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Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations?


Tacitus 2 | 1,136
13 Feb 2020 #271
So we ignore just the hundred thousands of documents which are deposited in thousands of archives across Europe that combined confirm the number of 5.1m-6.4 murdered jews?

Holocaust denial is an exercise in futility because the unrefutable evidence are not the "flashy" exhibits like the pictures and gas chambers, but the incredible large paper trail left behind by the Nazis, which would have been impossible to fake (let alone without a trace). This is btw. the reason why Holocaust always focus on the "flashy" evidence because they know perfectly well that there is no way to otherwise explain the documents, so they just pretend that it doesnt exist (and their gullible followerd usually dont know of them anyway).
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
13 Feb 2020 #272
Holocaust denial is quite simply a hate crime as any other, a filthy insult to those who suffered and continue to suffer from that period. It is indescribably venal and sick to even give the Irvings at al the credence of taking their work seriously.

If not the eye witnesses of Allied soldiers as incontrovertible evidence, on what leg can any Holocaust denier possibly stand??
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,550
13 Feb 2020 #273
So we ignore just the hundred thousands of documents which are deposited in thousands of archives across Europe that combined confirm the number of 5.1m-6.4

Yes we ignore it because it bullshit.

So explain to me why despite the Auschwitz numbers being lowered by 3 million, the total number of jewish deaths were never lowered?
So explain to my why numerous censuses show the numbers of jews INCREASED from 1938 to 1945?
So explain to me why the Red Cross cites a far lower figure than 6 million?

If not the eye witnesses of Allied soldiers as incontrovertible evidence

There is no "eye witness" evidence of Allied soldiers except for the Soviets, which is hardly credible. Those same "eye witnesses" claimed the Nazis were responsible for Katyn.

What kind of "extermination camp" has swimming pools and orchestras rofl? Sounds more like a resort. Even white collar prisons don't have that.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
13 Feb 2020 #274
The documents themselves from the archives of the Wannsee-Villa show black-and-white hard, documentary facts in the perpetrators' own hands the extent to which the conference plotted and planned the extermination of some 11,000,000 Jews, essentially the entire population of occupied Europe. While the total real numbers stopped at

6,000,000, the rest would surely have followed if the Allies had not been successful.

Only an attention-seeking charlatan, not to mention some other choice names, could think of grandstanding in order to try to make a convincing point!

@Dirk, I'm not talking about those who never got their facts straight either. Naturally the Soviet Russians were responsible for Katyn. Everyone knows that, as every thinking, literate person knows the truth about the Camps. About that there can be no discussion, save for academic posturing by revisionists or deniers.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,550
13 Feb 2020 #275
plotted and planned the extermination of some 11,000,000 Jews

Planned and plotted is far different than what actually happened, unfortunately.

While the total real numbers stopped at 6,000,000, the rest would surely have followed if the Allies had not been successful.

Right after WW2 the number was cited at 11-12 million, then in the 50's in French and other W European schools the number was taught at 9 million, then it was again reduced to 6 million, then the Auschwitz numbers were reduced from 4 mil to 1 mil - the vast majority of which would've been jews. Meanwhile the majdanek numbers have been reduced from 1.3 million to a palty 78,000 - which is the figure that the museum cites when you go there today. And that's just two camps. Then add all the census records, red cross reports, even camp survivors who paint a way different picture than the holocaust industry.

Man and I thought jews were good with numbers and they can't even count their own populations? Fact is, census records show that the number of jews actually INCREASED from the 1930's to after 1945.

Oh and lets not forget even the researchers from University of Krakow helped to shed more light on the holohoax.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
13 Feb 2020 #276
Splitting hairs, Dirk!

Fact is, it's easy to want to down play the real stats on the Holocaust because the truth is so ghastly, few are willing to face it, pure and simple!

Talk about "good with numbers", the Poles turned out to be the worst record keepers, often not even keeping track of how many Jews were killed in certain communities. The Germans though kept meticulous records.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
13 Feb 2020 #277
million, the total number of jewish deaths were never lowered

Because we have a better understanding where and when they were killed. We know the names of more than 5m jews who have definitely been killed, so that number is not going down. The initial impression was that most of the killings were done in Auschwitz, but ever since the 1960s we know that a lot of it was done "decentralized". The number in Auschwitz was deemed as incorrect long before it was finally corrected, because Polish governments were keen on it being the main killing site for political reasons.

why numerous censuses show the numbers of jews INCREASED

Because the Nazis kept lowering the bar on what it meant to be a jew. Initially after 1933, being a "half-jew" meant that you faced little discrimination, while it could later mean certain death. People were also increasingly required to prove that they were aryan, and it often tutned out that they had a mother/grandmother who was born jewish, but converted to christianity early in their life and never considered herself jewish.

because it bullshit

Holocaust denial in a nutshell. There is no way to explain hundred thousands of documents, so they just pretend that they dont exist. Fun fact, I am currently researching the history of a small science society, and thus looking into documents that have not been read for decades. There is a massage among them, informing the society that one of their half-jewish members (who was baptized as a baby, and lived 70 years considering herself a good catholic) died during "the evacuation to the East". In truth she was deported to Auschwitz and died there. There is no way anyone could or would have faked this.

can't even count their own population

This is hardly surprising, directly after the war when official bureaus were often overworked, understaffed and possibly partly destroyed. Trying to find out the correct number killed is an ardenous task, and requires researching millions of documents. Which is why numbers changed, but successive generations of historians have done a good job by narrowing it down. Which is why no one can lower the number below 5.1, since this is the number of victims whose name we have. If you want to lower it, you must explain what happened to the others.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,550
13 Feb 2020 #278
he number in Auschwitz was deemed as incorrect long before it was finally corrected

And yes the muh 6 million number was never adjusted proportionate to the lowering of Auschwitz number by a 75% decline - 3 million people, the majority of whom would've been jews.

Holocaust denial in a nutshell

No one is denying the holocaust, I'm saying that the 6 million number is totally inaccurate.

There is no way to explain hundred thousands of documents, so they just pretend that they dont exist

And there's also plenty of documents including census records, red cross reports, news articles, and even testimonies from survivors that show the 6 million number is b.s.
mafketis 23 | 8,406
13 Feb 2020 #279
The initial impression was that most of the killings were done in Auschwitz

Auschwitz was the most famous camp because there were survivors, some other camps were simple extermination points...
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
13 Feb 2020 #280
One thing, i dont care about Holocaust, neither does any of my friends and class mates. We dont care if it was one or 6 million. On school yard we told us jokes about it.

It doesnt touch me the slightest. **** happens and thats it about this. I neither feel bad about it, nor feel i guilt or anything regarding that. So the actual numbers are irrelevant for me.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
13 Feb 2020 #281
Perhaps the reason, Weimarer, that your country is in such deep trouble that Ms. Kramp Karrenbauer had to quit and that there's a rightist surge!

If you don't know or worse, care, about your own history, you oughtn't be allowed the rights of full citizenship, native-born "ethnic" German or not. History is our collective responsibility, whether it's Germans learning about Hitler or Americans, particularly of settler heritage, learning about what was done to our Native Americans;

YOU CAN'T GET AROUND IT!
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
13 Feb 2020 #282
yes the muh 6 million number was never adjusted proportionate to the lowering of Auschwitz

Because we know for certain that 5-6 million people were killed, it was just back then up to debate where and how. The number historians came up with starting with the 1950s had nothing to do with the claims of the Polish dictatorship that wanted to use the death toll for political means, so of course there was no need to reduce the number. See like this, we know the number of American soldiers killed in Europe during WWII is around 450-550k. which can proven by the documents about the fallen soldiers. Now imagine if the memorial at Normandy used to claim that at Normandy alone, 450k americans had been killed to play up its' importance, and would later be forced to reduce the number. Would we thereafter reduce the number of overall Americans killed? Of course not, since one unscientific claim does not invalidate the reliable documents we , and the same counts for the Holocaust victims.

there's also plenty of documents

Such as? You must be able to point to some, because they must be really famous if they contradict the number of 5-6m people. More than 5million whose names we know, I might add. If you refer to the claim that Red Cross documents show a significantly lower number of deaths, then this has been long debunked.

fullfact.org/online/holocaust-death-toll/
Vlad1234 16 | 645
13 Feb 2020 #283
So shell there be a reparations for invading and devastating other countries or not? It applies to any countries.
mafketis 23 | 8,406
13 Feb 2020 #284
On school yard we told us jokes about it.

A normal coping mechanism... far less alraming than the idea that all Germans forever should feel some kind of personalized guilt....
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
13 Feb 2020 #285
@Lyzko

I dont go around it. I laugh about it.

I feel no more about it than human sacrifices in mexico or the british killing the tasmanians.

**** happens.

Look, the propaganda regarding it is laughable for me. I cant take it serious, i feel nothing about that.

You could walk me through Buchenwald and i would eat a burger while doing so.

Do you honestly think the bullshit speeches politicians hold is what they feel? All those empty words and theatralic bla bla?

I know my nations history very well and i love it, its just that i dont take that holocaust bla bla very serious.

I think its a natural reaction, if you press this **** too hard, people push back.

As for AKk im happy that ***** stepped back. Next is Merkel. AfD works.
Miloslaw 7 | 3,264
13 Feb 2020 #286
I laugh about it

Attitudes like that show me that Germany is becoming dangerous, yet again.... Poles are right in not trusting Germans, because they have far too many like Erik amongst them.....

Luckily for us, despite Eriks chest thumping, the German military is f###ed......and won't be fixed soon.
Germany is all bark and no bite......
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,550
13 Feb 2020 #287
The number historians came up with starting with the 1950s

Which use to be 9 million as taught in schools all of W Europe... And it's since been reduced... But surely the dictators of France in the 50's did that for political reasons...

Point is, the holocaust industry has been used by jews to gain political and financial favor for decades. It's been grossly exaggerated while making the death tolls of Russians, Poles, etc. which are actually higher, seem not as important.

Muh 6 million... oyy veyy
Miloslaw 7 | 3,264
13 Feb 2020 #288
@Dirk diggler

Posts on PF are getting more extreme by the day.
We have no communists on here, thank God, and no true Socialists either, but a few left leaning moderates.
But we have a ton of neo Nazis.... some are American and all the Serbs are neo Nazis.
TBH if the mods or owners don't deal with this soon, this forum will die.
Joker 1 | 1,588
13 Feb 2020 #289
But we have a ton of neo Nazis.... some are American

Who is a Nazi? You've been hangin out with TO too long.....

Attitudes like that show me that Germany is becoming dangerous, yet again

Do you think they are planning on another world war? The started 2 of them already and really can't be trusted to build an Army, but then again, they weaseled out of paying NATO for decades and don't want my tax $$ going to those sneaky fuks anymore.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
14 Feb 2020 #290
But surely the dictators of France in the 50's did that for political reasons

Firstly, I would like to have a source on that claim and specifically how long that believe was supposedly taught. Estimations in the first few years were generally inaccurate because western historians had no access to the archives in Eastern Europe where most of the killing happened. Not to mention that those archives were often still incomplete due to the war.

Few subjects have been as thoroughly researched as the Holocaust, so we know have a very detailed picture of it. This includes more than 5m names. How do you explain that away?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
14 Feb 2020 #291
Which use to be 9 million as taught in schools all of W Europe... And it's since been reduced...

Do you really care about the numbers? Why is that important? Does a million less victims really lessens the atrocity for the rest?

And shouldn't a real Jew-hater like you not be proud of that and be happy with a high number? Why are you trying to talk it down?
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
14 Feb 2020 #292
@Miloslaw

We dont care about your trust. And what makes us dangerous? Because im a normal healthy male? Did you ever go rome and cried because what happened in collosseum?

Dude get real. Nobody in France or UK or USA gives a **** about their countries crimes. Nobody in Russia either. Dont blame us for stuff that is normal for others.

Your problem is, that you cant use WW II and Holocaust as whip to beat us. Thats all, Greece tried it and got crushed. The time where you could tell sad stories and get free money are over.
JackRussel
14 Feb 2020 #293
Oh come on man, I saw some videos - Turks using guns in their weddings, Africans breaking cars etc. I bet your bunch has only the guts to hate on hardworking Central and Eastern Europeans while ignoring the minorities that are turning your country into the 3rd world.
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
14 Feb 2020 #294
@JackRussel
We have no minorities in eastern germany.

Turning our country in 3rd world? You fear Germany might fall on USA level? I mean you complain about some turks and negroids while UsA is overrun by hispanic and blacks, has 20 times higher crime rate as Germany
Ziemowit 13 | 4,078
14 Feb 2020 #295
We have no minorities in eastern germany.

Right, no 3rd world minorities in Eastern Germany. But you have an indigenous Slavic minority of Sorben in Brandenburg and Sachsen.
JackRussel
14 Feb 2020 #296
^yes but Eastern Germany is also less wealthy. What city are you from? I was in Dresden and it looked less wealthy than Prague and even Bratislava.

USA is hardly a good example. I look up any random small Bavarian town and the news/videos scare me. Bomb in Amberg etc. Things like these don't ever happen here in Bulgaria. Yet your people hate on Bulgarians, Poles, etc. while turning a blind eye to Merkel's displacement.
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
14 Feb 2020 #297
@JackRussel
Bulgaria? Really? Lol.

What happened in 2012? Heared it made boom in Burgas?

As for Dresden, its GDP is 3 times that of Prague. Even the poorest east german state Meck-Pom has a GDP almost 3 times higher than czech republic.

Merkels displacement? Merkel is history. We just toppled her sucessor this week. Germany is run by the far right AfD, the old system parties crumble.

P.s. we dont hate bulgaria or poland.
Vlad1234 16 | 645
14 Feb 2020 #298
Nobody in France or UK or USA gives a **** about their countries crimes..

And how many war crimes these countries do have? Some examples? Well, especially those of them which were not a colonial powers.
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
14 Feb 2020 #299
@Vlad1234

Is one war crime per country ok as example?

USA - Haditha massacre

France - My Trach massacre

UK - Briggs massacre

Russia - bombing of Aleppo
Vlad1234 16 | 645
14 Feb 2020 #300
@Weimarer
Millions of dead?

Russia-Syria bombing campaign kills 446 civilians in Aleppo

A horrendous outcome!
hrw.org/news/2016/12/01/russia/syria-war-crimes-month-bombing-aleppo

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