Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash

Anyway, fog isn't so important. If there wasn't fog, story/report could be written differently (supposing it wasn't accident.)

That airport was civil airport since 2009. and there are two factories nearby it, and they are aviation and yak factories (read from wiki.) There must have been some civil polices or any intelligence/security service people waiting and controlling airport area and region as important people were coming to that airport. But, video taken by some irrelevant people who shouldn't have been there in secured area.


Maybe, they needed to release it, for whatever reason, for chaos increase, who knows. If so, likely, they played with the voices too there in the video, but, couldn't do more not to damage the continuity of the data flow. Interrupted data flow in the video that could be realized by anyone could be more doubtful.

There was a mix up whereby they didn't pass it onto the relevant personnel. That's what I read.

They saw the runway? I don't think so, somehow.

Following height because?

I'll look for that link.

Thirteen top Polish military officers have been fired, and a deputy defence minister has resigned, over last year's air disaster in western Russia.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14410153

I was wondering convex where are you from? I am asking out of curiousity. You seem to have an answer for everything, a bit like the Russians.

As for your comment about the right to assume there was pressure. They had not right. The presence of a superior is not pressure. Some people are very good at handling something that others would consider to be 'high pressure' situations. This is why a superior who is in the cockpit might be wrong but it is not in any proof of pressure. Like I said this is supposed to be a report of facts not conlusions reached from different situations.

By the way why did they not mention the so called 'pressure' on the other end?

Basically what the Russians said seem very convenient in concluding that Poland is totally at fault and Russia did nothing wrong. There is so much 'dodgyness' around this whole case that it is not unreasonable for a person to be suspicious. I mean the black box has taken an age to be given to the Polish side and when it was given it was just a copy, so still no original. There was something else that was asked for recently [not sure what it was, saw it on Polish news, a recording of some sort] that the Russians have said there is no use giving to Poland as it has nothing on it and have not handed it over.

Honestly if the Russians did not feel they were at fault from the start and had nothing to hide then why be so protective? Why not assist and say here is the evidence gathered, it was a terrible tragedy, very sorry fo you, feel free to go and investigate the cause of it. Not, go away, wait till it is checked here first and then you can look at it later on when it is time to.

If you ask me, and this is purely a theory, we have had too many instances in the past of wrong doing by Russia and in this case too many things do not quite fit in to place. The report by Macierewicz is something that you should look at as the Polish Report was always going to put more blame on the Polish side and this was said many times even before it was officially released. Before anyway says that Macierewicz has an agenda, his report is not to be taken seriously, read it. A report led by a PiS representative has got just as much right to be looked at as a PO report. I still think that it is a shame that a neutral team did not take charge that was neither from Poland or Russia.

... part 2 of 3.

... part 1 of 3. 30 mins of footage as to why convex may well be wrong. You need to read a lot of info to ever hope of getting near the truth. If 9/11 didn't teach people that then we have limited hope in this world.

Using a fancy radar altimeter instead of the barometric altimeter. It corresponds with the navigators callouts.


We'll go with Moscow to add a little fuel to the fire. Just read the reports (both of them, I prefer the Polish one myself, but...meh).


The presence of a superior is pressure. There is absolutely no reason he should have been in the cockpit. Ask any airline or mil pilot (sky mentioned it earlier as well).


The MAK report criticized the Smolensk controllers as well as ATC.


There weren't any complaints.


It makes a couple of decent points, like placing blame on BOR, but the majority of it reads like political campaign material. Pilots place the majority of the blame on the Polish side for very obvious reasons. You don't bust your minimums. Simple as that. Instrument approaches are designed to be safe down to minimums, everything past that is rolling the dice. Simple fact of the matter is, had they respected the minimums and flew the approach properly, they would still be alive. Kaczynski would have a bit of egg on his face for showing up late, but they'd still be alive.

You are right Seanus , no accurate data given to him , so the pilot had to adjust the barometric altimeter using only his predictions , after he set the pressure , controllers reassured him he was right . That was their major mistake .

You should watch the videos I posted above, Monia. They are in Polish and professionally cover, through the insight of experts, that which the official reports duck. The lack of final guidance is covered too.

Did you read the report? I even gave you the page number.


With the assumption that somehow the controllers were responsible for the approach, which is ridiculous.

Exactly a month ago, several key army generals in Russia too resigned by their pressures of President Medvedev and defense minister. Reason was said to be reforms in army and those key generals were said to be against the reforms. But, it is not unknown thing that the big countries tell different reasons than real reasons. Speculation here: can there be a connection to this Smolensk incident? It wasn't a news in mainstream media in the west and in the world except some small news websites.

After watching the video , it is obvious that they were cleaning the area, but not gathering any evidences . Anywhere in the civilised world criminal and forensic experts come first to the crash scene and search for evidences scrupulously puting every piece in seperate bags . This crash scene was cleared out of evidences not investigated .

I can't help but think that a lot of the ignorance comes from the point of view that ATC are somehow responsible for everything that a plane does. It's definitely not common knowledge that the captain of the plane has the final say among non-aviation types.

Anyway, Seanus/Monia/anyone else - please, tell me one thing.

Why did the Captain break his minimums?

Tell me one thing, Delph: have you ever successfully convinced a paranoid person that nobody's out to get 'em?

Amusing, isn't it?

I'm still wondering why no-one has given a credible explanation for why they busted their minimums yet.

because all they want to talk about is how evil russians are. A bit behind the times, I'd say...

I feel sorry for them - they're going to spend an eternity hunting for something that just isn't there.

But the Russians who said this thought it was important because it would make him look like he was drunk. They were disengenuous since most human corpses biologically generate alcohol within 24 hours of death. This autopsy showing alcohol in the body was done AFTER 24 hours of death. They should have noted the 24 hour plus / body decomposition alcohol relationship.


You would have never known that coming from the Russian news reports. They made it sound like it was 100% the fault of the Poles and that the Russians could do no wrong.


Monia, evidently they don't do things like that over there for some reason.

Instead some of them were too busy stealing credit cards and other valuables from the dead Poles. And these were suppose to be their "security" people. That would never have made the light of day if it weren't for other Poles noticing it. It makes you wonder what else they were up to over there on the ground. Why did they change the landing lights right after the crash, etc?

Maybe that's just the way they do things there.


Yes in the end it was the mistake of the pilot to trust the assurance of the airtower that he was landing OK.

The pilot most likely thought another human being would not give him instructions that would lead to his death and the deaths of almost a hundred other people, so that's why he trusted the air tower guy. He was wrong to do that.

Delph, you know I told you why for the last time already, right? ;) In the unlikely event that you have forgotten, look back in the thread.

I simply refuse to believe that a pilot worth his salt would intentionally go too low over an afforested area. It's tantamount to suicide and jeopardised too many lives.

Agreed.


News reports vs. official report. One more reason to ignore the news...


That's piloting 101. You trust your instruments, not some junk radar installation and advisory information from a controller that can barely speak English.


Again, pushing the gas when the traffic light turns orange. I see drivers do it every day, hell, I've done it. Does that mean that I'm suicidal?

Yes. Sign up to the nearest psychiatrist!

Just kidding you have a good point :)

Yes I think so . Normal person doesn`t do it , especially with passangers like president and top army official on board . You can do it, when you are alone , you just tell to yourself " I am taking the risk to have an accident , but what the heck it is just me , who cares , if I don`t .

Half of Poland isn't normal in that case :)

Now, say you have the President on board, and he's late for a meeting. You have an added pressure to make it in time. Someone else arrived on time and you have blasted through yellow lights before and were praised for being a great driver and getting the VIPs there on time. You are the best of the best after all, it's just a yellow light...

No , they don`t do it, when someone`s life is at stake , btw did you make any surwey about suisidal driving ? Your theory would mean that all Polish drivers are suisidal just by driving cars on polish roads .

Actually, that's a good point...Those families are accepting risk when they decide to drive on the connecting roads, or in snow, or in the rain... But seriously, how many times do you see crazy passing with a car full of kids, or someone blasting through a yellow light? Maybe it's just a Wroclaw thing...

Generally speaking, you're better reading the official reports than the media.


Again - you show a total inability to understand the concept of "minimums". You know, you need to learn about aviation before you can comment on it.


Then Seanus, you need to explain to me one thing. The 100m thing is actually a red herring - because for the approach flown (2xNDB) - he was required to have 1800m of visibility. Can you explain why he even attempted to land when he clearly didn't have 1800m of visibility?

Incidentally,


Not just a Wroclaw thing. I've seen guys drive like absolute maniacs with kids in the car - one idiot spent about 5km driving about 10m from my car, getting more and more angry because I wouldn't speed up - and he had two small kids in the car. What were their chances of surviving a sudden impact at 90km/h? He had no time to brake if I did.

Convex, one thing I don't understand - how come the captain was only qualified to fly ILS Cat. I approaches and not II or III?

Do you actually live in Poland?? I keep seeing fathers driving with their whole families in the car speeding, oivertaking dangerously, jumping red light and taking all the risk there is. I also see mothers running to the tram on the red light - with their children. People take risk every day, because they think their goal somehow makes it okay. Or that they will be lucky today. Or they simply have no imagination.

The pilots made a mistake, they went too low - they were not supposed to believe anyone else, they were supposed to look at the right instruments in the cabin. They failed to do that. They thought they were higher - due to their own mistake. And anyway, they were not supposed to go that low, they just didn't have the papers for that! If they didn't break the law, they wouldn't have been so low -> they wouldn't have crashed. Apparently, such law breaking was common in our airforce... And that's really scary.

Convex is explaining it all in very simple words - I wonder why people still don't seem to understand?

The report doesn't specifically say that, it just has the minimums for a couple of different approaches. VOR approach isn't listed either. I think they just listed the approaches relevant to the accident.

Delph, I think you'll agree it's messy. I heard that there was a mix-up in communication between the Yak pilot and themselves. Now, according to the reproduction I saw, the pilots confirmed that knowledge of the Yak pilot and there didn't appear to be any ambiguity. Yet again, conflicting accounts. It really miffs me how because the recordings are there, FACTUAL. Let's face another fact, though, the official visibility recordings were not exactly presented on time and details were sparse. How they could both cock things up to that extent is beyond me, it really is.

From the transcripts:

D: Polish Air Force 1-0-1, for information at 06:11 Smolensk visibility 400 meters fog.

What information are you looking for?

The series "Air Crash Investigations" covers the Crossair accident
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossair_Flight_3597

Lots of similarities. Have a watch as a 17000hour pilot busts minimums at his home airport.

It is same that you and those who say it was pilot's fault have not given a credible explanation for why they busted the minimum yet.

Questions unanswered are not only this. Also, why computer power went off before landing.

Anyway, Russians (whether it was accident or not) are always one step ahead of this story as they were ones who investigated everythings first. They won't take blame more than 50% even if it is accident and even if their fault is 90%. For that, they can change or hide some critical data so that Russians won't be blamed for the accident. Russians are always one step ahead in this story and they can easily manipulate all other datas, to generate further chaos.