwing paper balls as in primary school, etc., etc. that caused the proceedings to drag into the night.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
22 Jul 2017 #3,706
By the way, why is it ok for the politicians in Germany and Sweden to appoint judges but not in Poland?

Because those protests are not against the new law but against PiS. Opposition still cant shake off the terrible loss in elections and when having no programme they just incite and play on the emotions of those brainwashed by leftist media.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
22 Jul 2017 #3,707
are not against the new law but against PiS

Although simple and straight forward, that observation is downright brilliant! The more so that it was lost on both sides of the Great Polish-Polish Divide. PO kept attacking the reforms and PiS triefd to explain why they were beign carried out. The bottom line is that if it wasn't judicial reofrms it'd be something else. The resentful and frustrated opposition simply reject their 2015 defeat at the polls but have proved incapable of producing any credible rival programme to compete with what the PiS good-change government are doing.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
22 Jul 2017 #3,708
The bottom line is that if it wasn't judicial reofrms it'd be something else. The resentful and frustrated opposition simply reject their 2015

If it was PO ruling and coming up with such reforming legislation (although it was impossible for that impotent party to come up with even one decent one) the'd defend it with their bare chests. Bunch of hypocrite swines no longer at the koryto :)
jon357 66 | 17,078
22 Jul 2017 #3,709
that in Poland "liberał" is almost a swear word!

Maybe in your house. Others would point to Poland's centuries old liberal tradition, and to the liberal outlook of Pilsudski himself.

Cause it subordinates judges to the ruling party (any ruling party).

Of course. Remember however that this is exactly what they want, that and one Party rule. When they're voted out eventually and that self same law is used against them, there will be an almighty "waaaaah" from those PiS functionaries who find themselves on the other side of a system of their own making.
cms 9 | 1,271
22 Jul 2017 #3,710
Why is a Swedish far right site a good source ?

The German govt does not select judges. Already discussed.

I have no idea about Sweden - says that the govt picks them but I don't think they can fire them. In any case the Swedish system has been. In place since 1840 and thus presumably independence is guaranteed.

This is a key reform, supported by only 29 percent of the population. It was introduced In a rushed way, full of errors and contractictions with existing law. It simply cannot be compared to any system in the EU, Canada, America etc. If you want to find comparisons try Belarus, Saudi, Venezuela, Malaysia.
Lyzko 29 | 7,282
22 Jul 2017 #3,711
In comparison with the US however, Germany (not sure about Poland in this respect) appoints "professional" jurors (Schoeffen) to serve behind closed doors before a judge renders the final decision. This is presumably to insure a carefully and accurately arrived at verdict, impartiality not being an issues as it is here in the States.
jon357 66 | 17,078
22 Jul 2017 #3,712
If you want to find comparisons try Belarus, Saudi, Venezuela, Malaysia.

Yes!

What can we expect from a party led by a former student of Communist law, who got the highest mark possible in Marxist Philosophy, quoting Marx and Lenin in his dissertation, being employed by the Communist Instytut Polityki Naukowej (Institute of Political Science), and was since childhood a Communist mascot: a child star of Communist cinema, living in a villa given to his family by Communists in the worst Stalinist era?
Ironside 50 | 10,940
22 Jul 2017 #3,713
This is a key reform, supported by only 29 percent of the population

Really? Were have you took this number from ? The fact is that people are you are n favour the current corrupt system bevosue it allow you to thrive. So stop your BS act of a good uncle.
cms 9 | 1,271
22 Jul 2017 #3,714
From a poll by Millward Brown, commissioned by TVN. If you have an alternative source of info as to support for this measure then you can post a link to it it here.
jgrabner 1 | 75
22 Jul 2017 #3,715
the Minister of Justice has a right to dismiss any one of them singlehandedly

no. Judges on the German TK (BVerfG) are elected by parliament for a single 12-year term and they cannot be removed before their term ends. A judge only loses his job after a criminal conviction. In reality of course, the government chooses the judge and election by parliament is mostly a formality since the goverment's part(ies/y) has a majority.

This is the same process as in all other western countries. Appointment is by democratically elected officials, but removal is not possible.

That now in Poland it should be possible for the goverment to cancel the terms of already serving judges on the TK is an anomaly, but one could argue that it might be prudent to make a one-off restart in order to eliminate the remaining remnants of the PRL. A restart that should have been performed at least 25 years ago though.
cms 9 | 1,271
22 Jul 2017 #3,716
What would be prudent about removing everybody with experience immediately ?

How many of the judges were in situ in 1989 ?
mafketis 24 | 9,387
22 Jul 2017 #3,717
but removal is not possible.

nobody's talking about 'removal is not possible' in Poland, the whole idea seems to be to allow the government to appoint and dismiss at its pleasure....

How many of the judges were in situ in 1989 ?

JK's motto is the same as Cersei Lannister's: "Everybody who isn't us is an enemy"
Ironside 50 | 10,940
22 Jul 2017 #3,718
From a poll by Millward Brown, commissioned by TVN.

Please (roll my eyes) another BS polls.

What would be prudent about removing everybody with experience immediately ?

Everything, experience in corruption and injustice is not needed in a judiciary system.

nobody's talking about 'removal is not possible' in Poland, t

Really? Have you been on Mars for the last few years or you're just a recent arrival? The main problem of the judiciary system has been zero accountability, substandard services and full bloom of corruption.
jon357 66 | 17,078
28 Jul 2017 #3,720
Good news: PiS backed logging in Białowieża Forest has been banned with immediate effect.

"To stop illegal logging in Białowieża Forest, the Court has imposed 'interim measures'. This extraordinary legal tool halts the actions that are the subject of a legal fight, with immediate effect. The Court uses it very rarely - only in cases where there is a serious risk that these activities could cause significant and irreparable damage."

clientearth.org/eu-court-imposes-emergency-ban-logging-bialowieza-forest/

Everything the PiS junta tries to do fails in the end.

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