THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY

No Greg, it's just that when having a chat at the bar while watching football on a sunday evening, conversations are often not the ones which one would have in front of one's boss. I know that you might struggle with that concept, but that's just the way it is.


Sigh. OK then Greg, here's the text, go argue with the Polish MoD.


defensenews.com/article/20110907/DEFSECT01/109070308/Poland-Signs-44-5M-Deal-To-Modernize-MiG-29s

Ah OK :)))


OK you crashed me 10 thousand times, I stand corrected now, by Harry the expert :))))))))))

You quoted the "so-called" Polish media experts, in this case Polish Radio, from Oct 2, 2007 - a heyday times of our sensationalists. Exactly, as I said, the deja vu again. Laughable, Harry.

You said nothing of value in your first post, nor in your second "retort". You get tangled around the $123 millions figure, which I mentioned in my post as well. The difference is that this figure was assumed in 2003, in the early MON plan, which was followed up. This is not any revelation Harry, they knew about potential service expences and about spare part costs.

But obviously you cannot read Polish so you conveniently ignored the first links I posted - the MON report of 2008. I did not invented those numbers.

And you ignored the second link too, where they show the fifth anniversary numbers, related to the F-16s that actually do fly Harry.

The fifth birthday of F-16 - a balance sheet
mon.gov.pl/pl/artykul/12083 , 2011-11-09

Since 2009-11-09, when the first F-16 was flown in to Krzesiny near Poznan:

- Continuous training of flying personnel in joint air operations with Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, France, Greece, Denmark, Sweden, Spain [they forgot to mention USA and Great Britain, boletus]

- in 2011 component "Jastrząb" from Krzesiny obtained positive certification FORCEVAL, a necessary condition for participation in NATO operations in the framework of TACEVAL - Tactical Evaluation Program.

- Both Tactical Air Bases: 32 BLT (£ask) and 31 BLT (Krzesiny) are in continuous combat duty (32 BLT since January 2010, 31 BLT since June 2011) NATINADS (Nato Integrated System of Air Defence),

- Both bases 32 BLT (Janurary 2010) and 31 BLT (June 2011) are in continuous QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) combat duty - part of NATINADS.
- Since 2009-12-14 the basic pilot training course takes place in Krzesiny , rather than exclusively in USA.
- Training of ground crews in English and in 23 technical specialization has been also moved from USA to Poland
- As of 2011-11-02, during the five years, Polish F-16s flew 14 834 sorties with a total number of 25 719 hours. [Probably too few, but that's the salary issue - boletus]

- The bases have 49 F-16 pilots [again, this number should be higher. It's all about salaries - boletus], including three Basic Course pilots and nine instructors. Five of the pilots have more than 1000 flight hours. 820 millions PLN was invested in Krzesiny for 61 various investments and repairs; similarly the £ask base was expanded and modernized for 435 PLN.

International training, details

- 2011-07, Germany, with Eurofighter, 32 BLT aircraft
- 2011-07, "SAFE SKIES 2011", 32 BLT
- 2010-04, Germany, "BRILLIANT ARDENT 2010", 32 BLT
- 2010-04, £ask, "SQUADRON EXCHANGE" with 52 USAF Wing from Spanghdal and 31 BLT
- 2010-05, Germany, "ELITE 2010", 32 BLT
- 2011-07, static exhibition, Spanghdal, 32 BLT
- 2011-08, static exhibition, Slovakia, 32 BLT
- 2011, 2010 Polish squadron exchange, Malbolrk Mig-29 and 31 BLT
- 2010-04, "Frisian Flag", Holland, 31 BLT
- 2010-06, Polish-Belgian "Squadron exchange", Krzesiny, 31 BLT
- 2011-05, France, "NATO TIGER MEET", 31 BLT

In addition:

- 2011-08, Russia, "Vigilant Skies"
- 2009 and 2011, Air shows, Radom, 31 BLT, and 32 BLT
- 2008, Denmark, "SQUADRON EXCHANGE"
- 2009 (3 times) and 2011 (3 times), "TACTICAL LEADERSHIP PROGRAMME", first in Belgium, then in Spain
- 2009-06, Sweden, "LOYAL ARROW"
- 2009-06, Greece, "SQUADRON EXCHANGE"
- 2009-09, Denmark, "BOLD AVENGER"
- 2009-12, Spain, SQUADRON EXCHANGE"

My Toronto residence has nothing to do with the merits, mister "taxis paying" Harry and now the military expert. Going personal rather than ad rem? Do not make me laugh. I have been carefully following for years many discussions on F-16s among the military and business people. I have heard it before about Gripens, Mig-29 (Soviet era, you said?) modernization and other issues. As an example, just look at the discussion forum "F-16 vs. Gripen",

f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1029.html
and you will find plenty of pro and contra arguments for both types of military aircraft. I do not need to seek any advice from you "Harry, the tax payer", nor from dummy journalists going after next sensations.

I say, although things could be better as usual - but considering that this is Poland - the status of our F-16s fleet is actually quite good.

I said that the planes cost tens of millions of dollars per year to repair. And guess what? They do just that. As even the sources you give provide.


Were they right or wrong when they said that Polish MoD had ordered $123 million worth of spare parts for the F-16s? Oh yes, they were exactly right, as shown by your own source, and no matter how you try to attack them they will still be right.


So you mean that we spent money on shiny new planes that date back the Vietnam war which we don't actually have the money to put in the air enough? What an excellent use of taxpayer money that was.


So you mean that we spent money on shiny new planes that date back the Vietnam war which we don't actually have the money to pay enough pilots for? What an excellent use of taxpayer money that was.


And those are very very interesting. But you were asked for data comparing how often US F-16s suffer serious malfunctions to how Polish US F-16s suffer serious malfunctions. Which you have failed to provide. I wonder why you have failed to provide that.

And you've failed to tell us why it was better to spend $40 millions per F-16 instead of paying $2.78 million modernise Poland's Mig-29s to be comparable to those F-16s. I wonder why you have failed to do that.


It actually has quite a lot to do with this: you pay (and paid) nothing for those shiny new planes that date back the Vietnam war, I do. But you are telling me how my money should be spent. Personally I'd prefer to see $3.3 billion being spent on things like education and health care and only $200 million being spent on shiny new planes.


Yes, we can't pay our nurses or teachers a living wage but we have got some lovely shiny new planes which we can't afford to fly. Hurrah for the Polish armed forces!

boletus

I really admire your efforts in regard to this total ignorant. I gave up after $2.78 million thingy :)))

Harry


Nope = the jet first built in 1976.
Little wiki history
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Also I would say Poland did get a proven multi-role combat jet that can beat anything thrown against it now or even in the distant future. Just review the combat record to see how good this aircraft is.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operational_history#Bekaa_Valley_and_Osiraq_raid_.281981.29

I wont get mixed up in the debate about spare parts. But I know there is truth in what was said about new parts and systems getting broken in. Now whether the Polish government failed to buy the proper warranty that is not the problem of the F 16.

I was also asking in my previous post for a comment on how do Polish people feel about American military personnel coming to Poland. Abet only a small detachment of 10 for now.

Also Harry and boltus I will say thank you for your comments of the F 16 as I learned a bunch from your back and forth.

Red Flag
youtube.com/watch?v=FtyxQTs6_cQ

They got a proven plane, yes - but the jury is out as to whether it can stand up against the Eurofighter. The F-16's aren't bad planes - but at this moment in time, renovating the MiG-29 and SU-22's would have made more sense. Yes - the SU-22 would be useless against Russia - but who would expect Poland to hold out long anyway?

There were also quite a few second hand MiG-29's available to buy at the start of the 21st century - there was no reason why Poland couldn't have bought a few of them at a bargain price. A decent fleet of those - modernised - would have suited the Air Force and also been drastically cheaper than the F-16 mess. They also would have let Poland wait and see with the Eurofighter.

It seems very much to me as if the F-16 purchase was political, not military.

I bet you just love those Polish-American boys.

Except they're not Polish-Americans.

Sure it was and a waste of monies too.

Of course the purchase was also political. Sales / purchase of these planes are a statement of where Poland places its trust and where it would like to build closer military ties. F-16 is NATO and drawing closer to western alliances. Mig -29 is Russian..... represents the past.

I am glad Poland is flying F-16s.

Any comments on the future of Polands Armored divisions?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT-91_Twardy - old / new (and Leopard 2)

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2915582/post - new tank?

Me too!

So, US Abrams are entering the stage. Firstly, Poland bought 250 new types which will have been delivered by 2026. .Now, the latest decision is to purchase additional 116 second hand older type tanks with next year delivery. Together with 250 ex German Leopards, that will be a substantial force - about 600 good tanks of 3rd generation. .

@pawian
Everything can be to late.

@pawian
The Abrams in this order are refurbished from Afghanistan. They will be delivered by the end of January. Refurbished in US military speak means just about as good as new. There is already a substantial amount of these tanks here with the Americans on the border. Nothing is going to happen to Poland without a direct US response. Putin knows this and will not risk it.

Nobody knows for sure. :):)


Excellent.

However, I am worried coz I read we ordered the new tanks without automatic anti tank missile protection system. Americans and Israelis use such a system. Though expensive, it makes the tank immune against anti tank missiles fired from portable launchers, choppers and armoured vehicles. .

@pawian
In other words you want to say that one small Javelin can destroy a big Polish Abrahms tank. Not good.

Yes. Not only Javelin but also Putalin (Kornet, NATO code Spriggan), Lukashilin (Ataka, NATO code name Spiral) and other RuSSist stuff.

Purpose of tanks (originally) was to breach fortified positions of the enemy (during world war 1).

Nowadays it seems it's being constructed to counter other tanks to a larger degree, while becoming focused on range to a larger degree and offensive capabilities instead of staying a modern sieging ram as it was intended originally.

(A fast moving cannon has it's use, but shouldn't be used as a battering ram. Especially a very expensive one)

While there are lot of cheaply produced weapons and tools countering it. (Explains the success of less developed countries using easily cheaply produced equipment, while being highly motivated to undergo tremendous suffering to beat the enemy).

While U.S.A was heavily depending on support from France and Spain in the revolutionary war to counter a significant navy and masses of line infantry.

Any massing of units in one place, risks a nuclear warhead attack, which is why smaller combat units are more preffered.

The more irregular, and less easily hacked systems are being used the better (especially decentralised systems against an enemy with superb hacking possibilities)

If Russians hack one Ukrainian system among thousands, it has small significance.

If 1 centralized Russian system get hacked, Ukrainians have access to everything, and can use it everywhere

One of the main key sucesses of German Wehrmacht was highly trained and motivated under-officers (Seargents etc) and low ranking officers (lieutenants, captains) given a general plan of action and trusting them with handling the situation until reinforcements were needed, while having as much communication as possible.

While more loyalist corrupted armies tend to wait with performing anything until a order is given from higher ranking officers, useally too late and wrong orders due the threat it's meant to handle has become outdated.

Macro managers trying micromanage vs micromanagers trying to micromanage.

Poland has already handed its 230 T72 tanks to Ukraine. Now it is time for 230 PT91, the modernised version of T72. In this way we are getting rid of non-prospective machines, and most importantly, we are eliminating the excess of types of tanks in the Polish Army. Leopard 2, Abrams, PT91 and T72 is a logistics nightmare. In wartime conditions it would be difficult to service these machines because each of them needs different parts and two kinds of ammo. When we stay with two types, ie Abrams and Leo2, we only have two modern machines that logistics must handle.

The Polish army might lack some modern equipment but the spirit is high. Partly due to nutritious ration kits for soldiers.
Here is a video from a youtube tester of kits. The Polish one was one of her most favourite.



Comment:

SuperSix Delta
I just bought one of these rations and I'm floored at how stinking good it is. Lovely food. I'm really impressed. Wish we had something like this when I was in the army.

Apart from 366 Abrams and F-35 from the US, Poland is also buying 180 Black Panther tanks and 48 fighter planes from South Korea. Amasing!

Repairs and modernization of Polish Leopards 2 is delayed 3 years and half of Polish Leopards is in the middle of repair, or modernization and not working 3 years already.

Germans also offered 8 years delivery time for more Leopards and asked more money than US for better A1A2 Sep v3.
Also Leopard 2 has less armor piercing capacity because Germans are too "green" to manufacture ammo from depleted uranium.

We plan to buy used K2 and manufacture 400 licensed K2PL by 2030 ( PL version will have uparmored sides and ammo compartments with blowout pannels ).
We've got Leopards 2 used and cheap in the early 2000s and they were great for what we've paid, but you have to be insane to buy German gear in the current year.

That is why nobody is thinking of it and nobody mentioned it in this thread. :):)

The first shipment took place 5 days ago - tanks and self propelled howitzers from South Korea. Together with planes and technology transfer, Poland will spend 12 billion $ in Korea.

• 
  0JEk9kpTURBXy82ZjljM.jpg
  

Not bad, my Renault Latitude made in Korea was the best car ever.

The same tanks and howitzers the purchase of which was so criticised by oppositards and their "experts" (some of whom already announced the cancelling of those contracts if they win the elections)? Good. Polish Army is in dire need of modern equipment.

We can only be glad that oppositards are not in power at the moment. If they were, they would probably purchase rainbow-coloured uniforms and armoured abortion-on-demand vehicles instead. :)

I didn`t notice such "hysteria" you are suggesting while I was reading the opposition or neutral online media. Where did you take it from? PiS controlled state TV???? hahahaha

The only criticism was the voices expressing worry that PiS ritards are buying everything everywhere without negotiating prices. Also, their purchases will be difficult to bear by the Polish budget.


Your antiliberal obsession is blinding you now. Try to cool down. Uniforms can`t be rainbow even in the army full of trannies coz it is against the basic rules of warfare. :):):)

he didn't say "histeria" in his post - and you were personally histeriac about the dismissal of German Patriots by the Polish government - the sad truth is that Germany is (unfortunately not openly) hostile to Poland's interests and that Patriot stunt was cheap trick that would cost Germans exactly nothing

No, he didn`t but he suggested it using such words and phrases:

was so criticised by oppositards and their "experts" (some of whom already announced the cancelling of those contracts if they win the elections


Admit it was an extremely stupid move by those ritards coz it badly influenced Poland`s safety. Luckily,ritards swallowed their anti Germanophobic pride and now are negotiating the deal with Germans.