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New European Council's report: "Poland oasis of racism, xenophobia and homophobia" ...


delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 May 2016  #181
Ah yes, another poster who understands nothing of Polish law.

Run on, paid PiS troll.
Supernovus    
15 May 2016  #182
If this is what you consider as a polite and matter-of-fact answer then you can even take me for a troll.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 May 2016  #183
matter-of-fact

Except there's no fact there.

PiS are criminals using power to further their own criminal agenda, nothing more.
Crow 146 | 7,594    
15 May 2016  #184
Law and Justice party, which is now ruling Poland as you know, is the party of the strong state - so it is for the state monopoly of violence.

For your information, in every modern country, state violence is legal, even state piracy, while is individual suppressed.

Run on, paid PiS troll.

PiS is ok right now.

You seemingly are unable to grasp what that Intermarium concept is all about but rest easy that Russians are not that slow.

by the Pilsudski`s original concept Intermarium needs to be equilibrium between western Europe and Russia. Then, Anglos sought opportunity to use Intermarium as their suitable tool and proposed Intermarium as anti-Russian creation.

So, i am rather for original concept- Intermarium as point of equilibrium, a chance that those who are interested found common interest and develop independently from western Europe, Russia and other powers. Intermarium as one of centers of multi-polar world. To that Intermarium, China and Russia already gave signals of support.
Chemikiem 5 | 1,200    
15 May 2016  #185
I'm certain what he says they have said to him is not a good and reliable representation of what actually was said to him.

As you said it totally depends on language skills and how it was interpreted, and neither of us can know for sure, but what comes across is that he was definitely judged on the colour of his skin. You see it as that the police were giving him advice - he couldn't expect to be treated in Poland the same as he would in his own country. That is an attitude that needs to change though. That's like saying it's his fault for being attacked because with brown skin, he should have known better than to come to Poland. That does not bode well for holidaymakers!!

However you have a point about things getting lost in translation. I was reading a report, albeit from the mid 2000's, on cases of racist attacks in Poland. Some of those cases went to court, some were just reported to police, but the victims said that one of the main problems they had was that there was a lack of understanding on both sides due to language difficulties.

Let me 'translate' it for you - people in Poland are not used to people of different races and to interact with them.

I agree to an extent, especially outside of cities, but even so, that is no justification for the treatment that Sikh received.
I remember Levi writing on here that he had been stopped in Poland and asked if he was Muslim, and he says that he is light skinned for a Brazilian.

Especially after those attacks in Paris, that created anti-Muslim feelings

It has in all countries Iron, and I can understand this, people are scared, but it's not acceptable that anyone with dark skin should be targeted because they look different. On those grounds you might as well exclude anyone from a southern European country from holidaying in Poland. Or that they should at least think twice about it. That's going to do wonders for tourism.

As I said not very professional but what he was exactly complaining about? That he was denied entry?

Well when the friends you are with have all been admitted to the club, and you are stopped and denied entry, the usual course of action would be to ask why. I would have.

Poland is a relatively save country, safer than UK and I say it again, he wasn't assaulted per se, he just walked into a situation he totally misread. Happens.

Overall yes, Poland is very safe when compared with other countries and it would be nice to think it will stay that way too.
I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion, there are far less racially motivated assaults than in other countries, but they are increasing, that is the problem. No-one would want it to get to the stage where someone is killed in Poland because of their skin colour.

Poland is one of the participating countries which reports hate crime to the ODIHR ( Human rights institution of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe ). The data in the link only goes up to 2014, but clearly shows that hate crime, especially racism and xenophobia is increasing. This is only for reported crimes, I'm sure as is the case in other countries, there are many crimes which go unreported.

hatecrime.osce.org/poland

We are here (at least I know I'm ) for a very simple reason - I disagree with the way that case had been presented.

I could equally the say the opposite, and I daresay the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but Iron, I do get the impression that you don't want to hear a bad word said about how things are conducted in Poland. To a degree that is natural, it's your home country and people often don't want to acknowledge that their country has failings, but Poland isn't perfect,and my country certainly isn't! I am not saying this to cause offence and I hope you don't interpret this as being so. Maybe I see it this way because I've been brought up in a multicultural country, and as such we are both going to have a different take on things.

In the case of the Chilean pianist, you said that probably he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and to a degree that's true, but he was attacked because the bunch of morons who attacked him thought he was an Arab. You can't sweep racist crimes under the carpet and hope they will disappear.

I'm saying that there is no need for such laws in Poland in the foreseeable future.

I think that would depend very much on whether these crimes escalate more than they already have. And crucially, if Poland ends up being forced to take in refugees. We don't know as yet if this will happen, despite Poland refusing to take any, but if it does happen, the situation is going to get worse, I'm sure you can see that.

So all this alleged data he is presenting I wouldn't trust further than I could spit.

I would imagine this data would have to have been documented from reports. If he's not able to back it up, that's going to come back to haunt him.

I highly doubt that is the case

On what basis? I really can't see why it would be made up. The Mayor of Tourism was also concerned about this, not just the Human Rights Ombudsman.

Properly working legal system and the police should be enough improvement for now.

I guess it's see how it goes on this one!

All the best!!
Supernovus    
15 May 2016  #186
For your information: law is not to suppress individuals but to free them from any oppression unless they do not work against the law which is by definition established by the people and for their convenience.

As for the grand projects of what you call the Intermarium - as far as I know, there is no talk about it in the state media.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 May 2016  #187
For your information: law is not to suppress individuals but to free them from any oppression unless they do not work against the law which is by definition established by the people and for their convenience.

Except in this case, the law that was established by the people is being repeatedly and openly broken by the Party.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
15 May 2016  #188
the law that was established by the people

by which people??
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 May 2016  #189
The ones that voted for the Constitution.

We all know that the PiS idea of democracy is that it is secondary to the interests of the Party.
Supernovus    
15 May 2016  #190
Poland is not a one party state. PiS is now ruling but it is not ruling the future. There are not many mad politicians in that party.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 May 2016  #191
PiS is now ruling but it is not ruling the future.

They are certainly trying to do so.

There are not many mad politicians in that party.

They're not mad in the slightest. It's what makes them so dangerous - they want power, and none of them hold any real views.
Supernovus    
15 May 2016  #192
But if they try or pretend to try or appear to try then they are not all powerful as nobody is.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
15 May 2016  #193
The ones that voted for the Constitution.

do you think that most people who voted for constitution read it through at all? and that they gave a thought about how according to the constitution the constitutional tribunal is supposed to look and act like? you must be kidding then?

I actually had a glimpse of the constitution back then and it was a clever ploy by pretending to promise everything while actually promising nothing

and then the constitution doesn't state expressis verbis anywhere what would base the view that President's or the goverment's actions are/were unlawful
Supernovus    
15 May 2016  #194
The Constitution is about the future and a political party should all be about the present. What do you think about it?
Ironside 47 | 9,251    
15 May 2016  #195
You see it as that the police were giving him advice - he couldn't expect to be treated in Poland the same as he would in his own country.

Hmm... I would say that no one should expect to be given privileges in a foreign country over a local population.
Those 'rights' and those laws that he enjoying in his own country created a certain public space for him to what he is used to, and if in a foreign country expected to be given the same public leeway so to speak is an error. Demanding it is just not on, at least to my mind.

That's like saying it's his fault for being attacked because with brown skin, he should have known better than to come to Poland.

Chemikiem I'll make my points (yes, I do have a point to make or two:) just bear with me) after I'll address your points.

I disagree it is as saying - this is not your country, you should tune yourselves better to its ways.
Still, as I have stated repeatedly it is very unprofessional, they shouldn't have said it to him, that is clear and beside the point.

Reading into it something else than poor standards of the police in Poland is a simply misunderstanding of the circumstances and issues involved and is a kind of a cultural prejudice we are all oft guilty off.

Those policemen havening no understanding how that trifle issue (for them) of someone coming to blows with a bouncer (because I'm sure it wasn't first or the last time when someone had some alteration with bouncers) will be viewed abroad, said what they said meaning well.

I agree to an extent, especially outside of cities, but even so, that is no justification for the treatment that Sikh received.

You see but that bouncer was perfectly within his rights to deny him the entry. You might not like it nor you need to but that is a fact that is overlooked by the press.

According to the law saying you are not going in buster - is perfectly legitimate. Hence that Shih remonstrating with that bouncer put himself into ambiguous position in the eyes of the law in Poland. If a Pole would be in his place he wouldn't have a slim chance to win in court against that bouncer unless he would have sustained serious injuries!

Well when the friends you are with have all been admitted to the club, and you are stopped and denied entry, the usual course of action would be to ask why.

No, I meant what he was complain about to the police? As you see being bared from entry is not against the law.

It has in all countries Iron, and I can understand this, people are scared, but it's not acceptable that anyone with dark skin should be targeted because they look different

Chemikiem I'm with you on that point as I have made it clear from the start. I only object to the ways that case has been misreported and misread in the press. Also I think that each country should devise such solutions and laws to address those issues as they seem fit and proper rather follow blindly ways of the others.

are far less racially motivated assaults than in other countries, but they are increasing, that is the problem

Are they increasing? I don't know, after all if they increased that would be only after Germany and then EU got that idea to send those illegal immigrants to Europe to all countries - what did they expect?

Solution - solve that problem and those assault flamed by the news will decrease.

I do get the impression that you don't want to hear a bad word said about how things are conducted in Poland

1. Chemikiem - not at all, as I have written repeatedly here I disagree with the way that case has been misrepresented that is all.
2. I said that the police is Poland is not very professional and they fail in properly response to the complain made by the Shih stems from the fact that they couldn't be bothered with the paper work involved that would be needed if they would have officially reported that incident rather than from their alleged 'racism'.

3. Excuse me Chemikiem but people in Poland know better without special laws and stuff.
4. I think that there is no need for the special 'racial' laws in Poland and if ever that need arise then those issues can be addressed by Poland on her own - no need for helpful hands and all that, thank you!.

but Poland isn't perfect,

Geez Chemikiem I never claimed that Poland is perfect. Hardly, if you would read closely what I have been writing here you would have known that I'm extremely critical about Poland to the point that I said that all that alleged 'elite' in Poland are just a scum and they need to be replaced and Poland needs to be make anew as a workable country that is not so hostile to its own people.

Majority of voters in Poland agree with me hence PiS won an election with the promises of the major change - as they put it a good change!

You can't sweep racist crimes under the carpet and hope they will disappear.

Sorry, an assault is assault there no need to debate about that, all assaults and crimes should be and are punishable by the law and no one says any different. Saying that there is not need at least in Poland for a all new category of a racist crime to be introduced to the Polish legal system that at any rate need to be fixed it to work at all.

Poland ends up being forced to take in refugees.

That would end up with Poland's exit from the EU. That is a crazy idea, I wonder why none can see that?

I would imagine this data would have to have been documented from reports. If he's not able to back it up, that's going to come back to haunt him.

I honestly don't know Chemikiem, so I can't say. However I wouldn't be surprised if he would somehow pulled the data from his backside, wouldn't be the first!

On what basis?

On a basis of him being a real D!

By the way Chemikiem I'm sorry for misspellings and grammatical mistakes I'm making and I know that it makes reading less pleasant but honestly I would have to read it again and correct all the errors- and I can't be bothered. I'm really Sorry, hope you'll not hold it against me!

All the best
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,181    
15 May 2016  #196
the Constitution

That "the Constitution" we have now is a piece of crap.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 May 2016  #197
You really don't have to confirm to us all that you preferred the previous system, no doubt due to having a privileged place in society as a result of family cooperation with the Party.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
15 May 2016  #198
you won't win this war - no amount of thinly veiled insults will help this
Supernovus    
15 May 2016  #199
You really don't have to confirm to us all that you preferred the previous system, no doubt due to having a privileged place in society as a result of family cooperation with the Party.

You seem to be perfectly attuned to the understanding of historical dialectic to take a privileged place in society.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
15 May 2016  #200
you won't win this war - no amount of thinly veiled insults will help this

Oh, we will.
Chemikiem 5 | 1,200    
17 May 2016  #201
I would say that no one should expect to be given privileges in a foreign country over a local population

I don't think that he was expecting to be given privileges or special treatment over a Pole, I think he was just expecting the police to take the fact that he was the victim of an assault seriously, not to be told that in the wake of the Paris attacks, what did he expect.

it is as saying - this is not your country, you should tune yourselves better to its ways.

So he should have known that in the event of an assault the police would in all likeliness be less than sympathetic towards him. You are right in that the attitude of the police was certainly less than professional, but if you take that as sound advice, it's going to make foreigners very wary of reporting crimes isn't it?

that bouncer was perfectly within his rights to deny him the entry. You might not like it nor you need to but that is a fact that is overlooked by the press.

Yes he was, and the club tried to say that he was denied entry on the grounds that the club was full. As he was denied entry on the basis of the bouncer thinking he was a Muslim terrorist because of his turban, then it is obviously going to be reported as such.

I meant what he was complain about to the police? As you see being bared from entry is not against the law.

I would imagine he complained about being physically assaulted. Are you saying that regardless of the circumstances of a person being refused entry, the police would automatically side with the bouncer, no questions asked? Clearly, in this case, even the club thought the bouncer was out of order as the security services the bouncer was a part of, were terminated.

I think that each country should devise such solutions and laws to address those issues as they seem fit and proper rather follow blindly ways of the others.

I don't think it's a question of blindly following others, but Poland has acknowledged there is a problem with racism within the country, and I don't think that looking at the ways in which other countries deal with it, is necessarily a bad thing. The Polish police have created a Polish platform against hatred, and the last government set up the anti-discrimination council whose job was to monitor and establish where hate crime was originating, and to coordinate between organisations,which is soon to be scrapped.

In addition, Poland has obligations under International law to ensure all minority groups within the country are equally protected from discrimination.
One has to ask if enough is being done, given the attitudes of the police. At the very least I think they need to undergo further training to effectively deal with these types of crime, and to improve relations between police and victims.

From an Amnesty.org link:-

"In Białystok, local police failed to investigate a series of physical assaults and arson attacks targeting asylum seekers and other immigrants and foreigners, prompting many survivors to leave Poland altogether. Only after a May 2013 arson attack on an Indian-Polish family drew the attention of national authorities did the city police start rounding up those suspected of attacks on minorities. But such violent attacks continued, even as Białystok authorities denied that a wave of hate crimes had taken place, painting some of the perpetrators instead as drunken soccer hooligans acting alone."

It was also reported here:-

thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/135566,Bialystok-mayor-pledges-action-over-racist-attacks

Are they increasing?

According to the figures provided by the Polish police to OHIDR ( See link in my last post ), then yes.
In 2014, 778 racist/xenophobic crimes were reported to the police. Of those 179 were prosecuted and 127 sentenced.
In 2009, 194 racist/xenophobic crimes were reported, 29 were prosecuted and 27 sentenced.
That is almost a four fold increase within 5 years.
Last year Polish prosecutors launched probes into 1500 cases of race hate crime, so yes, the problem is getting worse.

people in Poland know better without special laws and stuff.

I already listed 2 organisations that had been set up in Poland by Polish authorities, so Poland is trying to address the problem.

I think that there is no need for the special 'racial' laws in Poland

What if this problem gets worse? I sincerely hope it doesn't but you can't ignore people being attacked because of who they are.

all assaults and crimes should be and are punishable by the law

They should be, but in that Białystok case for example, only when attacks culminated in arson, did the police do anything. Local police ignored the attacks in the region up until then, and that sends out the message that racist crimes aren't taken seriously and that racism is tolerated in Poland.

I wouldn't be surprised if he would somehow pulled the data from his backside, wouldn't be the first!

Lol! It doesn't say where the reports came from, but here is the article.
thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/243728,Racial-tension-escalating-in-Poland-human-rights-ombudsman

I'm sorry for misspellings and grammatical mistakes I'm making

I really didn't notice anything that bad Iron! Your English is pretty good considering that you are writing about complex issues which command a high level of understanding of the language, I couldn't do that in Polish!

All the best!!
landofthunder    
17 May 2016  #202
Problem? What problem? There is no problem that is getting worse. Wait! One problem = the lunatic fringe, the 1% insane is attacking the 99% normal.
The 1% = perverts/ child molesters/ paederasts/ slavers/ pimps/ transgenders/ queers/ homosexuals/ inter race sex promoters, [jews]/ white porn promoters, [jews]/ mass immigration controllers, [guess who?], and every other type of psy op filth that can be shoved into normal family unity.

No problem, Poland. When all these things become normal and you won't know if you should stand or squat, then Poland will be 'better' at last. Just like in normal U$A/ UK/ West Euro.

@ the Sikh from UK = like all Paki/Hinds, interconnected to his own countrymen online = instant access to instant info about Poland 24/7. Just like white porn, [they keep goats to help ease their frustrations, naturally].

Also, 'ReturnofKings', which promotes raping white girls in Poland. Sikh to night club = why?

@ Police + duty = Anglo/American Maritime Law = "police OFFICER", representative/agent of local municipality - to protect the properties of businesses and to collect monies.

Commenters on this site can prattle whatever.......have all the Polish People left for the center of the Universe, which is Serbia? It is on the map, marked with 'SER.'.

It is normal, acceptable, understandable to be Racist/ Racialist/ Homophobic/ anti-Zionist, as in criticizing Jews for being anti semites, [killing Palestinian children], anti feminazi, hate miscegenation. Just like Koreans and Japanese; Ethnocentric in the extreme, Nationalists above all, Know and like who they are and despise what they are not, proud to be a people apart, and don't care what you think about them because, they don't need you.
johnny reb 16 | 3,461    
17 May 2016  #203
Know and like who they are and despise what they are not, proud to be a people apart, and don't care what you think about them because, they don't need you.

WOW, the best post yet on the subject !
Exactly spot on, if that is what the 1.5% of the people with views to "enrich" a culture with their "DISTORTED" views insist on naming the 98.5% of normal people in order to destroy Poland's culture like what has happened to the rest of Europe then let them call us racists, bigots and homophobic.

I stand proud to be anyone of those names if that fits the description of a normal moral person with integrity.
Keep Poland's Culture Polish Proud because Poland doesn't 'want' or 'need' you is well said !
Dougpol1 26 | 2,146    
17 May 2016  #204
if that fits the description of a normal moral person with integrity.

I choked on my croissant I was laughing so hard (or snorting with derision - it's all the same)

The 40 percent normal Poles will be Poland's future as a Western European allied modern state, and you have it the wrong way round as always Johnny:)
johnny reb 16 | 3,461    
17 May 2016  #205
We disagree with you Doug to the fullest.
(Don't gobble your food to woof it down like your dog does, take smaller bites.)
Ironside 47 | 9,251    
17 May 2016  #206
I don't think that he was expecting to be given privileges or special treatment over a Pole,

OK, for the record a Pole in his stead would have been told to get lost by the police. Simple.

So he should have known

Chemikiem I'm translating for you what that police officer said - I don't necessary agree with him. OK?

Yes he was, and the club tried to say that he was denied entry on the grounds that the club was full.

Doesn't it matter on what ground he was refused an entry? It wasn't against the law. So what crime has been committed and by whom?

Are you not automatically siding with that Shih?
Let take a step back here. I know why I have found that story as related by the press believable to a degree. You on the other hand took it all on faith just because he belongs to a swarthy, turban wearing minority in Europe. Am I right?

Are you saying that regardless of the circumstances of a person being refused entry, the police would automatically side with the bouncer, no questions asked?

Bouncers in Poland have the right to deny an entry to a club to anyone. So in that case while Shih has been arguing, questioning that decision, violence used by the bouncer could be seen (I don't know what the law say about it) as acting perfectly within his rights. Using as much force as is necessary to deal with a person who doesn't take NO for an answer.

Clearly, in this case, even the club thought the bouncer was out of order as the security services the bouncer was a part of, were terminated.

The club clearly wants to attract foreigners with money ( and hence I know that Shih didn't lie) so clearly he has been poorly trained D-head guarding the door. Most likely from a security company with no much standing, which had been hired only because they're providing cheap services.

but Poland has acknowledged there is a problem with racism within the country,

What country has no problems with this or that? I don't see that racism is a problem in Poland, anti-social attitude and behavior that is a real problem.

The Polish police have created a Polish platform against hatred, and the last government set up the anti-discrimination council

Come on Chemikiem you have no real understanding of the issue involved and I don't think this is the right thread to talk about it. I say that all this doesn't mean much and let's leave it at that.

One has to ask if enough is being done, given the attitudes of the police.

Why? Why would you concern yourself with a foreign country? A country in which you clearly need to dig long and hard to find any occurrence that can be interpreted as racist and almost none in the serious crime category.

Would that be an ideological bias?

In Białystok, local police failed to investigate a series of physical assaults

I know very little about that but I'm going to find out more. I really don't know what it is all about.
A sloppy police work.

wave of hate crimes had taken place, painting some of the perpetrators instead as drunken soccer hooligans acting alone."

Could be a very well the case - why not?

According to the figures provided by the Polish police

Somehow I'm skeptical about that. That illegal immigrants show across Europe coupled with terrorist attacks that could rise people tempers that I agree with but still....

I already listed 2 organisations that had been set up in Poland by Polish authorities

If you mean PO they most likely were trying to suck up to their friends in Europe and that is the only reason those organizations were created.

I sincerely hope it doesn't but you can't ignore people being attacked because of who they are.

People always have been attacked for who they are, how they look like, what they are doing, where they are.
There is nothing new in this. The point is that all crimes should be treated seriously without creating special categories of a crime in the law unless there is an overriding imperative that compels you to create those special laws.

I'm absolutely certain that Poland hasn't reached that stage that would deem necessary to do it.

but in that Białystok case for example, only when attacks culminated in arson, did the police do anything.

I told you that I don't think much about Polish police professionalism that was an euphemism, I think that they suck big time! New laws wouldn't improve their performance.

I really didn't notice anything that bad Iron!

My point being that if that bothers you I'll correct it.

but here is the article.

He is alluding to all those demonstrations against Poland being forced to take in a quota of these illegal immigrants. Speeches made on those demonstrations or on TV and such.

That has nothing to do with racial tension escalating but with the politics. He is making a political stance as he is supporting PO and those forces that lost in the last election.

He is trying to paint those patriotic (nationalistic) organization as racist, xenophobic and whatnot and to paint the current government PiS with the same brush in the eyes of the foreign viewer.

All the best.
AdrianK9 6 | 370    :-(
17 May 2016  #207
This turban wearing fool just wanted his 15 minutes of fame - that's all...

He is trying to paint those patriotic (nationalistic) organization as racist, xenophobic and whatnot and to paint the current government PiS with the same brush in the eyes of the foreign viewer.

Unfortunately - it's been working. The western media is painting Poland as a xenophobic country ruled by an authoritarian government. It's usually Poland and Hungary that are discussed in the same sentence... Bono calls Poland and Hungary 'hyper-nationalistic' and Bill Clinton made a statement along the lines of : 'Poland and Hungary, who wouldn't be free if it wasn't for the US, decided democracy was too much trouble and opted for a Putin-style authoritarian dictatorship to keep the foreigners out'

More about Bill Clinton's comments about Poland:
breitbart.com/london/2016/05/17/clinton-poland-hungary-reject-mass-migration
politico.eu/article/us-democracy-putin-like-not-us-say-poland-and-hungary-in-response-to-bill-clinton
dolnoslask 5 | 2,182    
17 May 2016  #208
"Poland and Hungary, who wouldn't be free if it wasn't for the US" Did i miss something, US never freed Poland, but sold us off to Stalin in Yalta in the first place.
AdrianK9 6 | 370    :-(
17 May 2016  #209
"Poland and Hungary, who wouldn't be free if it wasn't for the US" Did i miss something,

It's Bill Clinton... did you expect anything different from him?

The president of the PNA is already swaying people against voting for Hillary on account of this comment alone.
nothanks - | 667    
18 May 2016  #210
Bill was the Dems Reagan. Living legend. But he's sold his legacy out to get Hillary elected. Sad



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