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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


FlaglessPole 4 | 669
3 Aug 2011 #301
Anyway, this Smolensk story will be similar to Twin Tower story in that many reports showed that without bombs under the towers, those twin towers and wt7 wouldn't collapse.

There's indeed an amazing similarity but wait it gets better…. That Tupolev was an exact replica of Twin Towers I mean both start with ‘T’ …and the twin engines – this is not a coincidence! This is a Templar conspiracy, written in oil!
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Aug 2011 #302
The YAK guys had greater visibility and a lighter aircraft.

But again, they broke the rules. Did they have a deathwish as well?
peterweg 36 | 2,316
3 Aug 2011 #303
Plenty of examples in history.

Controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) is the most common cause of air disaster I believe.

secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Controlled_flight_into_terrain
Monia
3 Aug 2011 #304
So, without touching the ground, some technical problems happened in the airplane and this wasn't mentioned in official reports. And, this is informed by military prosecutors, in another kind of report.

That`s correct , before touching the ground , 3 electrical systems collapsed .
pgtx 29 | 3,159
3 Aug 2011 #305
conspiracy

i wonder how come Antek Macierewicz knows what really had happened. maybe he planned that. :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Aug 2011 #306
I'm beginning to wonder. They were perilously close to that.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Aug 2011 #307
That`s correct , before touching the ground , 3 electrical systems collapsed .

Do you have a link to those comments?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Aug 2011 #308
Why did he flirt with the trees, delph? Does that suggest experience to you?

To me, it suggests a desire to get that plane down and "be a hero". Bear in mind that if the plane didn't land in Smolensk, it would've been a disaster for the President, especially after Tusk got the headlines a few days before.

Didn't Putin blame the visit of Kacyznski to Katryn? and didn't he warn Katcynski?

No. The report makes it clear - the Russians asked if they could have two separate ceremonies for logistical reasons (protecting both the Prime Minister and President at the same time - difficult).
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Aug 2011 #309
Well, f*ck their planning then. What a bunch of morons! Why couldn't they have left the day before?
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Aug 2011 #310
I'd argue that was the first factor that ultimately caused the crash. No backup plan. Personally, if I have a meeting somewhere and want to fly there, the first thing I do is buy a commercial ticket. That's my get out of jail free card should there be a problem with weather or a mechanical issue. No pressure.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Aug 2011 #311
Well, f*ck their planning then. What a bunch of morons! Why couldn't they have left the day before?

Ask the BOR that question.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Aug 2011 #312
Convex, spot on!!

Delph, I'd like to but...
Monia
3 Aug 2011 #313
a minor European country.

Oh yes , Russia is major ;)
NomadatNet 1 | 457
3 Aug 2011 #314
There's indeed an amazing similarity but wait it gets better…. That Tupolev was an exact replica of Twin Towers I mean both start with ‘T’ …and the twin engines – this is not a coincidence! This is a Templar conspiracy, written in oil!

I totally agree with you..
And, air plane. Ones hitting the buildings and one hitting the ground.
Bush said suicide attack. Putin said accident.. .

No. The report makes it clear - the Russians asked if they could have two separate ceremonies for logistical reasons (protecting both the Prime Minister and President at the same time - difficult).

Reason: protecting Prime Minister and President at the same time would be difficult? And, this is logistical reason for two seperate ceremonies? Russia wasn't enough big company that could accept them both at the same time? PM could be just another among 96 people.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Aug 2011 #315
Reason: protecting Prime Minister and President at the same time would be difficult? And, this is logistical reason for two seperate ceremonies? Russia wasn't enough big company that could accept them both at the same time? PM could be just another among 96 people.

Yea, I don't buy that either. They both managed to show up in Brussels at the same time...
MediaWatch 10 | 945
4 Aug 2011 #316
To me, it suggests a desire to get that plane down and "be a hero".

Well Delph if somebody with a virulent anti-Polish agenda like yourself suggests that, then we know the opposite is true.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 Aug 2011 #317
So, instead of sticking to facts, you chose to yet again make ridiculous statements. I know the stuff on this thread is too difficult for you to understand - so zip it, eh?

But let's just go into some more details.

The guy was attempting an approach in some very difficult conditions. If he couldn't land the plane, with the forecast getting worse - they would almost certainly have to go to Vnukovo in Moscow, or head back to Warsaw. Either of these would be a PR disaster for the President - he was relying on a good speech at Katyn to improve his ratings, and either turning up massively late or not at all would be a nightmare.

So, the commander of the Air Force is in there, helping out - so he's breathing down his neck, too. He doesn't have to say anything - the commander already knows that if he doesn't at least try, his career could be over. He also knows that if he makes a landing in exceptionally difficult (and well below minimums) conditions, he'll have a chance at being rewarded (we can see that the Air Force doesn't particularly care about safety - the report makes that clear). So - he attempted the approach.

How many times do humans do risky things like this? All the time.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
4 Aug 2011 #318
my thoughts. from what i understand of the various threads we have on the subject.

1. incorrect flight planning
2. bad weather
3. lack of spacial awareness
4. stress/pressure from senior figures
5. misunderstanding of flight instruments
6. false belief that, if the aircraft in front could land then so could the captain of the TU
7. crew who couldn't work together properly
8. lack of 100% support from the tower. or at least what the pilot might have expected from the tower.
9. choosing to land at an inferior airport. given the importance of the passengers and how the weather changed, or could change, the dynamics
10. not realizing that, if it took an extra person to read the instruments then they really should have just got away from the place

the fact that someone was helping in the cockpit shows how bad things were with regard to experience and command structure.

would the captain have tried to land, if he had an empty aircraft ?
we will never know, but i'm willing to guess that the answer would be 'no'
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
4 Aug 2011 #319
Very good summary. I wish I could say the damn Russians did it, but based on what I've seen so far both the pilots and the ATC made mistakes. The pilot in command makes big bucks for a reason, he or she is the final authority. Aviation is a safe mode of transportation BUT accidents happen all the time. Almost a year ago we burried a good friend of mine who left his wife and two toddlers behind. The final report isn't out yet but in all likelihood it'll be coded as "pilot error". The guy was a great stick, I've flown with him myself, sharp, professional, careful. Yet apparently he had a bad day when he took his own bird for a spin, got too low, clipped some power lines, got inverted and then slammed it into the ground. It took the ground crew several days to recover all of his remains, or what was left of it.

"If you are looking for perfect safety, you will do well to sit on a fence and watch the birds; but if you really wish to learn, you must mount a machine and become acquainted with its tricks by actual trial."

— Wilbur Wright, from an address to the Western Society of Engineers in Chicago, 18 September 1901.

WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
4 Aug 2011 #320
I am not going to make analysis regarding the plane as I am not an aviation expert, nor have I seen and analyzed the evidence left over from after the crash. What I can say is that there is a fundamental problems in being able to even put together a report.

Poland has [still] not received all evidence since the crash, despite us now being close to 16 months after the crash. Whey thet have got is what the Russians have given them and we do not know if what they have given them was tampered with or not.

The other thing concerning me is that this is supposed to be factual based. How factual it is I am not sure but the fact that the Russians seem to be making conclusions with no evidence to back it up is very concerning to say the least. How can they say general Blasik was putting on pressure with no evidence? All they can say is that he was in the cockpit, no more. Yet they said that 'obviously' his presence in the cockpit would put pressure on the situation. They have no right to do this.

This is why I am unsure of Russian intentions and am sceptical about trusting them.
Monia
4 Aug 2011 #321
how bad things were with regard to experience and command structure.

Maybe after seeing how bad the weather was , and how the tower was communicting with a pilot , the lack of air pressure data from Meteo ( Polish and Russian ), how bad equipped the aerodrome was ?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Aug 2011 #322
So, why were they soooo far off to the left again? Why weren't they told about it?
Monia
4 Aug 2011 #323
How can they say general Blasik was putting on pressure with no evidence? All they can say is that he was in the cockpit, no more. Yet they said that 'obviously' his presence in the cockpit would put pressure on the situation. They have no right to do this.

This is why I am unsure of Russian intentions and am sceptical about trusting them.

And how come they said about him being drunk, very shocking for me . That`s why 70 % of Polish people don`t think we have got all the evidences . So we are waiting .I have heard that USA experts gathered more information, unknown for Polish side , because the were decoding one of black boxes, which was USA made and sent to them by Russians .
NomadatNet 1 | 457
4 Aug 2011 #324
Yea, I don't buy that either. They both managed to show up in Brussels at the same time...

For ceremony, it is illogical to host a big group, 96 people, and prime minister seperately. According to Delphandomine, Russia requested this.

Anyway. It seems that majority of people are saying it was accident. Then, from philosophical and theological point of view, it is a fate/destiny as well. But, usually, a person or two survive in accidents/fates. Claims about shooting in the video maybe true then if it was accident.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Aug 2011 #325
You may have a point, nomad. A plane recently crashed in Guyana and, to the best of my knowledge, everyone survived. The witness specifically heard gun shots right beside where the plane was. It is rather convenient that they were there. The more I see conflicting rubbish from the both sides, the more I believe that sb could have been there to make sure by killing them. The tape has been analysed closely so conclusions can be drawn.
NomadatNet 1 | 457
4 Aug 2011 #326
Of course, ours here now is comments only, but, such things will not be written in official reports which are voices to the public.

Indeed, it is very very small chance that nobody survived in that crash that can be called relatively soft-crash.

My guess about the video taken at the crash site is it is fake, taken by someones who were there already. They probably just didn't clean it enough. Btw, there is an old man in it, with a bag in his hand. When did crash happen? April 10. But, he wears a coat as if it is winter. (to carry a gun in his coat?)

Btw, is there any satellite data or independent met site that confirms there was fog there in that area on April 10? Only Minsk, but, not enough, isnt it.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Aug 2011 #327
Smoleńsk is hardly the warmest place on Earth, even in April. There was thawing snow according to the reports. There were some reports but they may have been falsified. Conspiracy theorists are pushing this idea, artificial fog. Spraying from a remote location would create enough fog to blind the pilots but that's just a theory.
convex 20 | 3,978
4 Aug 2011 #328
Maybe after seeing how bad the weather was , and how the tower was communicting with a pilot , the lack of air pressure data from Meteo ( Polish and Russian ), how bad equipped the aerodrome was ?

Weather and pressure was given, page 212.

So, why were they soooo far off to the left again? Why weren't they told about it?

Have a read through the report, the Yak and the Il had the same problem.

And how come they said about him being drunk, very shocking for me . That`s why 70 % of Polish people don`t think we have got all the evidences . So we are waiting .I have heard that USA experts gathered more information, unknown for Polish side , because the were decoding one of black boxes, which was USA made and sent to them by Russians .

They said that he had alcohol in his body. I thought it wasn't important.

How can they say general Blasik was putting on pressure with no evidence? All they can say is that he was in the cockpit, no more. Yet they said that 'obviously' his presence in the cockpit would put pressure on the situation. They have no right to do this.

Sure they do, he had absolutely no reason at all to be there. None. The simple presence of a superior standing behind you is pressure whether you believe it or not. That's why you don't see CEOs of airlines riding in jump seats. It's ridiculous, and completely unprofessional. Basic psychology.

The witness specifically heard gun shots right beside where the plane was.

Right... But uh, if they were executing survivors, wouldn't the Russians have made sure that video never saw the day of light after such an elaborate plot? Doctoring the CVR and FDR, falsifying the controller recordings, autopsy results...and shooting the survivors... and then they let some guy with a camera phone wander off?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Aug 2011 #329
Weather was NOT given properly and timeously, convex. Read the report again.

Wow, so 2 other planes did the same and STILL the ATC sat on their arses drinking vodka. Do you know that one of the guys wasn't tested for alcohol on that day? They MUST be, it's protocol.

Blasik also thought they were at a different altitude and that's the main thing. 100m my butt, they were well below.

The Russians allegedly wanted to kill the maker of that video, convex. There is an account online somewhere of people interviewing him and him being petrified that he'd be caught. There was even a scare story that they caught up with him in Kiev, Ukraine, and killed him.

He escaped, it's a fact!
convex 20 | 3,978
4 Aug 2011 #330
Weather was NOT given properly and timeously, convex. Read the report again.

Again, page 212.

Wow, so 2 other planes did the same and STILL the ATC sat on their arses drinking vodka. Do you know that one of the guys wasn't tested for alcohol on that day? They MUST be, it's protocol.

They saw the runway before it became an issue.

Blasik also thought they were at a different altitude and that's the main thing. 100m my butt, they were well below.

Then they screwed up, again, page 212. No excuses. Had pressure, following height instead of altitude.

The Russians allegedly wanted to kill the maker of that video, convex. There is an account online somewhere of people interviewing him and him being petrified that he'd be caught. There was even a scare story that they caught up with him in Kiev, Ukraine, and killed him.

Link? And please not that Chechen separatist site again...


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