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Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps'



cms 9 | 1,301    
12 Feb 2018  #661

How has the system passsed from generation to generation ? Purest nonsense.

How have Jews sold Poland's interests to the EU ?

Ironside 46 | 8,516    
12 Feb 2018  #662

Even if someones Grandfather was hanging AK soldiers why does that matter now ?

It matter now because families pass down the generation certain values or not. In such a case being a traitor entail some attitude that passes down to a grandchild in some extend. Especially so if for PRL being a traitor meant privileges.
cms 9 | 1,301    
12 Feb 2018  #663

And how long does this continue ? One generation ? 3 generations ? 30 generations ? Most intelligent people can make up their own mind about the world - things I remember from my Grandma ? Share your toys with your brother and don't mix your drinks.

So what you are saying is that someone born in Poland, with Polish citizenship, speaking Polish, raising Polish kids, paying Polish tax is not Polish ? What if their grandparents were not Ubeks but were roadsweepers ?

What is weird is that attitude is coming also from Americans - I thought a sacred tenant of American life was to be who you want to be based on your own merits.
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
12 Feb 2018  #664

Its not their 'grandparents' a ton of prl people are still in government anx like i said even pis has a few. However pis are the ones pushing for lustration and prosecuting financial and political corruption during both prl and po years. Po consistently resists lustration efforts that pis and the population push for including po supporters.

Like i said, the jewis population is well integrated into polish society today. That wasnt the case during ww2. Many of the same poeiple who changed their names in the 60s to polish ones are still alive and many in power.

Most poles, esp older ones, understand prl history and how it impacts modern poland till today. You wouldnt be asking how the prl and 'grandparents' in charge then and many still now, impacts modern polish society if you had a good understanding of prl history or have family who lived during that time

In my opinion, and indeed tens of millions of poles share this opinion, that once you're a traitor to poland and its people you no longer aee considered a pole by most in polish society. Unfortunately, during prl esp during thebearly years there was no checks and balances and traitors sold out poland and irs people to russia. Had those same people do the same stuff today theyd be charged with treason/terrorism and likely lose their citizenship.
cms 9 | 1,301    
12 Feb 2018  #665

I have family who lived in those times.

Who from the 60s who changed their name is still in power today ? They would have to be extremely old !

Is changing your name a crime ? If so it's one committed by literally millions of Polish diaspora all over the world.

There is no logic in your position on Jews in Poland today.
Ironside 46 | 8,516    
12 Feb 2018  #666

ax is not Polish ?

Well. there is certain cultural values, I call it a cultural cod. Sure people can have their own ideas and different in a lot of things but there is line once cannot cross. Once they cross it they are out. That process is more obvious and visible in Poland. That what commie occupation did to the country.

At the same time in America neo-Marxist did it too. I wouldn't call progressives and especially the youngest generation of them
In the US however realization of that fact only gradually arise and its call differently - as a danger to western civilization.
Just to simply it all for you.
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
12 Feb 2018  #667

@cms

Mr dorn aka dornbaum from the top off my head... such info is cited eben on wiki as well as numerous books essays etc by people.studying the prl that numerous jews changed their names while other fled
cms 9 | 1,301    
12 Feb 2018  #668

He has not been in power since 2007. According to wiki he joined parliament in 1997, 8 years after the round table, ,held no office in PRL times and was a kid when his parents changed their name.

But for you he is a problem because he was born Jewish - I don't like the guy myself but he seems like a fairly dedicated public servant
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 921    
12 Feb 2018  #669

PiS chairman Jaroslaw Kaczynski has stated that there is no way Poland will be paying compensation for the crimes committed by Nazi Germany.

fronda.pl/a/kaczynski-polska-nie-zaplaci-zydom-podatku-od-niemieckich-zbrodni%2C106460.html

I like that PiS are not dancing around the issue. They can see the outrage broke out only because the law has thrown a spanner in the works to squeeze compensation out of Poland for the Holocaust. Now Kaczynski, when referring to the issue, flat out says there will be no payments, even though that isn't what the outrage is 'officially' about. It's about money and it's in the open now, even being publicly mentioned by the PiS chairman. I like that.

In the meantime, it seems Israel is still throwing its toys out of the pram. Knesset is working on recalling ambassador Azari as a form of protest and I honestly don't think Poland should care if they do.

tvp.info/35980398/komisja-knesetu-pracuje-nad-odwolaniem-ambasador-anny-azari-cel-wywrzec-presje-na-polske
Ziemowit 8 | 2,679    
12 Feb 2018  #670

I don't like the guy myself

Why not? He is a very intelligent man and his political analyses are always excellent. Remember he was once a close political friend of the KaczyƄski brothers to the extent that he was commonly knick-named a "third twin" here in Poland.

To be honest I have never realised that Ludwik Dorn was of Jewish origin and this is yet one of those things I got to know on from this forum which never come up in Poland in normal circumstances. If you asked a hundred people in Poland if he was, some 97 or more would tell you they did not know and they did not care. Believe me, the vast majority of people in Poland do not rummage in people's CV in search of their Jewish ancestry. That is ridiculous and typical only for some maniacs here in Poland or perhaps for some of the Polish people who emmgrated to Norway and decided to stay there or (even more likely) the Polish people who left Poland for the US as children and are now much more American than Polish.

The US is quite strange in this respect (of Polish-Jewish relations). As someone in Poland once said, both the Polish and the Jewish people who emmigrated to America from Poland took their pre-1939 prejudices with them and passed them on the future generations. Meanwhile Poland has changed a lot to the extent that it has become a foreign country for them as far as anti-semitism is concerned.

Here's an interesting interview with Ludwik Dorn for you:
wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/7,114884,22736940,ludwik-dorn-dla-gazeta-pl-mateusz-morawiecki-dostal-od-j.html

Personally, I am quite happy that neither myself nor the people who surround me on a daily basis don't feel the need to ponder upon who is of Jewish descent and who is not in Poland. Poland has changed very much in this field and thank God for that!
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
12 Feb 2018  #671

Looks like next Poland will vote to limit exports of kosher meats -

jta.org/2018/02/12/news-opinion/world/report-poland-to-vote-on-restricting-kosher-meat-exports

Good - this will save Poles money on their grocery bill as the Kosher symbol is BS. There's a ton of different food producers, including enormous companies like Jack Daniels, that put a sticker on their foods/drinks to label them kosher. They pay rabbis an exorbitant fee and if they refuse the Zionists will claim they're antisemetic. The kosher scam forces all people who don't care whether their food is kosher or not, meaning 99% of society, to pay slightly more for those goods.

you he is a problem because he was born Jewish

No, I don't have any issue with Jews. My girlfriend is Orthodox Jewish (many orthodox despise Zionism and believe that Jews have strayed far from the preaching's of the Torah). My issue is that he is one of the many secret commies who changed their names to hide their crimes during PRL years. He changed his name to deceive Poles - that's why I dontl like him.

There is no logic in your position on Jews in Poland today.

I am not criticizing ALL Jews in Poland - just those who were involved in the PRL system that oppressed Poles, those who resist lustration, and those who sell out Poland's vital interests (the pro EU Marxists who want one thing - usually leftist liberalism and degradation of culture, the family unit, historical roots, etc. for Polish goys, the opposite for Israel - nationalism, supremacy, preserving culture at any cost, etc.) Same with Michnik - his opinions on Israel are very supremacist and nationalist yet he's a total lefty in Polish affairs and cconstantly criticizes Poland but REFUSES to admit that Israel is treated the Jews as bad as the blacks in South Africa under apartheid. I am not against Jews - I am against anyone who harms the interests of Poland, our conservative Christian society, and family values which are enshrined in the constitution.

I am not against Jews - I am against anyone who harms the interests of Poland, our conservative Christian society, and family values which are enshrined in the constitution. It just happens to be that the majority of the people who were traitors and sold Poland out were the communist jews during the years immediately after ww2 where there was a sort of civil war between Poles and the government in exile versus Jewish communists and their backers in Moscow. Many of those same people continued to rule throughout the PRL or passed on their positions/clout to their family members/friends who ruled well into martial law Poland and the political parties to form in the 90s. They've resisted lustration ever since because they don't want Poles to know the scope of all their crimes and have evidence. For now, Poles can only go off of what the facts and evidence they have. However, a complete lustration would reveal far, far more. It is quite telling how vehemently PO resists this.

PiS chairman Jaroslaw Kaczynski has stated that there is no way Poland will be paying compensation for the crimes committed by Nazi Germany.

Damn straight. We can pay Israel for the 100 200 or so that died in 2 pogroms commited by native Poles against Jews - yes a whole 2 pogroms in all the years during WW2 to the PRL reign... BUT then they must pay us for the thousands of AK members, priests, peasants, etc that were killed under Jewish leadership - many of whom went to Israel who REFUSED to extradite them back to Poland to face trial. I.e. Solomon Morel - the head of arguably the most notorious prison camp of the PRL.

Of course, Poles know about all this... yet this is somehow a surprising topic and revelation here because of all the so called 'experts' on Poland who think they know Poles to a tee yet most can't even ask the locals how they feel about this or that in Polish.... Regardless, even to nonPoles the feelings, mannerisms, and the things that Poles hold dear to their heart is very clear. Just look at the news about Poland or the way the majority supports populism, conservatism, Christianity, etc. The lefties here constantly complain that Poland should kiss up to the EU, allow hordes of migrants, sell out vital interests to foreign investors, and that the nationalist government is pushing away investment (which is actually the OPPOSITE of what's happening as the economy and unemployment rates not to mention wages, IMPROVED under PiS - plus the 500zl plan), becoming more isolated and people will face a decline in wages, subsidies, etc. The reality is Poles have face everything from abject poverty to riches and bouncing between having no country to being a European powerhouse. Ultimately, Poles having a Poland is more important than anything else. Poles were richer during the partition years if they lived in Germany or Austria - yet they'd rather have their own country over anything else. This is why the fight with the European Union - the existence of Poland, our faith, our sovereign independent motherland is what is most important to tens of millions of Poles. Don't believe me? Go on a bunch of Polish forums that discuss such topics and you'll see how they feel. They're not interested in the EU's dictates or appeasing the Jews/Israel as in this case. No, our sovereignty, our independence, and to have Poland ruled by Poles is what's most important to millions of Poles. Go read Polish books, go ask Poles how they feel about their country and patriotism, ask them whether they want more EU control and meddling in Poland, or less.... Ask them if they want to become like France, Germany, or Sweden. Ask them what's the important thing to them as Poles - especially amongst the youth the answers will be: Bog, Honor, Ojczyzna

And you'll see - now there's a lull in the EU-PL spat, which Poland won by the way, but if the lefties decide to tell Poland that they MUST do things like change their constitution to allow gay marriage, or be forced to take in migrants that we don't want, or have to be totally subservient to Brussels and Germany - then I guarantee you'll have tons of Poles clamoring for Polexit. EU knows this - and they know the importance of Poland especially with all the money they've invested in the country. They don't want to lose this and **** of Poland - especially not when there's an entire bloc of numerous countries who voted in right wing populists to lead the country. The EU sees that their Western Europe and our Eastern Europe are two vastly different things and Poland plans to keep it this way. We don't want Warsaw to be like Paris with trash EVERYWHERE (if you've been to Paris you know what I'm talking about - trash and even bodily waste strewn about everywhere - even in the pricey tourist areas and trendy neighborhoods) or Berlin or London where there's more mosques than starbucks, or Berlin kindergarteners are explained by their teacher how she is a lesbian and lives with a woman (the reason why a German family recently moved to Russia - they disagreed with the destruction of the family unit the german government esp merkel is complicit in), not to mention Sweden where the government has to send out phamplets to migrants telling them it's not okay to grope or rape women. I'm sorry but we Poles don't want our country to turn into that. Even half of PO supporters are firmly against such migration. That is because even with all the different personalities, worldviews, etc that Poles have - what unites tens of millions of Poles is love for our country, our culture, our traditions, our Christian faith. This is what unites us. And sadly, these things are under attack every single day in the EU dominated Western Europe. The EU constitution itself was modeled after the USSR's - that's a fact. They're pushing this sort of cultural Marxism which has turned western Europeans into a mindless mass of consumers who are constantly told to embrace multiculturalism and that any expressions of pride of your nation, your faith, your people, your culture makes you a supremacist Nazi. Well, FTS... we Poles don't care. Even during the Independence day march they said that '60k neo-nazis' marched.... I mean this is the garbage that western media is pushing... they want everyone to think that if you stand up for your culture and homeland or merely are proud of it and celebrate its indepence that makes you a Nazi... its a topsy turvy world and Poles simply don't agree with all the BS coming out of the EU. To us, it's an economic union - not a political one. We're going to remain the masters of our destiny whether the EU Israel or anyone else likes it or not. Poland is not for sale! Polska Dla Polakow - nasz kraj, nasze zasady!
G (undercover)    
12 Feb 2018  #672

Knesset is working on recalling ambassador Azari

LOL !
delphiandomine 86 | 15,954    
12 Feb 2018  #673

And you'll see - now there's a lull in the EU-PL spat, which Poland won by the way

Poland won? The general opinion is that Poland is about to lose heavily in the EU budget negotiations, and I can guarantee that the other V4 countries will turn a blind eye to Poland having problems in the negotiations if it means that they'll get a bigger piece of the pie. Poland has also pretty much lost all influence in the EU, so if that's a 'win', well...

You can talk about Poland being 'independent', but the huge figures in support of the EU tell you the real story.

PiS chairman Jaroslaw Kaczynski has stated that there is no way Poland will be paying compensation for the crimes committed by Nazi Germany.

The question on my lips is whether PiS can really resist it in the long run. The Americans are devious bastards to say the least, and it wouldn't shock me if they tied the presence of American troops in Poland to the return of property. He might be saying no now, but if the Americans start playing hardball and tying Article 5 to property restitution, then we'll see how much they can resist. The Israeli lobby in Washington right now is ridiculously strong, and Trump clearly does what they expect him to do.

Personally, I am quite happy that neither myself nor the people who surround me on a daily basis don't feel the need to ponder upon who is of Jewish descent and who is not in Poland.

Likewise. It's a total non issue, I don't remember the topic ever coming up in normal conversation. People don't care except a few unemployed fools.
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
12 Feb 2018  #674

Poland won?

Yup. No fines from EU, no 2 bil euro fine for taking in migrants, no fines for bialowieza came, Timmermans just recently AFFIRMED Poland at a big dinner they had with a bunch of representatives, diplomats, etc that Poland would continue to receive funds from eu at least till 2020 right at the change of the government reshuffle, and they are now making great inroads esp with the French, timmermans, etc. that was the whole purpose of the new pm and reshuffle - but the old core message is staying the same - he even said that Poland should help EU countries get back to their European Christian roots. Their position is very clear on this. Even merkel refused to say anything about Poland and Israel's lil fight when asked by a reporter. Plus, their support has consistently been well over 40% with 44% CBOS the most recent I seen - even wyborcza consistently cited the 40% a few times. PO is a distant third in the teens.. 17%... plus many PO voters are centrist or even light conservative

You can talk about Poland being 'independent'

Yes, because for now Polish people are getting their way. Poles do not like the political interference - they view EU as an economic and free movement union - not one to meddle in our local government affairs. We comply with a lot of things the EU asks for, the vast majority, but certain things are a red line. But yes, 80% of Poles support EU - I do too. I don't think Poland should leave the EU UNLESS the EU doesn't back off with those red lines. That's the point of the negotiations, reshuffle, dinner with Timmermans, etc.
SigSauer 2 | 334    
12 Feb 2018  #675

@delphiandomine

Maybe the 3rd time is a charm, let's give this another try. Want to justify your nationalistic statements about the State of Israel?

Still waiting on an answer....You do in fact support monoethnic theocratic states in the 21st century? Or is it just this one exception? You also seem to support nationalism in this case as well.................If Europe is for the world, why isn't Israel for the world as well? We should increase the diversity in Israel with migrants from MENA countries, shouldn't we?

From the tone of most of your previous posts on this forum, and how I interpret your political position (left of center), I thought we'd all be in agreement that theocracies have no place in the 21st century. Is this somehow an exception? I thought that Israel was a secular state, like other 1st world modern democratic states? Is that not the case, and it is instead masquerading as a democracy and in fact a theocracy using democracy as a front like other despotic theocracies? Please explain.
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
12 Feb 2018  #676

You do in fact support monoethnic theocratic states in the 21st century?

If a person is supporting Israel, than yes. Even Iran is more accepting to people of other races even though its a theocracy. Orthodox Jews, Zoroastrians, and other very small minorities don't have issues - not to mention the many ethnic groups living together in Iran peacefully. The same can't really be said for Israel.

The funny thing is both the left and right support Israel even though they're kicking out African REFUGEES, not mere migrants as loads of them are from Eritrea and sudan, but when Poland or US or another country has a strict border policy - meant to deter people not kick people are there out as in Poland - oh no then the left is against such a policy of the right. Seems Israel Japan Saudi etc can have a monoethnic state but when Poland wants one they see it as a problem.
Lyzko 17 | 3,980    
12 Feb 2018  #677

Many Polish-born Jewish Holocaust survivors have testified that their Polish gentile fellow prisoners were often most unkind to them in captivity, principally because they weren't Christians, thus perceived as "Christ killers" and other malarky!

The truth cuts both ways, as I've reiterated here numerous times.
mafketis 16 | 5,161    
12 Feb 2018  #678

their Polish gentile fellow prisoners

You do realize that "Polish prisoners of Nazi concentration camps" are hardly a representative group...

it wouldn't shock me if they tied the presence of American troops in Poland to the return of propert

What "return"? the chances that anything valuable about the property predates WWII is a fantasy 99% of the time and no, return of property should not include construction after WWII. If it's returned they should pay taxes on it since construction - no more no questions asked returns.

If they want to return to Poland to claim and live in it - fine, but if they want to stay in the US and sell it to someone in absentia then they can go chase a cat as far as I'm concerned.
nothanks - | 665    
12 Feb 2018  #679

Seems Israel Japan Saudi etc can have a monoethnic state but when Poland wants one they see it as a problem.

Japan & Saudi are Non-White so their wishes for self preservation are respected

Hollywood has successfully beaten the world over the head with their Jewish story. And I'm not just talking Holocaust

IMO this current discussion and Poland's decision to NOW argue is part of the ongoing attempt by Poland to spread its story. By doing this it helps people understand why we are weary of ethnic migrants.

Ultimately we are part of the EU, which is left oriented. So we will increasingly face pressure to turn Brown.

> For example one of the leaders of the Democratic party stated this on the government floor last week
"This was such a proud day for me because when my grandson blew out the candles on his cake, they said, 'Did you make a wish?'... He said, 'I wish I had brown skin and brown eyes like Antonio.' So beautiful, so beautiful. The beauty is in the mix," she told her House colleagues.
Lyzko 17 | 3,980    
12 Feb 2018  #680

@Maf, I'm only reporting on Jewish survivor testimony in this instance.
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
12 Feb 2018  #681

Many Polish-born Jewish Holocaust survivors have testified that their Polish gentile fellow prisoners were often most unkind to them in captivity

Not so much in captivity. Everyone is mean in prison too its a survival mechanism... esp in a concentration camp.. Outside of camps prisons etc and in Nazi occupied society it was more that they would loot peoples stuff. Also, when the concentration camps were liberated there were instances of Poles who moved into wealthier Jewish peoples home and/or took their stuff. Then they'd naturally have an altercation and the Poles felt as they could kill them. One thing to point out though is that Poles made a death penalty against szmalcowanie - basically getting szmalec, money, through extorting jews hiding places and Poles who hid Jews. It was a huge racket with a person even earning 100k German marcs - an enormous sum. AK and the underground resistance would have courts death sentence sentence Poles as well as Jews who did this.The looting wasn't nearly as bad as what the Nazis did - including to the Poles. Priceless artwork still hasn't been returned from Germany to this day.
Lyzko 17 | 3,980    
12 Feb 2018  #682

Indeed. Furthermore. much of that looted art ("Raubkunst" in German) belonged to Jewish families. There remains ongoing litigation, as I'm sure you're aware.
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
12 Feb 2018  #683

Yes absolutely certain districts of warsaw and lodz esp where successful merchants lived and government figures lived had art as well as museums of there were jewish ones as well. Recently a bunch of artwork was found in an old Nazi's dudes apartment in Germany. He had them all stacked up one on top of another in his apartment. I'm not sure exactly how they were discovered but generally they'll try to find provenance and return it to the owners or if they can't donate it to a museum
Lyzko 17 | 3,980    
12 Feb 2018  #684

Therefore, what a cruel irony that the man known as "Hitler's Art Dealer", Cornelius Guerlitt, was in fact half-Jewish!
Lyzko 17 | 3,980    
12 Feb 2018  #685

Error! Cornelius was the son (who died recently). Hildebrandt was the father known as "Hitler's Art Dealer".
Apologies for the confusion.
gregy741 3 | 1,057    
12 Feb 2018  #686

here is the problem:
Israeli journalists from top news agencies were invited to Poland to discuss recent legislation and history disputes.invited by Daniels(him again)
it appears that those people have no basic knowledge about 2 world war.polish delegation was shocked that those people though that Warsaw uprising was ghetto upraising ect.:

tvn24.pl/dyrektor-muzeum-powstania-warszawskiego-o-spotkaniu-z-dziennikarzami-z-izraela,814483,s.html
idiots lives in their matrix out there,holocaust is their new religion and knowledge is an obstacle it seems.
mafketis 16 | 5,161    
13 Feb 2018  #687

those people have no basic knowledge about 2 world war.

Not much of a war from their point of view since they didn't do much fighting but yeah, embarrassing to be so ill-informed for a group wanting to lecture others about what they can and can't say.
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 921    
13 Feb 2018  #688

One thing I found to be very telling was when some Jewish reporter tweeted [just after the outrage broke out] that with this law, Poland has managed to unite almost all of the Israeli government.

Funny how the left and right of the Israeli government are normally at each other's throat, yet when a law is brought in that they believe could hinder extracting money to Jewish organisations, they are able to unite.
Dirk diggler 6 | 1,792    
13 Feb 2018  #689

Like the stupid ***** who had nothing better to tweet than 'polish death camps' 10 times

No one in poland is saying to prevent discussion debate etc about the holocaust. We just dont the world to think poles built concentration camps when we never did. The only polish built prisons where people died en masse where ones of soviet pows in the pl soviet war mainly due to disease and the camps in prl esp the early years

Although i do believe a sentence of up to 3 years for a phrase is excessive and ludicrous. The western eu have similar laws about promotion of nazism and the holocaust but people are usually fined not put in prison
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 921    
13 Feb 2018  #690

Although i do believe a sentence of up to 3 years for a phrase is excessive and ludicrous

As is 5 years in Israel for Holocaust denial.




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