THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY

don't splatter PB! The thread topic is - the reality of the Polish Army!
You on the other hand post some S-F predictions about the future of said army! Such prediction cost nothing and are only pure speculation - read somebody pulled it out of his ass!

First step if you want discus anything - learn to differentiate between reality and fiction!

Erm, Read Sun Tsu ironside....
Ok,dont bother,its friggin boring and only really read by second rate car salesmen but..
It is a perfectly legitimate exercise in military circles to attemt to predict the future shape of a nations armed forces. There are entire departments in each countries armed forces set up soley to carry this out,so,there is nothing Sci Fi or fantasy about interested obsevers attempting to do the same.

No one here has *predicted* the replacement of Soldiers with Cyborgs have they?
Mind you,no doubt that is one scenario on many planners to do list.

The topic always drifts off


Exactly. Besides I'm not speculating, I'm discussing arms agreements which have been signed by the Polish military with local and foreign suppliers.

Happens with most popular topics

drone army is the way to go.


i dont understand how a missile defense shield can be wrong and right at the same time, this to me says they will buy russian technology rather than american.

To anyone who can answer...
Lets pretend Russia sends a huge missile towards Poland.
The missile is intercepted in mid air.

Now if the explosion is big this can do massive damage to Poland and Poles regardless cant it?
Afaik, some types of explosions are more deadly if exploded in mid air compared to ground impact.

Now as for Russian or American technology...
Poland has had equipment from both the "west" and "east".
I think a combination might just be a good thing.

For example if Poland is too buy F22s in the future or Sukhoi PAK FA jets. I would personally go with the Sukhois,, which are far cheaper and have similar performance.

F22 seems to have breathing problems for the airpilots. F22 performs the same as older generation planes in close range combat anyway. It only excels in long/medium range.

the missile defense shield was not meant for a threat from Russia, as far as i am aware, it was Russia who saw it as a threat.

would Russia be in danger of fallout if they sent nukes towards Poland.

@ legend, look up the "czar" bomb...7.1 on the Richter scale; then again it was this site i first ever even heard of it so, thanks.

He meant that it's wrong because the Obama administration scrapped the Bush plan after he promised it. Changes in US presidents shouldn't affect Poland's safety, that's all he meant. Poland should have it's own missile defense, where it alone controls it. Russian S-300,400, & 500 series missiles are rated as very good, but I don't think they are an equal to American SM-3s. The THAAD system still needs tests and improvement to become fully operational.

thanks for that clarification PB

Correct me if I am wrong..
From what I have heard (random radio show) one reason to strengthen NATO in case Iran does something "bad".

But we all know NATO doesnt like Russia. So it has 2 for 1 purpose(s).


The S-300 can still strike 4th and some 4.5 gen fighter jets
S400-S500? I would think these can down anything out there. Im betting S400 can down F22s.
I dont know anything about SM3s though.

This is why the US and Israel were protesting so loudly the possible sale of the S-300 &S-400 systems to Iran.
Poland's defense ministry has announced that it plans to purchase a fleet of 41 UAVs or drones for it's armed forces.

Hey interesting thread. Love to talk militray.

First here is a pretty good piece from Stratfor on Poland strategy. Give it a read. I think it lays out Poland options and backs up the need for well thought out defense spending for a well armed defensive army that can fight a long delaying action. Historically Poland does not have many options. Poland can not win a fight on both boarders. So must embrace a strong 3rd party like the US and NATO. Currently Russia is not a threat but it will be further down the road as it rebuilds its forces and projects power. As this article states Poland problem at start of WW II was they could not fight long enough to allow allies to intervene on there behalf and effect the outcome. Poland faces a similar future. A strong enough army to be respected and able to fight a long batter until others can come to aid.

stratfor.com/weekly/polands-strategy?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20120828&utm_term=gweekly&utm_content=re admore&elq=0d5d67644a9c469cba81a283908bf09f

I also saw in previous post comment about infrastructure. In US in our interstate highway system that was built after WW II had a lot to do with the movement of military equipment to ports in the event of conflict. Go back another 2000 years to the Romans - why do you think they built all those roads. Poland does need to improve its networks for sure to ensure a more secure future..

My 2 cents. And I do have good respect for Polish Army. Your GROM from what I read has been fighting alongside US SF for a long time and what I read has earned a big respect of US Commandos. In Chris Kyle book American Sniper he specifically comments on GROM and how awesome they are.

peace

The site militaryphotos.net has several threads devoted to Polish Armed forces. Here is a pointer to "Polish Armed Forces SOF pics" thread, militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?208358-Polish-Armed-Forces-SOF-pics

It is about five Polish special forces: JW Grom, JW Komandosów, JW Formoza, JW Agat and JW Nil . [JW stands for Jednostka Wojskowa, Military Unit] The first two have been active the longest in Afghanistan. Nowadays, with the exception of the newly formed JW Agat, they all operate there in some capacity.

Thanks boletus. Really nice pictures. Lot of variety in Polish SF.

Curious does Poland award valor awards like US Silver Star or British VC? I know Germany has struggled with this and created a Gold Cross for valor to award its troops. Poland?

Quite a bunch. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_awards_and_decorations] lists all Polish civilian and military orders, decorations and medals. The oldest (1792, reactivated in 1919) and highest military decoration is War Order Virtuti Military for valor in the face in enemy. It comes in five classes: Silver Cross, Gold Cross, Knight Cross, Commandor Cross, Great Cross. Awarded to persons, military units and even navy ships.

Some military decorations are given for actions in peace time, some are for combat valor against acts of terrorism in Poland and abroad. Military Cross is a combat decoration, conferred to a military, irrespective of rank and service for combat valor against an act of terror in the territory of Poland or while on a mission of the Armed Forces overseas. Established in 2007. It comes in three classes: (I) Great Cross, (II) Commander Cross, and (III) Knight Cross. Most soldiers who died in Afghanistan have been posthumously awarded the Knight Cross of Military Cross.

At the very bottom of the hierarchy are stars awarded to any soldier having serving abroad: Afghanistan Star (since 2002), Iraq Star (2003-2008), Chad Star (EUFOR and MINURCAT 2008-2009), Congo Star (EUFOR RD CONGO 2006), Mediterranean Sea Star (For service in Active Endeavour; since 2005), Air Crew Star (for service, inter alia, in Baltic Air Policing; since 2005).

Polish Army Medal is a special medal, since it is awarded for services to the Polish armed forces by foreign civilian and military personnel. Since 1999.

Botetus
Thats really interesting information on the awards. Obviously Poland, like most of Europe, has a long tradition of military and civil decorations. By comparison the US being a younger country has taken longer to develop its traditions and awards. Most developments coming from what I can see in three phases Civil War 1861-65 Medal of Honor first award for all valor acts. WW I Distinguished Service Cross and the years between the two great wars. This is a pretty good wiki with pictures -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_military

This page will link you to citations which in many cases are small little stories of valor.
militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/list.php?category=Awards

One difference I did note Poland issues stars for service overseas. US calls this campaign and service medals for various conflicts or actions overseas.

Getting of the SF subject does Poland have a plan for heavy forces to counter threat to the east or just going for light and mobile?

I am not expert on strategic military issues, but perhaps you wish to read this expose by Polish four-star general Mieczysław Cieniuch, Chief of the General Staff of the Polish Armed Forces, in Military Technology Magazine:

miltechmag.com/2012/09/mspo-recent-and-future-developments-in.html

Check also this thread about MSPO-2012 (Międzynarodowy Salon Przemysłu Obronnego) - Internatonal Exhibition of Defence Industry, in Kielce, Poland. You will find there a bunch of official materials from various exhibitors (400 or so), but also some photographs taken by individuals visiting the place. Today is the first day of the exhibition, so there will be more photographs coming.

militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?217041-MSPO-2012-Military-industry-exhibition

boletus
Very interesting thanks. Love to see what Poland's future force structure might look like at 2020.

I'm pretty sure that NATO doctrine hasn't actually changed that much - they would expect to be overwhelmed in the first phase, but then they would counterattack by unleashing nuclear hell upon the invading forces.

What's interesting to me is the lack of emphasis on territorial integrity - Poland has no real "border zone" to speak of, unlike Finland, Ukraine and many other countries.

Delp - I will assume you are being lighthearted joker here.... don't think Poland has any nukes nor no matter the potential downside want them used. Yes Poland kind of lost out in the area of natural boarders.

Anyway Russians are currently a paper Bear when it comes to being any kind of military threat to anyone. But that means Poland should use the time to build a good solid game plan. And never rely on the west for help the day the Slavs come again. After all they have been coming for well over a thousand years so no reason to stop now.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechfeld

A battle fought a little to the south in 995 but illustrates the point.

250 soldiers from the NATO Multinational Military Police Battalion currently takes part in the "Sharp Lynx 12" exercise. The unit was established in 2007 and is made of gendarmes from Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Croatia. They all train on their own, but once a year they join for tactical exercise of the entire batalion in order to develop uniform procedures and exchange experiences. This year thet met at the military training grounds in Wędrzyn, Poland.

The exercise began on September 17; it will last five days and end with an examination. If the soldiers pass it, the battalion will become a part of the Multinational Corps North-East, based at Szczecin.

The training began with information about a badly injured son of a local politician. The task of the military police was to organize a medical convoy and to transport the injured to the hospital. Along the way, the soldiers were attacked by the rebels. Fortunately, they were able to repel the attack.

Moments later, it turned out that one of the patrol teams hit a local Auriga man - Auriga being a fictional country where the exercise takes place. This fatal accident sparked protests and the soldiers had to negotiate with angry crowds.

"Sharp Lynx 12" reflect the realism of real operations. The roles of Aurigians and rebels are played by MPs from the Special Branch of Military Police from Minsk Mazowiecki. They are well prepared for this role since many of them were on missions to Afghanistan and Iraq, so they are well aware of the prevailing conditions there.

Some of them have not shaved for a month and regularly visited a solarium to look like the inhabitants of that distant country.

Original Polish text and photos: polska-zbrojna.pl

Any commentary on USAF F-16s etc now being based in Poland?

Major Matthew R. Spears, a senior pilot with more than 1600 flying hours, arrived in Poland this week to begin preparations to assume command of the United States Air Force Aviation Detachment at Lask Air Base. The Aviation Detachment, which will open formally in a few weeks, will be the first full-time presence of U.S. troops in Poland.

poland.usembassy.gov/com.html

How about 'It sure will be nice to have some F-16s which actually work and don't cost Poland ten of millions of dollars every year to repair'?

It would be nice if you answered the question and didn't go off topic instead. Lonman was asking about USAF F-16s to be stationed at £ask Air Base, not Polish F-16s.

But since you started, I just wonder where you get your revelations from. Sources, Harry?

I do not believe my eyes. It looks like 2006 déjà vu again, when the bunch of idiot journalists - having not the slightest ideas about the engineering notions of exploitation and reliability, jumped all over so-called catastrophic inefficiency and unreliability of Polish F-16s. Sure the malfunctions or failures have existed. During the initial period 2006-2008, a single serious malfunction on a given F-16 appeared in average every 12 hours of the flying time. This record is three times better than for Mig-29, where one malfunction appeared every 4-5 hours of flying time.

You may want to read the section 11, "The most typical critique regarding F-16s", paragraph "Defects rate" and "Spare parts", from the 2008 report, here:

mon.gov.pl/pl/strona/222/PG_154_196

Have some F-16s which actually work, Harry?
How about reading this (sorry, I have no time for translation now) for example?:
2011-11-09, Fifth anniversary of exploitation of F-16s
mon.gov.pl/pl/artykul/12083

You may also want to consult these Polish Air Force pages:
sp.mil.pl
Some of the pages are in English.

Harry, the military expert :)))))

Is this good or bad for such an aircraft?

[There must be something newer in MON site, than the 2008 article I presented as the first link, but unfortunately their web masters have not learned yet how to organize search through their database time-wise, starting from the newest articles. So the searches there are really mundane. When I have time, I'll try to find something appropriate from the year 2012.]

Summarizing the 2008 article, section 11:
1. As I said before: 1 malfunction per 12 hours on F-16 compared to 1 malfunction per 4-5 hours on Mig-29. Not bad, considering many factors.
2. According to reliability theory the intensity of malfunctions is high at the beginning of exploitation, then go down with time to some minimal plateau level and then starts growing up again when parts become worn. This is a so-called bathtub curve, since it looks like a cross section of the old fashioned tub. F-16 has about 200,000 parts. Think about it for a while.

3. Poland bought the newest version of F-16, so-called block 52+, not used by anyone before that. Some of the malfunctions are typical to initial/experimental exploitation. This is why the Polish-American team of experts decided to plan for three years of spare parts in advance, with extra margin provided.

4. Before accepting the delivery of any F-16 the Polish technicians went through about 80 pages of very detailed technical procedures. The more faults they initially found the better for the exploitation of the craft.

5. The package of spare parts, was prepared based on the experience of USAF and other users of F-16s. For that $123 millions were reserved. It was assumed that the last spare part would be used three years after the delivery of the last of the 48 Polish F-16s, that is around year 2011. That leads to $0.28 millions per single aircraft F-16 - again less than for MIG-29 and Su-22.

There is also a lot to be said about so-called offset.
2011-05-25
logistyka.wnp.pl/dotychczas-ok-5-5-mld-dolarow-z-offsetu-po-kupnie-samolotow-f-16,141051_1_0_0.html

The offset agreement, concluded in 2003 with the company Lockheed Martin for the purchase of F-16 amounted to 6.028 billion dollars, or about 170 percent of delivery. After eight years, the ministry of the economy describes the contract as satisfactory.

2012-09-28
logistyka.wnp.pl/bydgoszcz-centrum-obslugi-i-napraw-samolotow-f-16,151791_1_0_0.html

Maintenance and repair of aircraft F-16 within the offset framework, including electrical, hydraulics and chassis, will be conducted in the WZL nr 2 (Military Aircraft Factory No. 2) in Bydgoszcz - announced the Ministry of Economy on Wednesday,

In May WZL No. 2 signed an agreement with Lockheed Martin Corporation regarding the transfer of technology and infrastructure for dry paint stripping and painting of the F-16s. The Bydgoszcz plant will receive technology of old paint removal and painting of these machines, as well as necessary equipment and machinery for this work. Lockheed also provides funding for the construction of the hangar for such work.

"The positive opinion of the Committee for Offset Agreements means for us the consent for another deal with Lockheed, which will allow us to carry out maintenance, repair and overhaul of aggregates and hydraulic, avionics, pneumatics and fuel system" - said spokesman for WZL No. 2, Piotr Rutkowski.

Offset Agreement between the Polish State Treasury and Lockheed Martin Corporation, regarding - inter alia - service support of F-16 aircraft, was signed on April 18, 2003. Its value is 6.028 billion dollars, and the contract expires in 2013.

2012-06-12, Poles in Red Flag exercise

More than 70 aircrafts took part in Red Flag exercise in Alaska, starting from Eielson near Fairbanks. Among them 6 (out of 8) Polish F-16C/D Block 52+.

[One F-16 had to stop at Boston to check on one of the malfunctioning systems (perhaps landing gear). Another F-16 kept it a company. They joined the rest few days later, but did not take part in the main exercise. Details here: 2012-05-24.

This was a big deal to be there, as the crafts could train with the real munition, which is not possible on this scale anywhere in Europe.

A curiosity:

All Polish Air Force F-16 taking part in Red Flag are equipped with conformal tanks (block 52+), enabling them longer range, longer time spent in the air. Unlike traditional tanks hanged under the fuselage or the wings, the conformal tanks do not increase the aerodynamic drag. According to Polish pilots, their F-16s were the envy of other participants in the exercise - exactly because of these tanks. They could continue with their exercises when another aircrafts were running out of fuel. Thanks to that the Polish pilots could practice more tactical elements during one sortie.


Something recent Harry here, just for you.

2012-10-08. altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=8759&q=F-16

Today afternoon Polish F-16s from 32 BLT (32 Air Base in £ask) returned from British exercise MACE XIV. [There is one squadron #10 in £ask, with 13 F-16C and 3 F-16D (two-seaters)]

The seven-days exercise, which involved crew of 40 Poles, was held in the British Air Base in Leeming, UK - with dedicated proving ground in Spadeam. The goal of the exercise was to test effectiveness of the radar ground stations, part of the air defences, against Polish F-16 in a strictly specified time limit.

After realizing the risk of being tracked down the pilot performed defensive maneuvers, using self-defence measures in the form of flares and dipoles. After landing, during the debriefing, the effectiveness of the pilot's defensive maneuvers was also being assessed.

Much of what I know about the F-16 deal comes from people who I doubt would like their unguarded comments at social occasions to be repeated publicly with their names attached.

But here's a nice source for you with numbers:
upi.com/Top_News/2007/10/02/Polish-F-16-jets-make-emergency-landings/UPI-64671191349568


That article dates from October 2007. So to cover needs between Q4 2007, more probably Q1 2008 when the parts actually arrived and 2010, the Polish MoD ordered $123 million worth of spare parts. Let's say that in fact they ordered twice as much as they needed and so had parts for six years rather than three. That still means the planes are costing tens of millions of dollars per year in spare parts alone. Of course, as an expert in aircraft maintenance, you'll know that spare parts cannot simply be hammered into planes by alcoholics in a field but that they actually require highly trained and skilled technicians working in conditions not far off those found in laboratories. Perhaps you could tell us how many millions are spend on building and maintaining those facilities and on hiring and training those technicians?


Marvelous stuff.
You remind me of Soviet-era propaganda: "Comrades! Look at this Soviet watermelon! It is 20 times the size of the best apple which the cowering imperialists in American can grow!"

But let's compare apples to apple: how often do US F-16s suffer serious malfunctions? Dutch F-16s? What is the global average?
And then there's the small point about cost. Remind us how much Poland paid for her Mig-29s. And then tell us for how many centuries Poland would need to fixing the Migs three times more often than F-16s would have needed before Poland spent more than the F-16s cost.

And then tell us how much it would have cost to simply modernise those Mig-29s to be comparable to Polish F-16s. I. seeing $2.7 million per plane as being the cost but my source is Defense News, and you clearly know far more than mere journalists ever will.


Yes, the F-16 only dates back to the Vietnam war, so clearly there hasn't been enough time to iron out the problems.


Yes, there is. Let's see what Robert E. Scott, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal research group in Washington has to say about them:


nytimes.com/2003/02/16/business/a-well-kept-military-secret.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


Hmm, so when I said "cost Poland ten of millions of dollars every year to repair", I was spot on.

But to come to the point, which you won't understand in Toronto, there were actually at that time quite a few better things Poland could have spent three and a half billion dollars on that some nice shiny new toys for the military to play with. Many of us who live in Poland and pay taxes here would have much preferred to see the existing Mig-29s modernised and the remaining $3.4 billion spent on things that help Poland.

I think we shouldn't talk about the vast amounts of American experts employed in Poland working on these things.

I've met a few - great guys, very open and interested in Poland - but they're still on hideously huge salaries to be here. I met one guy a long time ago who rented a flat valued at 10,000zl a month and felt it was "cheap". All of them are ex-military guys too - really is an example of "jobs for the boys".

Harry, the insider :))) Harry knows, Harry found the link :)))))))))


You don't even realize how terribly funny you are :)))))))