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Achievements of the Tusk's Polish government


pawian 178 | 15,909
15 May 2011 #121
But you see, you need to divide your "pospolite ruszenie" into squads, platoons and companies etc.

Come on, we live in 21st century. Have you ever heard of an invention called the computer? :):):)

If they are to, even remotely, resemble a coherent armed force you need
to:
1) train them BEFORE the conflict
2) arm them with something more than rocks and molotovs.

1) There will be enough time for that when the conflict begins. Come on, Russians won`t be able to drop 1 million combat soldiers onto Poland within a single night.
gumishu 11 | 5,692
15 May 2011 #122
Most of the population won't even react to our country being attacked in the first 2-3 days - on the first two days they will be in doubt if we have really been attacked

Come on, we live in 21st century. Have you ever heard of an invention called the computer? :):):)

hahah - so we will be fighting russian tank columns with hacking attacks (hope the Russian tank servers are linux then :P)
OP Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
15 May 2011 #123
Will you ever odczepić się? :):):)

Am I forcing you to participate in this discussion ?

I appreciate the effort you made to write this long post and I can even forgive you the personal attacks from the previous one, however I was asking for facts. Let's take a look at your list.

Points 3-5 are irrevelant, you could as well write about Tusk's successes in playing football.

Point 6. The foreign policy of Tusk is the one of smiles and shake hands, which itself isn't generating any value added for the citizens of Poland. What did we get out of it ? Do we pay now fair price for Russian gas or much more than Germans ? Smiles and shake hands could be good for the first year to prepare the ground for the real deals. Can you point out any of them ?

Point 7. "Under Tusk rule, Poland is making a good use of European funds". In quantitive terms we spend a lot but often just to spend it without much thinking about the quality of these projects, so we have for example some EU funded trainings for jobless people, which are pretty much useless in the reality of the labor market. It's been like that under previous governments, no matter If SLD or PiS were the main political parties in the Parliament. Tusk didn't screw this one up but he hasn't improved It either.

8. In result, Poland abounds with new developments.

9 In result of the above, the preparations to EURO 2010 Championships are in full swing and won`t be delayed.

I tend to listen to experts and they, such as people from ZDG TOR, a respected think-tank focused on transport, are saying this: railways = disaster, roads = at best average. Comparing that with my own observations, I think It's fair opinion. If you don't agree with that, please provide supporting facts.

10. No more compulsory military service The army is professional now.

I used to serve in the army and am quite familar with this issue. The army is not professional. We don't have draft anymore but itself It didn't make the army professional. It is undertrained, ill-equipped and organized. The main difference is that more money is now being spend on salaries, less on training and equipment. Furthermore, no structural changes were made (and there are no even plans for that), so with 100k soldiers we have a command structure like for 250k soldiers. In result the ratio of privates to officers is ~1.6 to 1 when a helthy one would be 5 to 1. Moreover, the process of "professionalization" was done the way that they had stopped the draft long before the large scale recruitment of "professional" soldiers was started. For over a year most of combat units were not able to perform any tasks, they simply had no people. This one actually perfectly shows the philosophy of PO, they scored some points among the youngest voters and It's all that matters. Read what Petelicki, Skrzypczak, Hypki and all independent experts are talking about the situation in the army, they all agree that Klich is the worst person in charge of MOD in the history of the 3rd RP.

Now the most important:

2. In result, Poland has good ratings and enjoys the trust of foreign investors.

Not at all. Facts say something much different. Poland is heavily criticized by EU for huge deficit and lack of reforms. The ratings are under huge pressure. Read this one, you can find tonnes of similar stuff, It's not PiS conspiracy.

1. The steady economic growth throughout the crisis - the (in)famous so called green island:

What the government actually did to point it out as its success ? Please provide the facts. It seems to be a government success as much as nice weather during summer would be. Please provide supporting facts If you don't agree with that.

All in all, I appreciate the effort you made, however most of the points are PR slogans spread by the government, not the facts I was expecting. If I went to my CEO asking for 20% salary increase saying things like: 1. I improved the quality of our products 2. I reduced our operating costs 3... without providing supporting facts like: 1. I revised our quality control policy changing a)... b)... c)... which resulted in 30% decrease of quality related complaints from our clients. 2. I implemented new training procedures for new workers, which let reduce the period of training from 5 to 3 weeks without loses in quality and that let us save x million annually. 3.... etc. he would be rolling on the floor laughing.
pawian 178 | 15,909
15 May 2011 #124
With all due respect, Pawian, but I don't think you will be able to work on 500,000 "etats" :):):)

That`s exaggeration. Judging on my school`s example, there are about 10-15% lousy teachers who should look for another job, preferrably out of school. There are about 15% brilliant ones for whom teaching is true calling. The rest 70% are just good and only need a little incentive to be even better.

Points 3-5 are irrevelant, you could as well write about Tusk's successes in playing football.

How did I know your answer would look like that? :):)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 May 2011 #125
Karta Nauczyciela

Get rid of it.

I've heard countless examples in Poznan alone where terrible teachers still have a job despite being totally incompetent.
OP Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
15 May 2011 #126
Torq is most definitely a voter of neither PO and PiS. Gumishu as well - both are real right wingers, not faux conservatives like PiS and PO.

Do they both agree with that list ?

if it was as simple as you suggest, so many European countries wouldn`t be experiencing such enormous economic problems now.

Hmm I'm not sure If I understand your reasoning... Let me put it this way, would Sweden be in a better economic situation If the corruption level was there like in Poland ? Or would Poland be in a better economic situation If the corruption level was here like in Sweden ?

Show me the country where the public sector is effective and inexpensive.

Public sector can be more or less effective (If you really don't understand that, please stop wasting our time). In Poland It is much more effective than average in Africa but much less effective than average in EU and I see no significant steps to change that.
pawian 178 | 15,909
15 May 2011 #127
Hmm I'm not sure If I understand your reasoning...

You probably need some rest.

OK, guys, time for relax. Get off your comps for a while and do some exercises.

And doing so, take a look at the beauty of Szczawnica:

d

After a relaxing break, let`s go on.

however I was asking for facts. Let's take a look at your list.

I provided you facts based on my personal observances. I believe what I wrote is true, just like many Poles do. If you can`t accept it as factual, it is your problem.

Points 3-5 are irrevelant, you could as well write about Tusk's successes in playing football.

Pathetic rhetorics. In that way no government will be ever able to gain positive reviews, nowhere in the world. Please, ease up on them your so strict requirements! :):):)

Point 6. The foreign policy of Tusk is the one of smiles and shake hands, which itself isn't generating any value added for the citizens of Poland. What did we get out of it ?

Hey, why do you want to count everything into money? Don`t be such a Jew! :):):)

We gained better atmosphere which helps to create favourable conditions for cooperation and investment. Is it so difficult to understand? You are really surprising me now.

"Under Tusk rule, Poland is making a good use of European funds". In quantitive terms we spend a lot but often just to spend it without much thinking about the quality of these projects,

Catching at a straw? :):) Are all projects of bad quality? Facts, please!! :):):):)

I tend to listen to experts and they, such as people from ZDG TOR, a respected think-tank focused on transport, are saying this: railways = disaster, roads = at best average.

Again, catching at a straw. I thought you expected posters to write about 5-10 achievements, not failures. Why are you going back on your words now? :):):) You may write about disastrous railway system after you start a thread called Failures.

The army is not professional. We don't have draft anymore but itself It didn't make the army professional.

Of course, not yet. What do you expect? Overnight miraculous change? But the first step was taken.

2.In result, Poland has good ratings and enjoys the trust of foreign investors.

Not at all. Facts say something much different. Poland is heavily criticized by EU for huge deficit and lack of reforms. The ratings are under huge pressure. Read this one, you can find tonnes of similar stuff, It's not PiS conspiracy.

Hey, can you read Polish at all? If you can, do you understand what you read in Polish? Did you read that article you provided? Could you read it again, with greater understanding? Then you should find out there is nothing about EU, heavily,are under huge pressure, lack of reforms, or huge deficit.

You press me for facts while what are you doing at the same time? Providing bullshit! :):):):) That is not fair!

What the government actually did to point it out as its success ? Please provide the facts. It seems to be a government success as much as nice weather during summer would be. Please provide supporting facts If you don't agree with that.

Catching at a straw again. It doesn`t matter - Poland has been doing well in the crisis and it happened under Tusk government. That is enough for me and millions of PO intelligent voters. If PIS ruled at the time, (God forbid), I would be able to agree that their government did a good job. :):):)

But for you to agree is out of question. :):):)

All in all, I appreciate the effort you made, however most of the points are PR slogans spread by the government, not the facts I was expecting.

I disagree, of course, and it will stay so, I am afraid. Why? Read below:

Interesting read pawian. The problem is you won't change anyone's mind. And to have a sensible conversation with somebody who's a tenacious pis voter is a no can do.

Exactly. I am perfectly aware of it.

But I don`t do it for Grzegorz or gumishu. I know I won`t be able to influence them into acknowledging Tusk`s successes. Look, I listed 10 successes and each was rejected. :):):):) Not even one item was commented positively. Funny, isn`t it?

It means Tusk bashers are too hardened to accept the truth. Incorrigibles! :):):)

What I am doing here is for other normal people so that they are able to form their own opinion, by reading mine or Grzegorz`s and others` posts. The side they choose doesn`t concern me so much. I have done my duty and you will judge and decide.

I wonder where are the roots of this hatred Poles tend to guide towards each other.

There is no hatred on my or other PO supporters`s side. That is only a deep division. PiS is mainly supported by uneducated men from the country and towns who are frustrated by their failures in the market economy and expect PiS to provide them with good jobs, cheap flats, low prices, high salaries and pensions etc.

PO voters are educated, intelligent, dynamic, active in their private life and careers.

You will agree that it is quite difficult for these two groups to get together, won`t you?

Leftovers

I used to serve in the army and am quite familar with this issue.

Hmm, really? I can see some contradictory statements in your post about the army.

Furthermore, no structural changes were made (and there are no even plans for that),

It is not true. It was planned to make 4000 officers redundant till 2012.

Read what Petelicki, Skrzypczak, Hypki and all independent experts are talking about the situation in the army, they all agree that Klich is the worst person in charge of MOD in the history of the 3rd RP.

The problem is that generals and Klich ran into a conflict over those dismissals! Skrzypczak and other officers want to keep the status quo, namely this:

In result the ratio of privates to officers is ~1.6 to 1 when a helthy one would be 5 to 1.

delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 May 2011 #128
There is no hatred on my or other PO supporters`s side. That is only a deep division. PiS is mainly supported by uneducated men from the country and towns who are frustrated by their failures in the market economy and expect PiS to provide them with good jobs, cheap flats, low prices, high salaries and pensions etc.

PiS essentially want a return to the Communist system with the benefits of being a Party member.

Like I've always said, Solidarity didn't want freedom, they wanted what the Party guys had.
THE HITMAN - | 236
15 May 2011 #129
I provided you facts based on my personal observances. I believe what I wrote is true, just like many Poles do.

And many Poles don,t.

If you can`t accept it as factual, it is your problem.

Do you believe everything you read ? This is a serious question I am putting to you as a teacher.
If you have a point to make, then it,s up to you to prove it. So it,s your problem.

Teacher ? ......

Explanation is simple - it is a miracle by Tusk. Any problem with that?

WTF do you teach ?
Better still. Who do you teach ?
z_darius 14 | 3,968
15 May 2011 #130
That is only a deep division. PiS is mainly supported by uneducated men from the country and towns who are frustrated by their failures in the market economy and expect PiS to provide them with good jobs, cheap flats, low prices, high salaries and pensions etc.

Market economy?
There is no free market economy anywhere in EU, including Poland.
I'm not sure there is market economy anywhere in the world, or even if there has ever been one.
OP Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
15 May 2011 #131
We gained better atmosphere which helps to create favourable conditions for cooperation and investment. Is it so difficult to understand? You are really surprising me now.

I see not even one good deal Poland got thanks to Tusk's smile. Please provide the list of them If you don't agree with that.

Are all projects of bad quality?

Of course not, where did I say that ? Some are of good quality, some aren't, just like under previous governments, so Tusk improved nothing, that's why I don't see how It is is his achievement. Because he kept status quo ?

Hey, can you read Polish at all? If you can, do you understand what you read in Polish? Did you read that article you provided? Could you read it again, with greater understanding? Then you should find out there is nothing about EU, heavily, are under huge pressure, lack of reforms, or huge deficit.

If I provide you with a dozen of links from respected sources proving what I said, will you agree with me or call me a PiS fanatic, Rydzyk supported, homophobe and anti-Semite ?

PO voters are educated, intelligent, dynamic, active in their private life and careers.

Especially pawian the teacher and his marvelous "career" :)))

Hmm, really? I can see some contradictory statements in your post about the army.

Yes, really. Please point them out.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 May 2011 #132
I see not even one good deal Poland got thanks to Tusk's smile. Please provide the list of them If you don't agree with that.

Open your eyes, then.

Tusk is seen as a beacon of stability in Eastern Europe by business.

Especially pawian the teacher and his marvelous "career" :)))

It's certainly a far better career than sitting at home and complaining, like most PiS voters.
THE HITMAN - | 236
15 May 2011 #133
Delph ......... you,re beginning to sound like a broken record.
Do us all a favour and PiSappear.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 May 2011 #134
They had to, delph, they were tired of guarding the cross ;)
GrzegorzK
15 May 2011 #135
Tusk is a failure for Poland . He's too nice to Russia and the EU. He is too weak. Poland needs strong leaders like Walesa and Kaczinski.
pawian 178 | 15,909
15 May 2011 #136
and by the way - I am a voter of PiS - even if not an enthusiastic one -

I respect that. PiS voters can be also good patriots of this country. We all want this country to prosper, that`s what matters. Let the better win!

your point 9 pawian - preparations to euro 2012 - I wouldn't be surprised if accomodation and transfer of all those coming to see the championships is gonna end up a one big mess

Gumishu, I am not worried about that. The accomodation needs are overestimated. Besides, travelling around Poland, I saw many old buildings renovated and turned into hostels as well as new hotels built. Sometimes when I drive in Krakow I am amazed at the number of new/old constructions.

and trumpeting around those extraordinary succesess of the current regime,

Come on. The regime ruled when PiS held power. Did you already forget those witch hunts?

pawian:
When you mention examples of corruption scandals during PO rule, don`t forget to mention all previous ones for a fair comparison, OK?

what previous ones? dorsz for 8 złoty or Włoszczowa platform? do you know of any other?

Hey, already forgot how PiS tried to corrupt Renata Begier, by proposing financial gratification from the state money? :):):)

azraelk.eu/2006/09/26/dowody-korupcji-pis-wobec-renaty-beger

Short sighted idea, pawian. Your motherland has no use for dead soldiers. The problem with dead soldiers is that they can't fight anymore. Furthermore, it lowers the moral in the ranks AND in the country itself. Stay alive ... much more useful!

OK, you convinced me. I will stay alive to participate in the underground resistance after Poland loses the war and is occupied. I will run secret teaching courses until Germans track me down and put up against the wall or Russians send me to Gulag gold mine where I will perish anyway.

it fits another thread better (down-dumbing of Polish education) but I let's have a go at this: unemployment among the youth - 22 per cent of all unemployed are below 24 (51 per cent are below 34) - this country desperately needs education that equips young people better for the challenges of real life (which is not achieved by lowering of educational standards)

It is not education that plays a role here but the lack of positions. When the economy needs workers, their education is a secondary problem. All are hired. Currently, Polish economy can`t absorb all, because we are not Germany yet. And it is not Tusk`s fault.

most of the population won't even react to our country being attacked in the first 2-3 days - on the first two days they will be in doubt if we have really been attacked

Why do you hold Poles in such a low esteem? Come on, frustration also must have some limits.

hahah - so we will be fighting russian tank columns with hacking attacks (hope the Russian tank servers are linux then :P)

What do you know about urban warfare? Did you study the case of Russian armoured column massacred in Grozny by Chechen fighters?

The Chechen fighters had an advantage in that they were better motivated and were familiar with the terrain. they were divided into combat groups consisting of 15 to 20 personnel, subdivided into three or four-man fire teams. A fire team consisted of an anti-tank gunner, usually armed with Russian-made RPG-7s or RPG-18s, as well as a machine gunner and a sniper; they would be supported by ammunition runners and assistant gunners. To destroy Russian armoured vehicles in Grozny, five or six hunter-killer fire teams deployed at ground level, in second and third stories, and in basements.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_%281994%E2%80%931995%29

What did we get out of it ?

"Don't ask what your country can do for you. Ask instead what you can do for your country" - John F. Kennedy.

Delph ......... you,re beginning to sound like a broken record.
Do us all a favour and PiSappear.

That is the problem with many PiS supporters. You dream of old bolshevik methods - no enemy, no problem. Gulag or firing squad are the best solutions for you.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 May 2011 #137
Tusk is a failure for Poland . He's too nice to Russia and the EU. He is too weak. Poland needs strong leaders like Walesa and Kaczinski.

Walesa, strong leader?

He was anything but. In fact, he was similar to Kaczynski in terms of meddling and not behaving as how a President should behave - although in all fairness, he didn't have a proper job description either.

Kaczynski, strong? I don't recall one 'strong' act from either of the brothers - except when it came to witchhunts.

Don't forget that Lech Kaczynski, despite all the rhetoric, signed Lisbon.

And many Poles don,t.

Thankfully, the majority do.

Personally, it's all moot - Tusk is going to walk the election and we can all have a good laugh as PiS are cast into the political wilderness. Kaczynski is doomed, and he knows it - PiS simply cannot survive another 3 years with him as leader if he loses yet again.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,938
15 May 2011 #138
Tusk is a failure for Poland . He's too nice to Russia and the EU.

Yeah...antagonizing the big neighbours worked so well in Polands past....he definitely should try that again!
Isolating Poland from Europe will bring so many advantages...
GrzegorzK
15 May 2011 #139
Well Tusk should atleast repeal NNPT and Euro rules of non nuclear building. Germany has nukes and i'm sure france and U.K. do, and so does Russia, and who knows if Belarus didn't get any from Russia... why doesn't Poland have right to defend herself and not rely on U.S. or international community for help. tusk should atleast do something about this instead of kissing all nations ass.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
15 May 2011 #140
He's too nice to Russia and the EU. He is too weak

Yeah he should try to be a cvnt for a change... wear ski boots at the next EU summit, waddle over to Merkel and kick her really hard in the shin.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,938
15 May 2011 #141
Germany has nukes

Nope, we haven't....

Euro rules of non nuclear building.

The WHAT??? Didn't Poland just decide to build a new nuclear plant???

why doesn't Poland have right to defend herself

If you need nukes for that then there isn't a Poland anymore to defend..

waddle over to Merkel and kick her really hard in the shin.

There is steel under her trousers....beware! :)
NomadatNet 1 | 457
15 May 2011 #142
Well Tusk should atleast repeal NNPT and Euro rules of non nuclear building. Germany has nukes and i'm sure france and U.K. do, and so does Russia

Among these, nuclear plant is a need for Poland (project), Germany and France.
But, for UK and Russia? No... They have petrolium and/or gas sources enough.
So, UK and Russia have nukes only for power, as weapons..
If there happens an anti-nuclear agreement, who should close nuclear plants first? Not France, not Germany, etc - but, either UK or Russia.

Advicing Tusk about this is meaningless under these conditions.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 May 2011 #143
Germany has nukes

Uh...

Since when? The nukes in Germany are controlled by the United States.
THE HITMAN - | 236
15 May 2011 #144
That is the problem with many PiS supporters.

I am not a PiS supporter, my argument is that I have not experienced any improvements under the current government, only a downturn.
The title of this thread " achievements ", of which no one can elaborate, other than the govs propaganda reports.

Kaczynski is doomed,

PiS simply cannot survive another 3 years

The one track record is playing again.
Forget PiS for a minute delph, and stop being pro PO paranoid, lets have a triple, quadruple coalition of any remaining parties for example. My issue here is, that the current gov is not doing the best for Poland, not PO v PiS.
frd 7 | 1,399
15 May 2011 #145
Kaczynski would declare war against Russia, that's what you call "strong politics", god forbid him from getting to reign over Poland.
GrzegorzK
15 May 2011 #146
Well why doesn't Tusk build a missle shield. He's a jerk off thats why. Russia is allowed to have missile shiled in thousands of nukes but Poland can't. It's stupid like all of you.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,938
15 May 2011 #147
The title of this thread " achievements ", of which no one can elaborate, other than the govs propaganda reports.

The economy is rolling...is it not?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Poland

The Economy of Poland is a high income economy[6] and is the sixth largest in the EU and one of the fastest growing economies in Central Europe, with a yearly growth rate of over 3.0% before the late-2000s recession.[7]
It is the only member country of the European Union to have avoided a decline in GDP, meaning that in 2009 Poland has created the most GDP growth in the EU.[8] As of December 2009 the Polish economy had not entered recession nor contracted. According to the Central Statistical Office of Poland,
In 2010 the Polish economic growth rate was 3.8 %, which was one of the best results in Europe.

Propaganda only???

That in itself is a huuuuge achievement in the current crisis...and everything else stems from that. If the economy sucks you can forget about everything else.

Well why doesn't Tusk build a missle shield. He's a jerk off thats why.

Why? Who is threatening Poland with missiles???

It seems your gripes with Tusk is military spending only....he on the other hand seems more concerned with the economy. We here in Germany would vote for him as Chancellor anytime...believe me.

We have the same priorities!
THE HITMAN - | 236
15 May 2011 #148
The economy is rolling...is it not?

Try living here and see for yourself. Anyone can make up a good story, I did it when I was a kid too.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
15 May 2011 #149
I am not a PiS supporter, my argument is that I have not experienced any improvements under the current government, only a downturn.

But how can you compare, when PiS were riding the wave of economic prosperity and PO have had to deal with the global crisis? It's like comparing apples and oranges.

In terms of stability, Tusk has done wonders - the country is now stable politically, something it wasn't for many, many years. We're actually looking like we'll see a Polish Prime Minister re-elected in a democratic election - the first time since...well, ever?

The title of this thread " achievements ", of which no one can elaborate, other than the govs propaganda reports.

PO's greatest achievement has been stability. People are investing - big time.

Forget PiS for a minute delph, and stop being pro PO paranoid, lets have a triple, quadruple coalition of any remaining parties for example. My issue here is, that the current gov is not doing the best for Poland, not PO v PiS.

What party would actually do "the best" for Poland?

Many people vote PO tactically simply because the alternatives are too scary to think about. Heck, look at me - I would only ever vote PO in order to keep PiS out, not because I like them. I haven't voted for them with any of my votes, and when confronted with a PO vs terrible mayor decision - I spoiled my vote on purpose. I'm certainly no PO apologist, but they're still the best option at a national level.

As for Tusk building a missile shield - where the hell is the money coming from? Poland tried the military-industrial method in the 20's and 30's and...it didn't work.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,938
15 May 2011 #150
Try living here and see for yourself.

Compare Poland with other european countries....not stable, no growing economy, begging for help, broke, ridiculed leaders!
I'm fairly sure they would be happy to have a Tusk instead of their own chaos.


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