Very nice - environmentally friendly, North Africa's additional water supply, and Russian-free. What else can you ask for? Go for it, Germany - good job :)
Fixed.
And, exotic life-forms be damned, imo. Would anyone here complain about the extinction of mosquitoes, Rachel Carson and PETA* excluded? Now consider that other obscure species, while far less annoying, are also quite useless in regards to the economy and the betterment of human lives.
The only marine life of the Baltic that I particularly care for, is the kind that can be fished en masse. And maybe some dolphins.
hs.fi/english/article/A+foreign+policy+black+hole+under+the+Baltic/1135248792996 Nord Stream is much more than just an environmental problem. It's a big geopolitical game with a multitude of undesirable consequences (political, economical, social, environmental etc.)
Merged thread: POLISH CONCERNS OVER NORD STREAM GAS PIPELINE
Something I found online:
"Poland has for several years planned a liquefied natural gas terminal in Swinoujscie, near the border with Germany in northwestern Poland, scheduled for completion in mid-2014. With an initial capacity to deliver 5 billion cubic meters of gas a year, it will be able to meet about one third of Poland's current annual gas consumption, and will be an alternative to Russian gas supplies through existing pipelines on the ground."
Is this legal what Russia and Germany are doing? Are they conspiring to block entry into the future Swinoujscie gas terminal? Discuss as I'd like to hear peoples opinions on this matter.
Countries like Poland and the Ukraine are also receiving Russian gas
And that's the whole point. When Russians had to transport their gas through Ukraine and Belarus they couldn't cut those countries off entirely. When/if nord stream II would be completed, Russians can send it through Nord Stream pipes and cut off Yamal pipeline and put great political and economical pressure on those countries.
The possible anschluss of Belarus by Russia would be one of possible side effects of this deal*
Nord Stream II comes at a price of alienating Poland and Baltic states.
Poland with an LNG terminal and a Baltic Pipe project on the way will be safe from Russian threat and will also become a more natural gas supplier for V4 and 3SI countries than Germany. So you may not even achieve your goal of becoming a gas hub for Central Europe.
German energy projects are decided in Germany. Poland has nothing to say in that. Gas via Norsstream I and II is 30% cheaper than LNG. Your LNG terminals can never compete with NS I and II for exactly that reason.
LNG needs to be liquified, which meeds much energy. Shipped over the ocean, the needs constant cooling to stay liquified. It will always be more expensive.
NS I and II takes weak transitcountries like ukraine and poland the ability to threaten our energy supply.
We dont trust poland to control our energy. Its that easy. And we dont want pay transitfees
Well, he mentioned the fear that Russia could blackmail Europe via North Stream II, that was his one argument against it. The rest was apparantly about Nato, and asking Germany to spend 2% on its' defence.
I have also found artickes that stated that the Sczeczin harbour issue had been solved by late 2017 by a comission.
The blackmailing argument does not hold a lot of water, since Russia only accounts for a relatively small part of Europe's energy supplies, and the European countries nowadays have large emergency storages that could last them for more than a year, enough time to e.g. import it via LNG. Not to mention that this is a very double edged sword. Russia knows that its' only argument against those fears is its' decades long reliability as an energy supplier. Once it loses that status, it would be impossible to get it back. Which would mean the loss of hundreds of bns in revenues over the years. That is huge deterrence for them to pull that stunt, which again might not work that well anyway.
@Ironside You can say what you want, problem is, we dont listen, nor do we have to.
Nordstream II is a german energy project. It doesnt touch polish area and also no sea area. Its totally legal and was agreed to from all nations where their area is touched. Sweden agreed, Denmark agreed. Poland is not involved and thus not asked.
Poland should stick to its own projects and leave us alone.
On a sidenote, the polish attacks against this porject wont be forgotten in Germany. I´m qute sure that a response will follow regarding that.
The bottom line is, that the true arguments for and against NSII are economical. Poland does not want it, because it would lose bns as a transit country and the USA does not want it, because it would like to sell its' gas to Europe. Which are perfectly valid motives. But so are the arguments for NSII, which would save Germany and other countries billions.
I think that free, democratic countries should stop buying gas and coal from Russia altogether. Totalitarian regimes who murder their citizens (sometimes even in foreign countries), kill journalists and invade their neighbours, should be embargoed, despised and isolated by international community. The fact that it doesn't happen in relation to Russia in nothing short of scandalous.
Poland doesn't care much for it. It amounts to some small change in perspective. Let see how it gonna fare. All those huge cost to built it and maintained. Plus what about greens? they are very obedient are they not? lol Aren't underwater pipes threat to nature. A disaster looming for all the sea life out there.
would save Germany and other countries billions.
I have my doubts. If you say so.. Keep feeding Russia so they have money to buy your products.
Come on Pawian, Ironside has been pushed over the edge listening to these bully loudmouths. So have I. I hope you don't get a warning for an OFF - Topic post.
the polish attacks against this porject wont be forgotten in Germany
How about when Trump ask Merkel why she was pumping billions into Russia's military with the purchasing of Russian gas ? That won't be forgotten in NATO either.
Nord Stream is much more than just an environmental problem.
Even though Nord Stream is LP gas the pipeline will eventually decay and leak. Or how about if some large freighter were to drag it's huge anchor across it by accident ? Has anyone done a study on how long it would take to repair or what the impact would be to the environment if it did burst from the high pressure it will take to push that much gas that far ?
I think it only reasonable that Russia and Germany should place a trillion Euro's in an escrow account to be paid to Poland immediately in case there is a loss to Poland's environment because of this pipeline.
I think that free, democratic countries should stop buying gas and coal from Russia altogether.
The problem is - if you stop buying from Russia, then do you do the same with countries such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia?
The bottom line is, that the true arguments for and against NSII are economical
Exactly. It would be much better and far more honest if the Americans admitted that they simply want to force Europeans to pay higher prices for their gas. As for the Poles, the whole thing has always been about the loss of perceived power over the trainsit pipeline.
should stop buying gas and coal from Russia altogethe
By the same logic, we should stop buying oil and gas from all countries that are dictatorships. Which, even if possible, would lead to a significant increase in heating bills for our citizen, thus making unfeasible. Trade with Russia helped eaasing tensions between East and West during the Cold War, and became an important bargaining chip during the negotiations for the withdrawel of the SU from Eastern Europe. And it remains one to this day, because it is one the most effective deterrences we have. Putin knows that he can not afford to lose it, so he will always take this into consideration, e.g. in his policies towards the Baltic states. I've read once that the Baltic states are prepared to destroy NSII if they are invaded, which means that Russia would lose billions, even if the West would still want to buy his gas.
Has anyone done a study
I doubt there are many projects that have been better prepared for this than NSII, precisely because the designers knew that this could be used as an excuse to halt the project. I recently watched a documentation about this. If there is a leak somewhere, the flow of gas can be stopped within a second.
reasonable that Russia and Germany
Do you think Poland does the same in case one of the LNG shipments have an accident, which unlike NSII, often travel through German naval territory? Of course not.
So you say Germany should block its sea area for american LNG tankers heading to Poland? What if one of their tankers sinks in our waters?
Trump has nothing to say about our energy projects either.
You seem to have a problem with capitalism. You are free to offer your LNG on our market and compete with the product russia offers. If your price is better we will buy.
Russians claim that they will finish the missing 160 (out of 2500km) by the beginning of 2021. So without Swiss it will take them 15 months to do so. Some sources claim that they don't have technology to finish it at all.
Just heard that Poland threatened Russia on Nord Strem. According to news seams that Poland intend to confiscate property of Nord Stream 2 if Russia fails to pay 1,43 mlrd US dollars to Polish PGniG company.
Thanks Poland. We here pressuring Russia to put its South Stream in its priority and not to collaborate with Germany. Poland`s move will only strengthen our arguments. Almost that one can say how Poland and Serbia coordinate when it comes to Gasprom. Just squeeze them little more. But not too much.
Russia, is just playing their old psychological game invented decades ago by Stalin, who played it with naive Allies and won on most occasions.
It's an effective combination of deception and brute force ("one must emulate both: the fox and the lion"). They're trying to bend the rules and push the boundaries as much as they can before they meet strict resistance. Before losses become higher than gains. Unfortuantelly for them Poland knows their methods better than anyone else.
All we Poles and Serbs need is to survive and prosper between 1st Rome, 2nd Rome (Constantinople) and 3rdRome. Plus, in all that we have to have in mind that we share same Slavic civilization with Russians and, hope that they also have that in mind. We all share that Roman hate on everything Slavic (ie Sarmatian), no matter all our internal mutual differences.
In this particular case, we would like Russians to refrain themselves from collaborating with Germany. We should be priority to each others.
"Poland's PGNiG lodged a lawsuit to an arbitration court (...) The Stockholm court said the amount Poland had to pay for Russian gas flows was overstated (...) This means that the Russian company will be required to pay back to PGNiG an estimated $1.5 billion"
