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IS "MURZYN" word RACIST?


ShortHairThug - | 1,104    
4 Apr 2014  #391
It's design that way to stress the word and make it sound like it's said in anger. Annoying to say the least just like we say Jankes or Mexicans who say Gringo.
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #392
They are probably fighting a losing battle.

Indeed. Same as calling them 'Red Indians' which certainly offends.

The moral of the story is that we should choose the words we use carefully; to sound as positive as possible.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #393
Well, what is so positive about "czarnoskóry" and so negative about "Murzyn"?
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #394
What's positive about either?
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
4 Apr 2014  #395
Some of the posters here think it's acceptable - others think it is not.

it's only you and Harry who think that this word is unacceptable - and you are foreigners
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #396
You missed out the phrase "on here". In real life things are a bit different.

And half the Polish people on here don't live there and haven't for ages and the other half's habit of discussing their own country in a foreign language on the internet is not insignificant, young man.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #397
What's positive about either?

Well, one is now being labelled "racist" (Murzyn) and the other is being promoted as appropriate (czarnoskóry) by the forward-thinking brigade.
So obviously I'm curious why one would have been chosen over the other.
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #398
the other is being promoted as appropriate (czarnoskóry) by the forward-thinking brigade.

I'm not sure there's any 'brigade' promoting anything.

So obviously I'm curious why one would have been chosen over the other.

As I'm sure you know (c.f. Krashen and Chomsky) language largely chooses the direction it goes in itself. Beautifully chaotically.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #399
As I'm sure you know (c.f. Krashen and Chomsky) language largely chooses the direction it goes in itself.

Yes, I do know that. I also know that left to its own devices, the Polish language would NOT suddenly veer away from Murzyn, or start using words like "ministra"; there is a group of people out there with an agenda to introduce feminist-friendly, politically correct jargon into Polish; mostly young, educated graduates of women's studies, psychology, sociology, and other soft sciences whose heads have been totally turned by the pseudo-intellectual mumbo-jumbo produced by some in the fabled "West."

African is not a Murzyn. How to talk to not offend?

- Nearly one in five respondents said that the word "Murzyn" is abusive. Many of us, though aware of this fact, still uses this term - says Dominika Cieślikowska.

Wojciech Tymowski: One of the Nigerians detained during the recent riots in the bazaar, where a police bullet killed his compatriot, complained that the officer at the police station insulted him, saying to him "Murzyn." I tried to explain that he could not have bad intentions, because for most Poles, the term "Murzyn" is neutral.
Dominic Cieślikowska: It is not neutral. It has a pejorative connotation due to the social. It is said "white Murzyn", "Murzyn did what he had to do, Murzyn can leave." It is the determination of the laborer, slave, servant. Someone who has to be subordinated.

warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,34889,8000180,Afrykanin_to_nie_Murzyn__Jak_mowic__by_nie_obrazac.html

I asked you once already, but you didn't reply - I'm really curious what you think of campaigns such as this:
banbossy.com

People are interfering with the language big time, and for no apparent reason except their naive belief that if you change a word, or ban it, the associated problems will go away. This is magical thinking, pure and simple.

Even if Polish people finally begin to believe that Murzyn is racist and they should use whatever word instead, do you think there will be less racism overall in Poland? Paradoxically, once the neutral Murzyn is taken away, the void might actually be filled with more slurs like czarnuch or asfalt.
Wulkan - | 3,280    
4 Apr 2014  #400
The word "murzyn" is not racist and just because some foreigners living in Poland think otherwise it means they need to put some more effort into learning the local language
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #401
And very good too.

You can't turn back the tide of time, no matter how much you'd like to.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #402
I'm not turning back the tide of time, it's them pushing it "forward" - or rather sideways IMO ;-)
Less777 - | 50    
5 Apr 2014  #403
Even if Polish people finally begin to believe that Murzyn is racist and they should use whatever word instead, do you think there will be less racism overall in Poland?

This is all about revolution and control not about racism.
"Political Correctness is the use of culture as a sharp weapon to enforce new norms and to stigmatize those who dissent from the new dispensation; to stigmatize those who insist on values that will impede the new "PC" regime: free speech and free and objective intellectual inquiry."

discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=552
p3undone 8 | 1,150    
5 Apr 2014  #404
Harry,so Harry you're comparing the posters here to people who used the n word 120 years ago,essentially your saying that they are using a pretty heavy racial slur when they use "Murrzyn",but don't realize that this is the case,or are you in essence,saying that like120 years in America,and (only in this respect)that the term is indeed acceptable?This is kind of confusing,is the word a racial slur,or not?I would think that the people here would know this.
McDouche 6 | 286    
5 Apr 2014  #405
Those of you who aren't American should not talk about the N word. You are clueless as to how powerful that word is.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
5 Apr 2014  #406
Those of you who aren't Polish should not talk about "Murzyn". You are clueless as to how neutral that word is.
jon357 65 | 13,627    
5 Apr 2014  #407
With all due respect (and in fact very little is due), the last two posts are rubbish. You don't need to be from UK/US to understand English just as you don't need to be from Poland to understand Polish.

Some words are just to be avoided in polite conversation: two good examples are on this page.

It wouldn't let me edit (a phone call came and the edit function timed out) so here's the rest:

One post is trolling and the last post is responding to being wound up.

You don't need to be from UK/US to understand English just as you don't need to be from Poland to understand Polish. The issue with the words are as much political as linguistic. Magdalena has mentioned 'PC' and used the word 'brigade' - a phrase that as a foreigner speaking English she's doubtless picked up those lexemes from reading/hearing and may or may not realise the kind of lowlife that use the phrase 'PC brigade'. She'd doubtless say she understands the nuances - just as I understand the nuances of the word Murzyn. Her point of view on English is every bit as valid as mine on Polish, since we both live in the country that each other came from originally and speak each others' native language all day, every day.

Worth mentioning that in the old days when 'murzyn' was neutral, the phrase 'PC brigade' did not exist. But language changes fast and some people would not use either phrase; whereas some would happily use both. McDouche however is just trolling.

Some words are just to be avoided in polite conversation: two good examples are on this page.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
5 Apr 2014  #408
Her point of view on English is every bit as valid as mine on Polish,

Magdalena's English is far better than your Polish John - face it

you couldn't even tell there are substantial errors in the sentence 'Murzyny do drewa'
jon357 65 | 13,627    
5 Apr 2014  #409
How would you know?

There's a popular myth that many would fain think, (and this is common to many minor languages) that the Polish language is somehow impenetrable and that English is a kind of Esperanto - that just isn't true.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
5 Apr 2014  #410
you can't tell how to spell 'drzewo' in Polish and you live here for good couple of years and claim to know some Polish - most English speaking foreigners give up learning Polish as it is too much of a headache for them and you tell Polish language is not impenetrable - some humility will serve you pretty well
jon357 65 | 13,627    
5 Apr 2014  #411
It seems you can't understand a thread in English. Look back and you'll see I was quoting something. Perhaps you'd like me to go around with a spray can correcting graffiti. LOL

and you live here for good couple of years and claim to know some Polish

A good couple of decades and when at home, we don't speak English. Ever.

But feel free to jump to conclusions and make false assumptions.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
5 Apr 2014  #412
Look back and you'll see I was quoting something.

what I believe is you made it up with a limited knowledge of Polish fraseology and spelling

as Magdalena already pointed to you no native would write 'Murzyny do drewa' even in a grafitti
jon357 65 | 13,627    
5 Apr 2014  #413
That's actually quite funny - but then again, if you want to judge people by your own low standards (and quite frankly you do have a history of that on here - as well as openly racist and hysterical posts), who's to stop you? By the way, Phraseology is spelt with a Ph.
pam    
5 Apr 2014  #414
I'd almost forgotten about this until I started reading this thread, but I do think it's relevant.
My stepdaughter is mixed race.
A few years ago I introduced her to a Polish friend of mine, who after meeting her, referred to her as ' mulat '.
Although at the time my Polish was pretty bad, it didn't take much working out that the word was derived from ' mulatto ', a word not in common use in the UK today, but one I considered to be offensive considering it's origins.

I told him that i never wanted to hear my stepdaughter referred to as mulat again and that in the UK, most people would consider the word to be offensive.

He seemed to be very surprised by this, and to be honest I really don't think he meant it in a racist way at all as i saw no signs of him being racist and he got on well with my stepdaughter.

I still don't know if that term is considered to be racist by Polish standards, but the point i am trying to make is that although I don't know if the word Murzyn is racist or not, if there is any doubt, then it's easier to simply not use it. The definition of words does change over time, and how and in which context a word is spoken can also make a big difference as to it's meaning.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
5 Apr 2014  #415
He seemed to be very surprised by this, and to be honest I really don't think he meant it in a racist way at all as i saw no signs of him being racist and he got on well with my stepdaughter.

he was surprised because in Polish the word mulat is neutral and book word for a person of mixed black and white race - just like the word murzyn - and I won't stop using the word murzyn just because some foreigners have the misconception that it is somehow racist - and I believe most Poles will do just the same
jon357 65 | 13,627    
5 Apr 2014  #416
in Polish the word mulat is neutral

Was, not is. As Pam says, if in doubt, be polite.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
5 Apr 2014  #417
said Mr Language Trend Setter
Mal - | 1    
5 Apr 2014  #418
Murzyn is not really a racist word. Unfortunately it's being translated as "nigger" way too often and it shouldn't be since the word moor is much more accurate.

Word Murzyn originally came from word (Mohr, Mauri and Moor) used to describe wide range of northern Africa inhabitants, medieval Muslims of many different skin colours.

Not to go into details if you do not consider word moor offensive in English you shouldn't be offended by it in polish.
Since Poland didn't have the skin colour based slavery but rather good old fashion noble lords and peasants model and foreigners until like 20 years ago had been a rarity it should be understandable that in general words associated with skin colour do not bear any real historical burden.

There is a simple test to how can you determinate if a word is an abusive one. Imagine your very angry at someone black, you snapped and wanted to be hurtful - would Murzny really be the word you chose to offend that person ?

Since it got me thinking how does an actual black polish person see all of this I spoke with my friend that is around my age (30) his father came from Africa his mother is polish. Said he never really had problem with being called Murzyn but he didn't like the word Murzynek also said Czarnuch didn't really bothered him although he didn't like it. He said that polish people often are more reckless and unaware then racist.

To be honest times are changing and reckless translations of some words primary by polish people themselves can result in word Murzyn being derogatory in future. Stupidity like brownie - murzynek being translated as nigger cake (I actually heard that one coming from an idiot who wanted to shock his foreigner friends) that spreads false meaning of word and draws bad image of society, after a while naturally becomes hurtful and derogatory.
pam    
5 Apr 2014  #419
he was surprised because in Polish the word mulat is neutral and book word for a person of mixed black and white race

I genuinely believe that this is what he thought, but it goes to show that what is acceptable in one country, certainly might not be in another.

if in doubt, be polite.

Exactly
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
5 Apr 2014  #420
the problem is not with the Polish language but with the English language which lacked a neutral word for people of black skin

there is no good replacement of the word murzyn in Polish language anyway - czarnoskóry is not a good word in Polish - czarny is even worse



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