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Poland to get the newest version of M1A2 Abrams tank


Oathbreaker 4 | 495
17 Jul 2021 #61
@GefreiterKania
They are still behaving as if Germany is going to invade militarily again *rollseyes*

Only danger for Poland militarily is from the east if Russians will think that Poland's allies are only bluffing with protecting NATO allies
OP GefreiterKania 11 | 1,482
17 Jul 2021 #62
They are still behaving as if Germany is going to invade militarily again *rollseyes*

...or as if they are reading comments about Poland on the German internet! :D

Russians

A lot of their forces are currently bound in Ukraine. Judging by Putin's recent statements they will attempt to solve the "Ukrainian problem" first. Also, they can't weaken Caucasus and Chinese border too much, so that should give us about 4-5 years of relative peace. It might seem like a lot of time, but it isn't. Hence the government spending money like crazy, strenghtening the territorial defence etc.

NATO

If NATO fails to meet their obligations (quite possible with Biden in power and the West full of Putinverstehers) then we'll be alone again as usual.

That's why we have to:

a) make invading Poland unprofitable - it's simple economics, question of money: if winning war against Poland will cost more than benefits the invader would get, they won't invade; *hence the military equipment purchases*

b) make Poland indigestible - if for some reason they invade anyway and, most likely, defeat the professional army, then we need to have underground structures, people ready for partisan warfare, suicide bombers etc. etc. *hence the emphasis on patriotic education at schools and territorial defence build-up*

All in all, for an objective observer, it looks like PiS is preparing for war. Or maybe it's just the case of si vis pacem para bellum usw.
Oathbreaker 4 | 495
17 Jul 2021 #63
@GefreiterKania
Well a war that might come to Poland, like... Again and again... This time! We will be better prepared!

I agree, the Swiss knew how to do it. Finns as well, make it costly AND unprofitable. That way they might finally just leave us alone in peace and prosperity building
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,971
17 Jul 2021 #64
I don't think Germany will just look on should Russia or China or anybody else try something in Poland....our history would not allow it.....we would send what we have, even if it would not be much that at least would make it a NATO case, we are after all still an US military hub...so the US would also need to do something. Poland would not stand alone...
Novichok 3 | 7,532
17 Jul 2021 #65
people ready for partisan warfare,

For this, you will need guns and ammo. I have three. Where can I send them?

Seriously, if partisan warfare is on the table, the Polish government - as a minimum - should make it mandatory for every sane person over 18 to have a couple of AKs and 1000 rounds under the bed, not a hunting rifle at some stupid gun club. With that kind of EU mentality, forget your partisan warfare.

Also, a country without the death penalty is a joke. Before you jump, think WW2 and Nuremberg.

so the US would also need to do something.

...and get dragged by you, stupid Euros, into another bloody mess. Please, die before you call the NATO US desk.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,971
17 Jul 2021 #66
Please, die before you call the NATO US desk.

Nah....we still pay 1%something (about 313 million).....for that we want some service....
AntV 5 | 731
17 Jul 2021 #67
I really think it was more that trumpish demands that people made more annoyed at the tone than the content

Many may not have liked Trump's style, but he was a very effective leader. He got things going and done.

Nah....we still pay 1%something (about 313 million).....for that we want some service

That's the whole point of NATO isn't it--to join together to fight off common enemies. Ergo, the reason the US is not only right to demand all NATO members hold up their end of the bargain, but justifiably so.

P.S. If Oathi is Grunni, could Gef be Torqi--there's some similarities?
Novichok 3 | 7,532
17 Jul 2021 #68
Many may not have liked Trump's style, but he was a very effective leader.

His greatness was proportional to the disdain, contempt, and outright hate coming from Europe. Now, the a-hole in the White House is adored by the Euro weasels, and we are fu*cked - starting with some global bush*it. I forget if it's global warming, cooling, or wetness.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,971
17 Jul 2021 #69
He got things going and done.

Well...he still didn't get his 2 percent and as I have read his successor is busy renouncing Trumps orders....

Now, the a-hole in the White House is adored by the Euro weasels

No, he is not. This infatuation was not comparable to the outright love for Obama and it was over quite quickly. Being "not Trump" is not enough for our "weasels".....
AntV 5 | 731
17 Jul 2021 #70
@BB

No, he didn't get the 2%, but real headway was being made. That stuff doesn't happen over night--takes some time. He did a lot of positive stuff in 4 years time--all the while being attacked domestically by the media and tech, unlike anything seen in our history. I miss the Great Orange Combover!

From what I've seen and read/heard, you're 100% correct, the Biden Syndicate is undoing as much of Trump's agenda as possible. It's scary just how nihilistically neo-marxist this group is.
Novichok 3 | 7,532
17 Jul 2021 #71
Then you are worse than I thought with that Obama crap. Biden is actually better the way Krushchef was better than Stalin. It was Biden who said the other day to the Cubans and Haitians: Don't come! You will not be allowed to stay here.

And no US troops there, either. Good Biden. I was pleasantly surprised.
AntV 5 | 731
17 Jul 2021 #72
I don't think you quite get it, Novichok, it doesn't matter what Biden says. I matters what his syndicate of behind the scenes handlers do. Give it some time, Biden will contradict his statement soon enough.
Novichok 3 | 7,532
17 Jul 2021 #73
I don't think you quite get it, Novichok,

Don't worry. I do get it. My rule one in life is not to trust anyone - especially the Bolsheviks. Biden said it because his handlers told him that if he will not, they are going to lose Congress in 2022.

I am not naive, but it was still good to hear a US president sounding like one.
pawian 190 | 19,117
18 Jul 2021 #74
My rule one in life is not to trust anyone

Exactly, never trust a stranger with your heart. Now your world is in pieces, he`s stolen your pride, and you`re left defeated, and crushed by his lies.
Alien 10 | 1,636
27 Jul 2021 #75
Abrams with gas turbine or diesel engine?
pawian 190 | 19,117
30 Jul 2021 #76
I just read that no negotiations with the American side have ever started. PiS rightards just announced at a press conference they are going to buy 250 tanks and spend 24 billion PLN in them.

Have you ever seen stupider leaders than PIS?
Oathbreaker 4 | 495
30 Jul 2021 #77
@pawian
Well then I expect there won't be any real deal then
Miloslaw 14 | 4,503
30 Jul 2021 #78
I hope not.
This would be a real waste of money for Poland.
But Poland does need to bolster its defence capabilities.
I am no expert.
Do any of you have any suggestiions?
Nuclear?
Oathbreaker 4 | 495
30 Jul 2021 #79
@Miloslaw
I would have voted for an enactment of military drills and training (unarmed) with instructions of what to purchase for usage during such training (on Saturdays).

Like an blueprint how to make an rifle out of wood for training purposes etc. what kind of cloths to wear etc. then allow the formation of training fields build and organized by "Gmina" to point out which area could be used.

Then later on as it's better organized improve from there, what type of equipment would be legal to purchase, what would require a license etc.

Making it as cheap as possible, and as non-funds reliable as possible. Then the government can decide what to do or improve it etc
Miloslaw 14 | 4,503
30 Jul 2021 #80
@Oathbreaker

Poland's defence needs to be thought out by military personel that understand the possible future challenges.Not by politicians.
Novichok 3 | 7,532
30 Jul 2021 #81
Poland's defence needs to be thought out by military personel

...starting with who will be the enemy.
Question 2: How do you use a tank against leftards?
Miloslaw 14 | 4,503
30 Jul 2021 #82
Just fire..... LOL!!!
Oathbreaker 4 | 495
1 Aug 2021 #83
@Miloslaw
I agree, military experts have the most to say in such matters. Alas the final decision is up to the President of Poland, which the ministry of defense takes care of in times of peace. So your very idealistic with your approach, the militaristic faction in Poland is dependent on the good will of the bureaucrats as they are the ones who organize wages, have the most contact with the ministers, and take on the micro scale management of hiring new members in to the army (soldiers, officers, doctors, clerks etc). There are tons of formalities going on and regardless of what the colonel of an army unit wants or pleases, they are stuck and blocked by an ridiculous amount of regulations which bureaucrats can mercilessly use to their advantage at the slightest mistake that's performed.

Since promotions, setting wages and recruitment is supervised by an civilian administration. The needs of the non-civilian part of the military is not only misunderstood but, also actively worked against at every possible step of the way. Going so far as creating an entire new operational military branch "territorialsi"

So the idea I came up with would simply be a way for the military to check out possible new recruits capabilities, without much paperwork (and tax money) and less formalities before anyone of them would be recruited.

It wasn't about creating a new combat unit per say, but an improved method of recruitment so that actual combat units will be more easily created.

The amount of testing and check ups, are rather pointless if it's possible to do it without the use of firearms, by testing of physical skills and the amount of obedience and loyalty a recruit has.

Generals and the like have very little influence with their personal contacts as they are easily countered by regulations. Which again creates a need for party loyalty (the governing one obviously) in case they make a mistake, if they desperately want to keep their station.

Cause of the PRL traditions within the army, connections and the actions during the 1980's when Jaruzelski tried to fix PRL with a firm "army discipline"

Many became quite sceptical and wary of the army cadre (as it was heavily tied to the commie party, but also seemingly with Moscow) and it has been a goal by the labour union parties (PO+PiS) to exchange, drive out or reform the military faction as much as possible while reducing their operational activities as much as possible.

It has been possible thanks to the servile nature of the Polish people's army since it's foundation in the Soviet Union. The tradition was that disobedience+disloyalty lead to excecution.

Thankfully it's not that anymore, but the possibility of getting thrown out at a whims notice. Removing privileges, bonuses and wages which by many soldiers were part of their life plans and throwing them out from the food table they get heavily accustomed to that most grudgingly in fear are careful of doing as little wrong as possible, and punish anyone severely amongst their own if they rat out about anything.

So when journalists not knowing about this, find out about mismanagement or worse. Writes an article and makes them feel better, while an entires lives can get ruined cause of it. Creating arguments for further regulations and more restrictions.

Problem with terrytorialsi in my view, which many are worried about aswell is the high chance of it being mainly an hub for sicophants.

There is no hiding it that one of the main motives behind work in Poland is driven by money, as to how plan their future. Anything threatening it, can easily lead to unnecessary conflicts.
pawian 190 | 19,117
28 Feb 2022 #84
Wasn`t the purchase of Abrams tanks too hasty and badly-thought? Judging by the heroic resistance of Ukrainian defenders against Russian hordes one may think it was. The war proves that heavy technique like tanks is pretty useless not only in urban warfare but also outside cities. Right now Russian tanks blow up as easily as a box of matches.

State of the art tanks seem an impressive symbol of the power of an army but only at parades on national holidays. What Polish army and National Guards need is hundreds of anti-tank launchers. Simple, easy to use, cheap but effective.

Ministry of Defense are going to splash 2.5 billion $ on the equipment to show at parades.

Correct me if I am wrong.
Alien 10 | 1,636
28 Feb 2022 #85
@pawian
No you are not wrong, that was to be expected already after last Armenian/Aserbaijan war.
pawian 190 | 19,117
28 Feb 2022 #86
expected already after last Armenian/Aserbaijan war.

yes, but those conflicts involve Soviet or Russian stuff which was never designed to resist top turret hits. How about Abrams?
Alien 10 | 1,636
28 Feb 2022 #87
I am afraid not much better.
Novichok 3 | 7,532
28 Feb 2022 #88
Correct me if I am wrong.

Your only post that made any sense. Bravo!
pawian 190 | 19,117
28 Feb 2022 #89
The whole post or only its part??? :):):)
Novichok 3 | 7,532
28 Feb 2022 #90
The whole post. I liked "the" the most.


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