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Perfective vs Imperfective - grammar



mafketis 16 | 4,731    
6 Dec 2016  #121

Please explain , I, cant see it

The inverted triangle is the broad shoulders and tapering waist of a he-man

The circle is a........

Or.... both are very stylized drawings of human plumbing.... for number one at least

Or.... to be less crude, men have sharp edges, women have curves....


dolnoslask 2 | 1,165    
6 Dec 2016  #122

broad shoulders and tapering waist of a he-man

I always saw it as an upsidedown dress and very similar to the standard female sign, hence plenty of confusion.

as for the O, I cant believe it could be that crude, or can it?
mafketis 16 | 4,731    
6 Dec 2016  #123

, I cant believe it could be that crude, or can it?

I'm sure the original thinking wasn't that crude, but... it does make a useful mnemonic device (not exactly mnemonic but that's close enough).

Will you ever forget or get confused now?
Ziemowit 8 | 2,593    
6 Dec 2016  #124

The circle is a........

as for the O, I cant believe it could be that crude, or can it?

Both are VERY sexist comments and should be punished with at least a warning on the PF. And I am serious with this.
mafketis 16 | 4,731    
6 Dec 2016  #125

Both are VERY sexist comments and should be punished with at least a warning on the PF

Kapuś, running to authority figures to punish ideas you don't like.

I didn't choose the circle, your beef is with the original designer.
dolnoslask 2 | 1,165    
6 Dec 2016  #126

Will you ever forget or get confused now?

No I won't, but it looks lke we are both in trouble with Ziemo.
mafketis 16 | 4,731    
6 Dec 2016  #127

looks lke we are both in trouble with Ziemo

Oh.... woe is me! How will I ever recover from that crushing blow??!!?!?

Perhaps a small formal dinner with guest of honor Queen Margarethe of Denmark?

A celebrity golf tournament (with the voice actors from Futurama)?

A fireworks display over Sieradz? Those poor people do deserve a break.

A royal hunt on the Mongolian steppes?

Decisions, decisions.....
Ziemowit 8 | 2,593    
6 Dec 2016  #128

Perhaps a small formal dinner with guest of honor Queen Margarethe of Denmark?

Sorry, but the only thing you deserve is a formal dinner with Vladimir Vladimirovitch Poutin in Moscow. If you don't like that, then a formal dinner with PF's Johnny Reb in Texas...

And your accomplice Niederschlesier should get a rebuke from Atch ...
mafketis 16 | 4,731    
6 Dec 2016  #129

formal dinner with PF's Johnny Reb in Texas...

You monster! There are Geneva conventions! Human Rights Laws!!!!!!
dolnoslask 2 | 1,165    
6 Dec 2016  #130

And your accomplice Niederschlesier should get a rebuke from Atch ...

I feel hurt that you would threaten me with such a severe sanction, the err was born out of good intent, we only wished to discover what the two majical Polish symbols of circle and upturned triangle meant .

Or is there a much deeper Masonic meanng that you do not wish us to discover?.

We appeal to a higher Authority to enlighten us as to he meaning and origin of aforesaid symbols and guide us back on topic as to whever these are perfect or Imperfect.
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
7 Dec 2016  #131

What has this all to do with perfective vs. imperfective???????!!!
cinek 2 | 328    
7 Dec 2016  #132

Then again myć just means 'to wash', while pomyć is to 'wash up'.

Można pomyć naczynia zdecydowanie - You can definitely pomyć the dishes

pomyć
umyć, oczyścić z brudu wiele rzeczy, osób lub zwierząt (to wash, clean from dirt many objects, people or animals)

To me and my friends word "pomyć" doesnt look proper.

Pomyję trochę naczyń, a potem obejrzę film. (I'll wash some dishes and then I'll watch a film.)

it's all quite amusing because without fail Poles never seem to agree on their language!

I think there may be some confusion about 'pomyć' because of the dual nature of the po- prefix in Polish.
If you won't mind, I may try to explain a little bit.

The 'po-' prefix can be used in two different contexts:
1. It may indicate that given action is done on many separate objects (is repetitive) e.g.:
On pozbierał zabawki - he gathered (many separate) toys
posprzątałem w domu - I cleaned up (all the places in) my house
powybijali nam szyby w oknach - they broke (all of) our windows

2. It may indicate that given action was (or will be) being done for some (usually short) time, then stopped (is temporary) e.g.
on postał tu przez chwilę, potem zniknął - he was standing here for some time, then disappeared
pośpiewajmy razem trochę - let's sing together for a while
pomieszkałem tam miesiąc i się wyprowadziłem - I lived there for a month, then moved away

In both meanings the po- prefix indicates perfective aspect of verb, but in 1. it makes the action repetitive, while in 2. it highlights its temporary character.

So the question is now, how to tell one from the other?
There may be a few signs which meaning is intended, but the most distinctive is that in 2. we usually also use some measure of time (chwilę, trochę, miesiąc in the examples above).

The other important thing to know is that meaning 1. better suits some verbs, while 2. better suits other verbs and for some verbs both uses of the prefix are ok.

Now, coming back to 'pomyć' (in the context of washing dishes), I think that while it may not sound well in meaning 1. (repetitive) it's quite ok in meaning 2. (short, temporary, unfinished action). On the other hand, for meaning 1. the word 'pozmywać' is much better.

So we may rephrase the sentence 'Pomyję trochę naczyń, a potem obejrzę film.' a little bit to make it more visible:

Pozmywam naczynia, a potem obejrzę film = I'll wash (all) the dishes, then I'll watch the movie
Pomyję trochę (chwilę) naczynia, a potem obejrzę film = I'll be washing the dishes for a while (no matter if I'll finish it), then I'll watch the movie

I hope it makes things a little more clear now.

Cinek
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
7 Dec 2016  #133

"Po-" can also mean "for a while", no?

" [Od chwili] POmieszkam we Warszawie, zanim przeprowadzam się do Białegostoku."

Thanks for getting us back on track, as well as for your detailed explanations! Always helpful:-)
Polonius3 1,019 | 12,555    
7 Dec 2016  #134

"łazienka"

Perhaps you have noticed that the translators of film subtitles from English to Polish translate "is there a bathroom around here?" as "czy jest tu jakaś łazienka?" when the asker is on a public street or in an office building or station and obviously does not want to have a bath. That Americanism is also creeping into Polish-made films and soap operas, where someone feeling the urge asks aboot a "łazienka". In Ameirca the euphemism has gone so far that kids will say: "Our puppy went to the bathroom on the living-room rug."
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
7 Dec 2016  #135

Clearly such sentences cannot be translated literally:-) Compare English too, "The dog WENT TO THE BATHROOM on the carpet." aka "Rover MADE ON the rug.", or some such circumlocution!
cinek 2 | 328    
7 Dec 2016  #136

"is there a bathroom around here?"

I was wondering why do Americans call their toilettes bathrooms until I landed there for the first time and in the airport I entered one that was bigger than the bathroom (real room with a bath) we had in our university dormitory :-)

Cinek
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
7 Dec 2016  #137

It's only our Puritanism coming to the surface, Cinku! America remains the king of euphamisms (with Nazi Germany not lagging much behind):-)
lol
Chemikiem 4 | 894    
8 Dec 2016  #138

but the most distinctive is that in 2. we usually also use some measure of time (chwilę, trochę, miesiąc in the examples above).

Pozmywam naczynia, a potem obejrzę film = I'll wash (all) the dishes, then I'll watch the movie

Pomyję trochę (chwilę) naczynia, a potem obejrzę film = I'll be washing the dishes for a while (no matter if I'll finish it), then I'll watch the movie

Thanks for that explanation Cinek, it made things a whole lot clearer for me. Please keep contributing! :-)

Compare English too, "The dog WENT TO THE BATHROOM on the carpet." aka "Rover MADE ON the rug.", or some such circumlocution!

No native English speaker would use those phrases I'm afraid.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,593    
8 Dec 2016  #139

"czy jest tu jakaś łazienka?"

I have started to pay attention. Several days ago I was at a conference in a Warsaw hotel and my natural way of asking about this was "przepraszam, gdzie tutaj jest toaleta?". I would rather not ask "gdzie tutaj jest łazienka?" (unless I wanted to take a bath ;-). In the "Świat według Kiepskich" series, the toilet which is in the coridor is always called "ubikacja".
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
8 Dec 2016  #140

They most certainly would, Chemikiem, and they most certainly do!!! I for one as a native English speaker have on many occasions.

I will admit however there is some slight point to what you say, being that Brits use our language quite differently in spots:-)
Atch 12 | 1,754    
8 Dec 2016  #141

I think that what Chemikiem probably means Lyzko is that many people would be more likely to say 'the dog pee-ed or wee-ed on the rug'. Or we might say 'the dog wet the floor' in Ireland. We certainly say that when a child does it. We also use the euphemism 'had an accident'. I remember once when I was teaching I approached a mother after school and said 'I'm afraid Alex had a little accident' 'Oh Jesus!' she responded. 'Where is he? Is he in the hospital?' Woops!
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
8 Dec 2016  #142

Granted, Atch!

We native speakers all express ourselves differently, as we've just seen right now:-)
G-d bless pluralism.
johnny reb 13 | 2,481    
8 Dec 2016  #143

Brits use our language quite differently in spots

Exactly and that is Harry's problem with his reading comprehension that makes everyone out to be a liar.
I tried to explain to him about "non-literal" English, that Americans use, but he wanted no part of understanding that.
mafketis 16 | 4,731    
8 Dec 2016  #144

'the dog pee-ed or wee-ed on the rug'. Or we might say 'the dog wet the floor' in Ireland.

I might say the "the dog went on the rug" (though that could also be number two). "The dog did his busines on the rug" (common in the American south) would surely be number two.
Chemikiem 4 | 894    
8 Dec 2016  #145

I for one as a native English speaker have on many occasions.

No offence intended Lyzko, but quite often you come out with expressions reminiscent of a bygone age that not many people would use these days. Not saying this is one of those instances, but I have never heard anyone English use an expression like that, although the meaning behind it is still clear.

what Chemikiem probably means Lyzko is that many people would be more likely to say 'the dog pee-ed or wee-ed on the rug'.

Exactly that Atch, Lyzko's phrase just sounds.......odd, at least to me.

We native speakers all express ourselves differently, as we've just seen right now:-)

We surely do :-)
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
8 Dec 2016  #146

"Pies zrobił się na dywanie." - perfective = (lit./dosłownie) "The dog MADE ON the carpet."
:-))
cinek 2 | 328    
9 Dec 2016  #147

We'd rather say "Pies narobił na dywan."

Cinek
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
9 Dec 2016  #148

I see! Should've realized that "dywan" would be accusative (motion towards), and "NArobić".
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,094    
10 Dec 2016  #149

"Pies zrobił się na dywanie." - perfective = (lit./dosłownie) "The dog MADE ON the carpet."

The dog materialised on the carpet. ;)
mafketis 16 | 4,731    
11 Dec 2016  #150

The dog manifested on the carpet, some fluid from the process remains....




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