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Poland in the European Union. Polexit?


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,796
6 Feb 2019 #481
And yes, they do have a welfare system but it's minimal when compared to other Western European nations.

Are you sure?

Switzerland's AHV program is an income-replacement system for elderly citizens unable to work or their survivors. This system is funded via income taxation and redistributed to recipients to ensure the individual's ability to afford subsistence.[5] Disability insurance is similarly provided to those unable to work due to birth defect, disease or accident.[6] Family allowances are distributed to Swiss families by the government to compensate for the costs of raising children. Each child rates an individual family allowance package.[7]

That sounds well rounded....
delphiandomine 83 | 17,725
6 Feb 2019 #482
Not to mention the Swiss regulations, which are incredibly protectionist, particularly in terms of dairy and meat products. It's certainly not a free for all at all, and the "low tax" stuff is largely a myth.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,422
6 Feb 2019 #483
I agree with Lyzko 100%. So that's a draw then.

No.
He and I have facts to back up what we claim. You don't. Only feeelings and virtue signals.
I never lost an argument with a lib. Do you know how I know that I won?
I win when a lib just disappears when I ask a legit question on the subject that lib raised. Not my subject. His subject. Go it?

Or deflects. Same s***.
Lyzko 23 | 6,635
6 Feb 2019 #484
You never lost an argument with one because you probably never had enough ammo to get one off the ground aka it was a stalement from the get go!

Face it, dude, you're licked and you know it:-)
Spike31 2 | 884
6 Feb 2019 #486
Are you sure?

There are some good answers on quora.

How-can-Switzerland-have-such-an-amazing-welfare-system-when-the-taxes-are-so-low-where-does-the-money-come-from

Christian Wentzel from Switzerland:

> the welfare system is financed by public money only in small part

> company pension fund and individual pension scheme adds most funds to this package.

Company I'm working in in London run a similar fund from which one can opt out. And I did. One can invest and/or save this extra money in better ways than a company do.

And now a little challenge: I dare you to opt out of public pension scheme. Just try and see what happens :-)

the "low tax" stuff is largely a myth

Then take a look at the numbers

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Switzerland#Income_tax
delphiandomine 83 | 17,725
6 Feb 2019 #487
And now a little challenge: I dare you to opt out of public pension scheme. Just try and see what happens :-)

Remarkably ill informed, given that there are a multitude of ways to do just in Poland.

Then take a look at the numbers

Tax is more than just income tax. You need to look at the overall picture, which includes issues such as the Swiss using car mechanics for everything, even routine things that anyone can do, such as changing oil. Or the rubbish taxes, or the high fines for all manner of strange things that would never be an issue in Poland. Property taxes are also quite a burden, as are the high import fees on beef.
Spike31 2 | 884
6 Feb 2019 #488
Remarkably ill informed, given that there are a multitude of ways to do just in Poland.

Sure, when you are an entrepreneur there are some ways. Or when you're a farmer. And most people aren't and they've got their ZUS contributions deducted from their monthly salaries.

Tax is more than just income tax

Let's take a look at other taxes.

VAT tax in Switzerland: standard rate is 7.7% (special 3.7%, reduced 2.5%)

Normal rates of VAT tax in the EU: Austria 20%, Belgium 21%, Denmark 25%, Germany 19%, UK 20% and so on...
delphiandomine 83 | 17,725
6 Feb 2019 #489
And most people aren't and they've got their ZUS contributions deducted from their monthly salaries.

In order to make sure that older Polish people have some money to live on. Social solidarity, given that the older generation had it far more difficult than this one. I appreciate that Korwinists couldn't care less about society, but that's largely because most of them are living off their parents money anyway.

But let's take a look at VAT tax in Switzerland: standard rate is 7.7%, special 3.7%, reduced 2.5%

That's still not telling the whole picture.

swissinfo.ch/eng/business/high-steaks_getting-your-teeth-into-swiss-meat-prices/43748802

You might pay lower taxes, but then you get hit with considerably higher costs. The "Swiss tax" in terms of everything being a lot more expensive in CH is well known, even when you'd think that things such as electronics and machinery should be the same price. The amount of regulation in CH is remarkable as well - and unlike Poland, they're much more efficient when it comes to catching people and fining them.
Spike31 2 | 884
6 Feb 2019 #490
Korwinists couldn't care less about society

Don't play naive. Both Libertarians and National Capitalists are legalists and they want to solve this problem and end a current public pension system and opt-out the young generation from it.

The older generation which contributed their whole life to this [ineffective] public pension scheme would get their pensions.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,725
6 Feb 2019 #491
And how do you propose to fund that if young people bail out en masse from ZUS, as they will?
cms neuf - | 990
6 Feb 2019 #492
You are talking about opting out of your employers pension scheme ? In the UK that is normally an unwise thing to do so I hope the upsides and downsides were explained to you before you did it.

As for scrapping ZUS that is just nuts - still Korwin has put it to the Polish voters many times and surprisingly they have not been interested
Lyzko 23 | 6,635
7 Feb 2019 #493
Already did, Rich, and I trounced ya!
Guess ya forgot that "unimportant" factoid, huh?
:-))
Spike31 2 | 884
7 Feb 2019 #494
And how do you propose to fund that if young people bail out en masse from ZUS, as they will?

Dealing with ZUS is like curing a drug addiction on a scale of a whole society. You know that's it's not good for you yet it will be painful to break the habit and you will feel bad before you start feeling better.

ZUS has no future and the longer we will prolong its life, by burning cash, the more painful it will be to recover from this scheme.

It's the same with any other state social insurance in Europe, and the only answer most politician's got is to take in a massive amount of young immigrant to pay for pensions for ageing European population. Which is a short sighted policy
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,422
7 Feb 2019 #495
And, ultimately, suicidal. We have the same idiocy going on here in the US. The Ponzi scam, aka Social Security, needs the fertilizer. Hence, open borders.

The illegals forge their SS cards, pay SS taxes from dollar one, the feds look the other way, AARP is happy, and old geezers get their checks while the US is morphing into a Latino s***hole. What a plan!
cms neuf - | 990
7 Feb 2019 #496
There are plenty of other answers apart from immigration

Raise the retirement age - PiS lowered it and I don't see any of the other parties talking about it
Cut or hold benefits - PiS raises them
Increase ZUS rates
Increase birth rates - to be fair they are increasing
Crack down on ZUS fiddles in umowa o dzielo etc

I can't see any of these being tried soon but a broken system is better than no system. You are in the UK Spike so you can see what it is like to take a massive leap in the dark on a huge economic issue.

Opting out is nuts by the way - you are forgoing the free money from your employer and the govt, so you are obviously not the best advocate for wise pension planning.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,150
7 Feb 2019 #497
Increase ZUS rates

I already pay 1,400 zl a month now. What would you suggest? Blood?
cms neuf - | 990
7 Feb 2019 #498
1401 ! Do your bit for the country man
Crow 137 | 7,714
4 Nov 2019 #499
When happen, Polexit will happen with BIG BANG. It won`t go with negotiations as in case with Brexit. Oh, no. Look issues of Northern Ireland and Scotland. Entire Britain reverberate with tremors as parts of countries seek to stay within EU. But that is Britain. Poland is not Britain. You think Germanics and Francos won`t try to stimulate Silesia, Swinouscie, etc. regions to secede from Poland? They will.

That is why Poland already prepare its maneuverable space, making itself ready for the inevitable. Do you now understand some moves of PiS and Duda?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,404
4 Nov 2019 #500
As long as the western euros keep giving us funds for crap like highways there won't be a polexit. However, once Poland becomes a net payee and not citizens are paying to develop places like Albania approval rates will definitely go down.
Crow 137 | 7,714
4 Nov 2019 #501
Non would ask Poland what Poland want. Poland would get ultimatum when comes to Polexit.

What is this now? You are silent.

Sure, you know I am right. You know greed would push false friends of Poland onto madness of grabbing.

But let me tell you. Poland won`t be alone. Great battle will yet to happen for every peace of Sarmatian ground. Not that they won`t reduce Poland but they will be forced to give back to Poland and to Slavic world.

When THEY come we will f*** them hard and systematically.
Lyzko 23 | 6,635
4 Nov 2019 #502
Although I live on the other side of the Pond, so to speak, I feel nonetheless that a Polexit would be sheer folly on the part of the current government! What could Poland possibly gain from it anyway?
Crow 137 | 7,714
4 Nov 2019 #503
If Poland is seduced to stay long enough within EU, cancer would go to metastases and partition of Poland would be necessary outcome. Poland would be stuck in the middle of disintegration within EU, Germany in particular and in Poland itself. So, instead to profit Poland will be among biggest losers because of EU collapse.

Poland already failed to offer proper alternative to its populace. People are still in large pro-EU. Tales about Intermarium (Central-European Union) are past. Poland even barely cope with Visegrad countries. Poland is more and more isolated (and, I must say, only actions of Serbia force Poland to act).
Lyzko 23 | 6,635
4 Nov 2019 #504
Seduced??? Cancer...metasthesized...?!

Why are you so anti-EU, Crow?
Crow 137 | 7,714
4 Nov 2019 #505
EU ruling establishment and western Europe proved for what are they capable. Quite equal to Hitler and Goebbels. Nobel prize winner nicely unmasked how it function.

So now they keeping Poland stimulated, while increasing pressure to drag Poland (and certain regions of Poland) deeper within. Still, Poles awakening. Even golden cage is just cage. But it already may be too late. If Poland try to escape, easily may face destine of Yugoslavia. Maybe not but, for sure, it would be tried.
Lyzko 23 | 6,635
4 Nov 2019 #506
What on earth are you babbling about?
mafketis 21 | 7,388
4 Nov 2019 #507
The usual mad Serbian nonsense?
Miloslaw 6 | 2,364
4 Nov 2019 #508
Why are you so anti-EU, Crow?

I am anti EU too but Crow is deluded as usual.
Poland will not leave whilst they are gaining so much from it.
And his idea that parts of Poland would seek independence just exposes his ignorance.
As, I think Dirk said, there may come a point far in the future, that Poland becomes successful enough to become a net contributor to the EU,

Some Poles may wish to leave, but as the UK's experience has shown, that is not so easy.....
"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave".
Dougpol1 32 | 3,150
4 Nov 2019 #509
giving us

It's not "Us" though is it? Stop acting as though this affects you, or is any of your business. It's tiresome correcting you all the time, and suggests a childishness on your part.
Lyzko 23 | 6,635
4 Nov 2019 #510
I take it then, Milo, that you're a BREXIT supporter, yes?


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