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Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps'


Lyzko 18 | 5,178    
13 Feb 2018  #691
Frankly, the punishment fits the crime! Denying factual history should be subject to getting one's just desserts.
mafketis 16 | 6,200    
13 Feb 2018  #692
Denying factual history should be subject to

freedom of expression. You either believe in freedom of speech (which includes the freedom to say things that you believe are wrong or dangerous) or you don't. I do.
OP WielkiPolak 57 | 1,052    
13 Feb 2018  #693
@Lyzko

5 years in prison for saying something factually incorrect. Really?
SigSauer 2 | 439    
13 Feb 2018  #694
@Lyzko

Whose facts? The Russians think that they won the second world war by their lonesome, and that Stalin was Georgian so the pogroms and holodomor were actually Georgia's fault and not the USSR's. I mean, that's quite a subjective distinction. You should be free to espouse whatever view of history you want, it doesn't mean I have to buy into it. The onus is on the reader/listener to do their own research, to look to their own sources, and make their own conclusion. You can deny the holocaust if you like, I'll think you're an idiot, but I don't think you should be sanctioned by the state for being ill-informed or uneducated, and I would venture to say anyone who does think the state should sanction people for espousing stupid things like that is themselves a tyrant.
shockedInpoland    
13 Feb 2018  #695
Whose facts? The Russians think that they won the second world war by their lonesome,

To be fair,the British and Americans think the same thing about their victories.
OP WielkiPolak 57 | 1,052    
13 Feb 2018  #696
Haha true. England, Russia and the USA all think they won the war. So you will get a different version depending on the country you live in.
shockedInpoland    
13 Feb 2018  #697
You can deny the holocaust if you like, I'll think you're an idiot,

Holocaust deniers are not doing it from ignorance, they want to erase it from history so they can re-instate the Nazi's and finish the job.
mafketis 16 | 6,200    
13 Feb 2018  #698
The Russians think that they won the second world war by their lonesome

In Europe that was largely true, the allies helped a little in the west but the hard work was done by the soviets. The Americans did mostly win the pacific theater.

Georgia's fault and not the USSR's.

I think the distinction is Soviet (Stalin) vs Russian but Stalin is being rehabilitated now so...
OP WielkiPolak 57 | 1,052    
13 Feb 2018  #699
Holocaust deniers are not doing it from ignorance

I think many of them just don't like Jews, at all. They realise it happened but think that the number of Jewish deaths has been greatly inflated and the Holocaust is now just used as an industry for Jewish organisations to make money [that part is partially true], so they deny it every happened just to **** off the Jews.

Perhaps some extreme conspiracy theorists do believe it was a hoax, but not many I think.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,848    
13 Feb 2018  #700
In Europe that was largely true, the allies helped a little in the west but the hard work was done by the soviets.

I went to the site of the Battle of Dukla Pass last summer, and although I like to think of myself as being knowledgable about WW2, I was shocked to discover just how long and brutal the battle was there for the Soviets. Both sides fought like hell, and the casualty numbers from that one offensive alone are ridiculously high.
Lyzko 18 | 5,178    
13 Feb 2018  #701
Anyone denying the historical authenticity of the Shoah, should in fact be punished, at least fined substantially, for spreading lies.
Hope David Irving still has his hearing to listen to what the Polish law means for the dissemination of facts.

The point here really is that, while the Camps were operated and conceived of by Germans, representatives/henchmen of Hitler's authority throughout Occupied Europe, they were still (technically) situated in Poland. Hence they are German camps which were in Poland.

Jedwabne and Kielce though cannot be whitewashed.

@Maf, free speech doesn't mean hate speech. Irresponsible speech, like liberty itself, is never free!!
G (undercover)    
13 Feb 2018  #702
Jedwabne and Kielce though cannot be whitewashed.

Yawn... What we actually really need is serious project, involving historians from many countries, to estimate how many Jews were killed (directly and indirectly) by Poles, how many Poles were killed by Jews and what was the effect of overall Polish activity during WW2 on the so called Holocaust. What would be your estimates ?
Lyzko 18 | 5,178    
13 Feb 2018  #703
My "estimates" are that comparing Jews killed by gentiles or vice versa is an insultingly ridiculous exercise in futility. Say you're just walking along the street and six guys jump you and try to kill you, you're not merely going to let them do so, are you? 'Course not! You'll fight them off tooth and nail.

Sadly, in such a situation as the Jews often found themselves, it was only a matter of kill or be killed.

Survival cannot and should not be reduced to an intellectual exercise for the purposes of mere parlor games for the idle bored among us.
G (undercover)    
13 Feb 2018  #704
Sadly, in such a situation as the Jews often found themselves, it was only a matter of kill or be killed.

What are you talking about ?

According to some crazy dude from Canada, Poles are responsible for 200k Jewish deaths during the WW2, of course his "methodology" is shyt... but Jewish Historical institute claims 50k, still it's "Jewish" so likely it's no more than half of that, mostly "indirectly", but let's say it's 25k. Then we can estimate the number of Polish Goys killed by Jews serving in NKVD, Red Army or "Jewish partizants" like Bielski bros. Add to that the number of Jews saved by Poles, the number of Jews that would have been most likely killed If Poles were sitting on their asses instead of fighting from Norway to Africa - these days you can put the data (including capacity of ovens) and get it estimated by friggin computers.

What's would be wrong with that ? Is it "evil" just like re-opening Jedwabne investigation ?

Or perhaps result would be "politically incorrect" :))) ?
Ironside 47 | 9,206    
14 Feb 2018  #705
Anyone denying the historical authenticity of the Shoah, should in fact be punished

Why? In Israel they can do whatever they like. Why would any other country bother with it? Anyhow, the Shoah my ass, people were being killed left right and center in the 20th, before it as well as after. Buying it you it is agreeing that Jews are a special case. They are not, maybe they just 'special'.

he point here really is that,

Yes, you're definitely are 'special' if you after so much talk and info came with something like that.
Also 'technically' they were in the III Reich or The General Government.

Jedwabne and Kielce though cannot be whitewashed

BS! If you don't know why that is BS then you are indeed 'special'!
Let remember Koniuchy then. I think Israel gov. should issue an official apology and compensation.

By the way web responded to that unacceptable acts of Israeli officials and seems that Israel doesn't scoured any point of the general populace around the world. Nobody likes them. Small wonder.
SigSauer 2 | 439    
14 Feb 2018  #706
Honestly the motivations of a person who chooses to deny something such as the holocaust really don't matter, if it's from ignorance or malice. The states job is not to police the thoughts of individuals, only the actions. If there are people who make those denials, it's really rather inconsequential, the history books and the status quo still exist, and those of us living here in reality know that the holocaust happened. Individuals have the right to 'deny' or 'affirm' whatever they want, and should be free to express an opinion however ill-informed or intentionally derisive and malicious, so long as they aren't physically harming any other human beings, without consequence from the state. This is a very clear issue of free speech, and its binary.
cms 9 | 1,290    
14 Feb 2018  #707
But its not binary and its not clear. If i went into the streets of your honetown and plastered a bunch of posters saying you were a child molester that would be malicioud but would not harm you physically. People could believe it or not but you only need a few idiots to believe it for that to have life changing consequences.

I remember about 20 years back hindu clerics whipping up a crowd who literally dismantled a mosque stone by stone and caused riots that killed a few hundred people. Should that he allowed ?

Your idea that free spech should be unlimited assumes people to be noble - they are not. Saying it is binary belongs in the high school debating society
SigSauer 2 | 439    
14 Feb 2018  #708
You missed the mark completely on this one CMS. You've attempted to conflate a misstatement of fact regarding history with libel&slanderous speech, which are illegal and are exceptions to free speech. A persons BELIEF that an event in history didn't happen can cause physical harm to no one, whereas an intentional campaign of slander does have real consequences for a persons reputation and character. You're comparing apples to moon rocks on this one my friend. If you read what I wrote, I said people should be free to express an OPINION. If I paper the town with pamphlets describing you as a child molester, that isn't an opinion, because I'm intentionally making statements which I know to be untrue, and which are aimed at damaging your character. There is a small movement of idiots across the globe who proclaim the Earth to be flat, and go to great lengths to espouse this view point. Why wouldn't we sanction them? A law like this turns the state into the thought police.

You think it's also possible to voice your countering opinion on this matter without trying to be intentionally rude and insulting?
mafketis 16 | 6,200    
14 Feb 2018  #709
should in fact be punished, at least fined substantially, for spreading lies.

So you don't believe in freedom of speech.... and you think the historical accuracy of the narrative is so delicate that it can't stand criticism? Maybe it does need to be investigated...

free speech doesn't mean hate speech

Who defines hate speech?
gregy741 3 | 1,118    
14 Feb 2018  #710
denying the historical authenticity of the Shoah

how about Armenian genocide? how about vikings crimes? or mongols burning down kiev?
prosecuting historians for any claims not matter if correct or not is Fkin DUMB
Strange that only holocaust related issues are being prosecuted if not presented in certain way. ahh isnt it because its multi billion industry?

as for those who defend "polish death camps"as merely geographical term,not some antypolish malicious one.
strange that you dont hear Asian,African,EE countries ,Russia,Arab countries using it.
its always western Europe and anglosaxon countries.and mostly "libtard" media
mafketis 16 | 6,200    
14 Feb 2018  #711
how about Armenian genocide? how about vikings crimes? or mongols burning down kiev?

How about Rwanda? Cambodia? Palestine? Why is all concern about genocide supposed to be about Germany in WWII it wasn't the first or last or even the largest (proportionately). If all thought of genocide is limited to the holocaust then there's nothing to learn about genocide...
gregy741 3 | 1,118    
14 Feb 2018  #712
If all thought of genocide is limited to the holocaust

not even that.you can deny that poles or gypsies were not killed in holocaust or in Auschwitz-no problem..its only when jewish are concerned in denial you get legally prosecuted

how grotesque is that?
ShockedInPoland    
14 Feb 2018  #713
Poland in no way agreed to collaboration
From Arkady Rzegocki, Polish Ambassador to the UK

ft.com/content/af621ae2-0ce6-11e8-8eb7-42f857ea9f09
Lyzko 18 | 5,178    
14 Feb 2018  #714
@Maf, I see you've never heard of either slander or libel, apparently! That's "free" speech too, yet clearly (and justifiably) punishable, as it can damage another's reputation, livelihood etc. As I pointed out, "FREEdom" is never free, it must be jealously guarded in order that the needs of all are served who seek truth.

You seem super mired in '60's lefty, socialist-type garbage, don't you!

@G(undercover), Jedwabne investigation "evil"?? Something to hide here, have we?
Lyzko 18 | 5,178    
14 Feb 2018  #715
@Gregy,

The Holocaust is considered to stand alone among history's worst massacres, including those which you mention as well as the mass slaughter over the decades of Native Americans, for the reason that never before did a single gov't. of a modern, industrially developed nation, singly and without significant foreign aid, methodically, calculatedly, and consistently make it their ideology to destroy root and branch an entire peoples within that country's midst, exclusively based on biological reasons!
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,793    :-(
14 Feb 2018  #716
Jedwabne and Kielce though cannot be whitewashed.

No one's whitewashing it though. This was the act of some locals - not the legit Polish government, or the military (AK), etc - which the Jewish Communists and their Soviet allies were too busy killing. The PL government even said yes that there were incidents of banditry but never did the Polish government or the Polish people set up death camps, or as you say conduct a massive genocide against the Jews.

If we're going to be honest it's gotta be both sides - yes Poles did commit crimes against Jews during and the years after WW2. However, what the commie Jews and Soviets did to Poles from the time to the Red Army invaded all the way to 67-68 resulted in a far higher body count. Many of those people remain in PL, some still in power to this day. Poles don't have anything to hide - yet whenever Poles have called for lustration and a thorough investigation and exposing of all the crimes during the Commie era, PO always resists because they have too much to hide.

I remember about 20 years back hindu clerics whipping up a crowd who literally dismantled a mosque stone by stone and caused riots that killed a few hundred people. Should that he allowed ?

So Hindus will take apart mosques stone by stone??? Damn we need a massive Hindu migration into Europe then! Perhaps the future of France, Germany, etc lies in a massive migration from India. But the short answer is depends on the nations' laws. Saudi Arabia executes anyone spreading any religion aside from Islam for example. So a guy reading verses out of the bible in Jeddah's square could potentially be put to death for such a 'crime'
TheOther 5 | 3,539    
14 Feb 2018  #717
... exclusively based on biological reason!

Is a genocide based on political or religious reasons more tolerable?
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,793    :-(
14 Feb 2018  #718
Apparently so. That's why you have so many Commie apologists today
mafketis 16 | 6,200    
14 Feb 2018  #719
I see you've never heard of either slander or libel, apparently!

Unrelated to the topic at hand.

never before did a single gov't. of a modern, industrially developed nation

That's the only really unique thing with the holocaust, although other governments have arguably killed more people (like the Soviets and Chinese).

The 20th century was marked by lots o' genocide - making it all about the holocaust alone disrespects other victims.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,793    :-(
14 Feb 2018  #720
Slander and libel laws are not international - each country has their own. In Poland, it is just as illegal to deny the holocaust and nazi crimes against jews and poles as to deny the commie/soviet crimes against the Poles people



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