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Alimony and child support - Polish wife seeking divorce

Terravis 1 | 6
10 Jan 2020 #1
My cousin's Polish wife has abducted their underage son from Singapore to Poland. Hague Convention is a joke for Poland with its record of refusing upwards of two thirds of applications! The woman surely knew what safe haven she was going to.

Now she is going to court in Poland (Cracow?) seeking divorce on grounds of marital discord for which she blames my cousin 100%, and complete removal of parental rights. Anyone heard that it takes two to tango? She told my cousin that it will be a piece of cake for her as family courts over there will always side with the mother. Rumor has it that she can not only do that but also score a sweet deal on the alimony and child support. Cousin has no problem with child support but sucks that a criminal has to be paid state supported alimony.

What are some estimates of alimony (1) and child support (2) for Cracow which I understand is a big city? This woman works at salon apparently so not making much dough. How long do these supports have to continue?

What a shame that this country is giving a royal middle finger to the rest of the world with that pathetic non-order record of theirs! I guess by refusing abducted children justice in their own habitual residence yet enforcing overseas maintenance with some remarkable zeal the gov makes sure all channels of foreign investment are maximized. C'mon they got to find ways to sustain the booming Polish economy after all!
cms neuf - | 1,987
10 Jan 2020 #2
The courts are separate from the government in Poland (at least for now!)

They do normally favor the woman but I don't think they would be so keen for complete removal of fathers rights. You need a lawyer to tell you more.

Cost of looking after a kid in a big city is probably 2500-3000 zloty a month

Other people know more about this subject so wait for someone more experienced to answer
Lenka 3 | 2,765
10 Jan 2020 #3
To get divorce with ruling it's the husband's fault she would have to present evidence- adultry, violence, heavy addiction... Only then we can talk alimony. Are you sure she threatened that? Alimenty in Polish means child support so maybe she meant that?

While courts are pro mother generally to get full custody and ruling the marriage broken up due to hom won't be easy without a proof.

Child support is paid till 18 or longer if the kid goes into higher education (25)
OP Terravis 1 | 6
11 Jan 2020 #4
I found out today that "alimenty" in the Family and Guardianship Code (Kodeks rodzinny i opiekuńczy, USTAWA z dnia 25 lutego 1964 r.) does mean maintenance obligation to the ex-spouse (whether she is a criminal or!).

Art. 60.
§ 1. Małżonek rozwiedziony, który nie został uznany za wyłącznie winnego rozkładu pożycia i który znajduje się w niedostatku, może żądać od drugiego

So it is guaranteed she will milk him for 5 years minimum...and likely more. Long live the at-fault divorce laws....grrrr!
Can anyone please prove me wrong? It's looking pretty bleak at the moment.
Atch 17 | 4,086
11 Jan 2020 #5
If the judge rules that the marriage broke up due to the fault of the husband, then yes, he is liable to pay support to the wife for herself as well as support to the child. In theory, the spousal support can continue for the rest of her life unless she remarries, in which case the support stops. Sorry for the gloomy news but that's the situation.

Long live the at-fault divorce laws....grrrr!

It is actually possible to divorce on the basis of it not being anybody's fault but obviously in this case the wife is not willing to go down that route. However, if she doesn't present a convincing case, then the judge can decide that there is no fault on either side and that the marriage has simply come to a natural end. Also, as bad as the courts are, and they're not great by any means, as another poster said, it's not that easy to have parental rights removed. Remember that judges are well accustomed to seeing angry, vindictive ex-wives so they're pretty experienced at determining whether the woman is just being spiteful or whether she has any real grounds for her demands.

Also if it's any comfort to you, where children are concerned, the line taken is that 'young' children need to live with their mother but as they grow older, boys need contact with their father.

What are some estimates of alimony (1) and child support (2) for Cracow which I understand is a big city?

The problem is that it's entirely at the discretion of the judge. There are no guidelines set by the court and they do not take into account the father's actual income and outgoings as they would in the UK for example. The judge sets a figure based on the father's earning potential. Also, if your cousin remarries, his wife's income/earning potential is up for grabs too!

Basically, you need a good solicitor. Sorry I can't recommend one :(

Sorry I should have said that the judge can decide that the fault is mutual rather than it being nobody's fault, but it's the same difference really. Basically you can divorce on the basis that neither one of you is the main person to blame.
Lenka 3 | 2,765
11 Jan 2020 #6
Sorry, i should have been clearer- alimenty can mean both payment for the ex and for the kids. What I meant is that maybe the women used the word alimony in similar way as in Polish and meant child support. I did that on here before I learnt the difference.

Again- for a divorce with full blame on your cousin she would have to have proof. Plus the attitude of courts towards childcare is changing as well. More and more couples go for shered care ( sadly impossible in your cousin case)

The judge sets a figure based on the father's earning potential

That is sadly due to 'daddies' that suddenly have big problems earning money after they are supposed to pay child support.
OP Terravis 1 | 6
13 Jan 2020 #7
it's not that easy to have parental rights removed.

But from a point of view of convenience - as in the mother not having to have the father's consent for decisions regarding the child - would that not be somewhat logical given that she will have sole custody? Other way to ask the question is - what are typically the rights of a foreign based father if the mother resident in Poland has sole custody? Do the courts allow visits visits to the father's place for longer term (say all of summer vacation every year and Christmas every other year) to make up for the lack of short term visitations? Singapore laws are pretty similar to the UK common law so not much help comparing to that. Cousin has been talks with a lawyer there but gets increasingly frustrated by the arbitrary nature of rulings there - no payment estimates for maintenance obligations, no effect given to precedence as regards foreign non-custodial parent's rights, no effect of the mother causing an abduction that is a criminal act in the place where the child was living etc. Maybe its due to the folks he's been talking to...who knows. The more I read about Polish family law decisions the more I wonder - why would not every woman want a divorce there??

As regards the statement, "but as they grow older, boys need contact with their father" - is this position taken specifically by Polish courts? When do they consider the boy needs a change of parenting plan? Further to the point, is that position applicable to fathers who are based overseas? Or does the overseas based part obliterate the father part from a protectionism angle and nothing really changes in the parenting arrangement even as the boy grows up? Nephew is 4 and a half now.

I spoke to my cousin today and he is quite prepared to formally end the relationship with the wife, but the son is a whole another matter...
OP Terravis 1 | 6
24 Jan 2020 #8
@cms neuf

So the lawyer told my cousin today that he might be able to get a custody order that allows him to take his to Singapore for summer holidays every year. However, she also cautioned that the judge may see the mother's opposition to that as valid and instead ask the father to visit the son in Poland and let him have the son with full custody for the time he will be able to be in Poland (leave from work, other commitments etc.).

Doesn't this sound far too wide for a reasonable range of outcomes? I mean can sole custody to mother be shifted temporarily to the father like that??
cms neuf - | 1,987
24 Jan 2020 #9
No idea I'm afraid - I am not a lawyer, so your lawyers opinion is worth far more than mine.
Lenka 3 | 2,765
24 Jan 2020 #10
I wouldn't call it that wide. The only question here whether the court will trust him to take the kid back to Japan for holiday.

You have to remember that even if the mother will get the custody it doesn't mean the father's parental rights are removed- he still has the right to be involved in the kids life in resonable ways

But generally as cms said- it's better to believe the lawyer than people here.
OP Terravis 1 | 6
3 Feb 2020 #11

Thanks Lenka. The agonising part is that the lawyers seem to cast such a wide net that nothing can be anticipated, let alone expected. Why do you think taking the child out of Poland will be problem for the court? The same happens here in Singapore quite often. Unless the father has a criminal history, or in serious financial trouble - the courts view the time away with the other parent as a valuable balance in the child's life. Is it different in Poland?
pawian 187 | 17,898
6 Feb 2020 #12
Why do you think taking the child out of Poland will be problem for the court?

You have answered yourself in the first post.

Now they might fear the child will be abducted back to Singapore. Isn`t it clear?
OP Terravis 1 | 6
22 Feb 2020 #13

Do courts in Poland work on the basis of fear or evidence?

Second point - the child was at all taken back to his home jurisdiction and retained there - how will that become abduction? That makes it a homecoming. Abduction was what the mother did by unilaterally removing the child from the family home in Singapore. When the Policja recovers stolen goods from a thief - does Poland's constitution consider taking it away from him is stealing, or serving justice?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
22 Feb 2020 #14
It's quite normal in Europe for children to only be allowed to leave their country of residence if both parents agree.
OP Terravis 1 | 6
24 Feb 2020 #15

As the original post states quite clearly, the child was abducted to Poland without the father's consent. Is it so that the Polish court requires both parent's consent or a court decree in lieu, only if the child is removed from Poland, but have no problem if the child was brought to Poland on one parent's consent? The shambolic record that Poland has in returning abducted children from Poland is perhaps a sad reminder of how some countries can happily play dual standards and get away with it forever...

From a more practical standpoint - if the mother (who committed a crime by abducting the child out of Singapore) objects to let the father take the child to Singapore for holidays, does the court not ask for a reason?? Or just the criminal's wish is paramount simply because she is Polish? What message do the Polish courts send out to potential abductors in such an disgusting predisposition ??

PS - Please do not refer to European courts. Western European countries do not harbour criminals just because they are citizens of that country...INCADAT contains plenty of evidence in support of that. Polish courts are different.

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