Life / Expats in Poland - would you fight for your new country? [105]


It's an open question. Whilst I appreciate your analysis of the nuances between 'resident', 'citizen', 'allegiance' and so on, you haven't answered whether or not you would don the czapka and take up arms in Poland's defence.

Technicalities aside, you seem to profess a love for Poland and live there. Would you take the next step and fight for Poland if it was at war with the UK?

A simple yes or no is sufficient.

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


Everything can be a matter of language but the import to the meaning ascribed by the particular use of language is a different thing.

What I mean is that if we use the term British Muslim, aren't we sub-consciously, and perhaps erroneously, saying that a person's religious observance is on par with their nationality vis a vis how they are describing themselves in the notional sense?

My subjective view is that your nationality comes first, and your religion comes a weak second, when identifying yourself.

Life / Expats in Poland - would you fight for your new country? [105]


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall you recently saying words to the effect that in about two years you would be eligible for Polish citizenship and you would probably take that honour? Changing the parameters thus, would your answer change?

Would you fight against Poland then, given you are a UK citizen? Terrible hypothetical decisions, aren't they?

What about fighting as a guerilla for Poland? I'm sure any Polish insurgent band wouldn't be to fussed if you couldn't produce a citizenship certificate. The Scots (and Irish moreso) have a proud tradition of fighting alongside the Poles, citizenship or no.

It's a quandary, isn't it.

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


Whether or not it 'works like that' cf whether it's the right thing objectively are two totally different issues.

What do you think? Shouldn't the indicia of terms such as nationality, citizenship and so on be free of religious appendages, particularly where a religious tag seems to take precedence over what one actually is?

Life / Expats in Poland - would you fight for your new country? [105]


I don't get the gist of your question - please rephrase it. In any event, I was asking a similar question, so instead of asking me to answer my own question, why don't you try to answer it yourself?


I honestly don't know what I'd do. Perhaps face some jail time for being a conscientious objector? It's a terrible thing to ask isn't it? That was the point of this thread really - to foster self-reflection for those UK expats (and/or Plastic Poms such as yourself) in Poland who are sometimes highly critical of the loyalty and conscience crises that face(d) Polish emigres who sometimes were forced to leave their home and adopt another country as their own.

You'd be pretty stuffed in that scenario wouldn't you - an Aussie who thinks he's a Pom but who lives in Poland. Who would you fight for? If you think deeply, it's a real tough one. How do you think Poles in WW2 felt when asked/forced to sign the Volkliste? Have a look at my thread on Koza-Kozarski's memoirs.


That's an interesting take. What do you mean by 'people'? What would be your criteria to establish whether certain 'people' were worth fighting for? How would you distinguish the criteria of 'people' in the notional sense as against a nation of people?


I appreciate your candour. But, if the unthinkable happened, would you form a fifth column behind Polish lines, or would you hand yourself in as an alien who poses a potential threat to Poland?

What if you became a Polish citizen, or had a child who was Polish of Scottish descent? Would that change your loyalties and the way in which you expressed those loyalties in reality?

How do we set the objective benchmark to decide whether your subjective assertions as to what you would do in a war are, objectively, the right ones to make?

The answer is simple - there is no right or wrong answer as to what you should or shouldn't do because the issue is metaphysical and has no right or wrong benchmark to be tested against. Thus, in my view, it's futile to assert that someone is a traitor or disloyal because those descriptions, in this context, do not apply. Judging is easy - empathising is hard.


Thanks Ash - hope it gave you food for thought. Have you been to the Polish Club in Ashfield?


How are the fish portions at your local chippy? I also get bummed out when I order two large pieces of fish on a Sunday and they look like they're just medium sized.

I suppose that's the difference between you and me. I know who I am, and who you are. You wouldn't have a clue who I am, and indeed, I think you're suffering from some sort of identity crisis. You've called me omniscient and perhaps I am. Am I a lawyer though - who cares.

edited out personal content

History / Poland during the Renaissance [146]


I think the two key areas where Poland (and later Pol/Lit Cth) 'did something' during the Renaissance period were in the fields of Constitutional/legal reforms and military theory.

Poland was the only country in Europe to have in place a gradually increasing volume of laws and Constitutions essentially de-centralising 'power' away from the monarch, thus paving the road away from centralised, autocratic and absolutist rule.

Whilst the 'power' of the ruler was diminished somewhat, it was more the case as I see it that the ruler was to be held accountable, and hamstrung in regard to any machinations toward autocratic rule, rather than being politically impotent. I think it was Davies who suggested that as a consequence of the Pacta Conventa and the Henrican Articles (amongst others), no king of Poland could have aspirations other than being a closely monitored manager of a body politic. That said, a competent monarch, such as Batory, wielded power effectively, ensuring that the checks and balances against unilateral and arbitrary exercise of power were rarely evoked by carefully navigating through what he could and could not do.

Whilst these political/constitutional imperatives may seem commonplace and unremarkable to us relative to today's democratice principles, it must be remembered that the context to which these reforms took place, against the European backdrop of absolutist leanings at the time, were quite simply remarkable.

History / Poland during the Renaissance [146]


I think the point Dariusz was trying to make (and forgive me if I misunderstand you ZD), is that rather than going through a 'renaissance' per se, Poland, in essence, during the Renaissance period merely led the way in the cited disciplines, consequent upon an organic predisposition toward those being the best in those disciplines rather than as a reaction to, or by virtue of, what the renaissance was all about?


Good point. Supreme tactics unparalled at the time (say early 1500's to mid 1600's) with another resurgence (albeit limited) during the Napoleonic period.


'Tis ironic in the circumstances that said 'bashers' have referred to our good selves as the 'nasty brigade'.

News / Who is "the enemy within" in Poland? [88]


The 'enemy within' could potentially be those expats who would fight for their natural country rather than their adopted Poland, in the event that Poland went to war with their natural country, or vice versa.

Genealogy / Kasprzak Golab looking for family history [11]

On 9 May 1944, Jozefa Kasprzak was transported with 56 other women from the Pawiak to Ravensbruck. Her fate is unknown. I'm sorry if this was a relative.

History / The strange destiny of Antoni Aleksander Iliński [32]


Hi mate,

If memory serves, this portrait appears in the Osprey Men-at-Arms series of books, in the Polish military edition. I think the subject was an Oginski, or the leader of a mercenary Polish outfit in Western Europe, painted on his reurn to Poland circa the Swedish Wars in the 1650's, as I recall the commentary to the portrait.

I'd have to say his hat is a kolpak, progenitor of the busby and other fur trimmed cavalry hats. Cheers.

History / 1920 Battle of Warsaw - English trailer and film [55]


Hey champ, I think we'll have to wait for this to come out on Foxtel, or go with all the babcia's/busia's down to the Polish Club to watch it.

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]


There was indeed. Whilst I'm unaware of specific instances of popular protest, I understand there was a strong and vociferous minority of politicians who risked much to decry HMG's (and specifically Churchill's) policy of appeasement to the Muscovites and treatment of Poland, consequent upon HMG's acquiescence to Stalin's designs for keeping what he had gained of Polish territory (Yalta).

The more relevant back stab was, in my view, the failure of HMG to tell Poland about the critical issues materialising out of Teheran, not to mention HMG’s craven acquiescence to Stalin. The backstab is even more serious because it was in breach, and in contempt, of HMG’s obligation to tell Poland (per Art. 5 of the Treaty) of any development that would threaten Poland’s independence.

Consequently, Poland was unaware that it was to be subject to significant and prejudicial changes to its borders and socio political makeup after the dust settled on WW2.

Stalin took it to mean that HMG probably couldn’t care less about what happened to Poland post WW2. Ergo, in my view, his actions, probably commencing at around the time of the Warsaw Rising and subsequently, should have come as no surprise to HMG and probably occurred in large part due to the fact that Stalin understood he had carte blanche and jurisdiction to do as he pleased in Poland, because HMG acquiesced to his designs as articulated at Teheran. As to what the USA did (or didn’t do), it’s largely irrelevant in this context because they were not contractually bound with Poland, morality aside.

The basest treachery lies in the fact that HMG continued to use Polish forces to continue fighting even after the treachery at Teheran, when the moral and just thing to do would have been to release the Poles, given that the Poles were now fighting for everything except their own interests. But no, this didn’t occur, because to do so would have been contrary to further British interests of using Poles (arguably the best contingent under HMG’s auspices numbering in the hundreds of thousands) to shed blood and die under the false assumption that they were fighting and dying for an ally and for mutual gain.

I think it was General Gubbins who articulated, in relation to HMG’s attitude to Poland, words to the effect that “we’ll squeeze as much as we can out of them then drop them”. Even that sentiment was incorrect, because in the early months of 1945 when Anders sought release of Polish forces to fight their way back home, he was refused. Bled dry, with pennies dropping all around him, how must Anders have felt to have been refused his request.

The story of HMG’s treachery toward Poland in WW2 is that simple. I believe that had the people of Britain known what was going on at the time they would have put a stop to it.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Go on then, pop down to the local Polish Club in Ashfield and tell them this Otter. It makes me shudder to think that you are an Aussie with Polish parents yet you come up with comments like this. Go away and stop trolling with inflammatory comments.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Non sequitur mate. Go on then, pop down to the Ashfield Polish Club and propose thanks to the Soviets

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Sorry, not an opinion, a fact.


Why not? You're brave enough, with your comments, to insult the memory of our ancestors who perished under the Soviets, and disrespect the members of this forum who were effected by same, behind the safety and anonymity of a computer screen, so why not go there and tell them how you feel at the Club.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


The 17th. Why?

It doesn't change the fact that you got owned in trying to deliberately inflame this thread by suggesting we give thanks to the Soviets. Come correct next time. It's not cool to despise your heritage - embrace it - it's a good one.

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [395]


Well said. Whilst I'm sure you're aware of it, Gen. Okulicki (aka Bear Cub) provided a statement as to the reasons why the Rising was launched. It makes compelling (and I'd suggest compulsory, given its candour) reading and is an Appendix to Davies' Rising '44, or may be available online. I prefer his views to the fantasies postulated by some of our resident armchair experts.

Indubitably, a triumph of the spirit, relative to the circumstances. I can't recall who said it, but to borrow a phrase "To Poland, it was more important to play the game fairly than to win it". Modern day Poland is far removed from such romantic notions, but vis a vis tragedies of the past, which cannot be changed or rationalised, such sentiment provides solace and a hope that the sacrifice wasn't in vain.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


How so?


How do you embrace your heritage?

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]

PWEI?


Can someone tell me who this noob poster is please? He's carrying on like he has some issue with me. It's as though he's upset because I've owned him on several occasions in the past on this forum (viz Harry), but surely that can't be, because I've never communicated with this PWEI.


I'd like to help you chief, but I just don't understand your question, as it makes no sense - i.e. it would be a strange agreement indeed that had parts showing independence being threatened. Perhaps rephrase it?

Actually, now I remember - there was an Aussie chap who called himself "Harry" on this forum (he hasn't been here in a while, having, one can only assume, exhausted himself online from a surfeit of self-important toast liberally smeared with lashings of figjam – or was that kebabs?) and we had some particularly interesting debates on this very topic some time ago. There's a wonderful feature on this site called "search" - you can look up our debates (yes, before you come back and say it, I know, I owned him in every genuine debate we had).


Ah, we have a dilettante on Sikorski in our midst. Pray tell (as your knowledge on this would undoubtedly surpass mine), what was the rationale behind Sikorski's proposal here and what where the salient features of his proposal vis a vis how same could benefit Poland? Surely he didn't really mean to just give away parts of the Kresy with only a commensurate border shift to the West, as you imply? How did he go with putting this proposal to the Polish Govt in Exile? Did it ever progress beyond an ethereal pipe dream? Tally-ho, you’ve got some research to do…


When, then, was Poland made aware of this, and by whom? If it was indeed HMG bearing the message in discharge of its obligations under Art. 5 of the Treaty in consequence of matters arising in respect of Teheran, then tarry not and send Harry a PM advising of same, as I'm sure he spent many a sleepless night fumbling through Wiki looking for this very same piece of evidence in rebuttal of my proposition.


If this simply did not exist, then it is a simple matter to demonstrate that which existed, the existence of which would simply vindicate the rebuttal to the simple charge that HMG, simply put, betrayed Poland, when, to put it even more simply, a simple message of simplistic narrative, simplifying the simple outcomes of Teheran, simplistically delivered to the Poles, by simple minded people, was, to put it simply, never delivered. Simple no?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


I had always had it in my mind that Poland was in Eastern Europe, and indeed the Eaternmost European country. Literature from the C16 or 17 refers to Poland as the easternmost bastion of Christianity.

News / What's the stupidest question asked about Poland? [414]


Were Cool Rock-ski and Lovebug Starski Polish?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


Oops! Sorry to the Ukraine. And sorry for the typo too, though I suspect if one could indulge in eating a country, Poland would probably be 'eatenmost'.


Kind of (thanks for the save mate). I was actually in a historic mindset when I typed that, per my reference to the literature of the C16 & 17.

History / Why have Poles contributed so little to Academics? (Particularly Science) [180]


They have. Why not google "Timeline of Polish science and technology". That'll set you right champ.


These Jews are Poles of Jewish faith nonetheless aren't they? Why distinguish?

History / Why have Poles contributed so little to Academics? (Particularly Science) [180]


But the OP asked a question about Poles (inclusive presumably) rather than Christian Poles. I'm a bit confused here, are you the same person?

I infer from your quoted post that you wish to cast a negative aspersion vis a vis Poland's purported lack of contribution to academia. I apologise if I am wrong and would appreciate clarification. Cheers.

History / Interesting memorial about 212 Polish soldiers [18]

Thanks for the info mate. Great story that I was totally unaware of. Cheers.

Good on the Poms of Portsmouth!

Off-Topic / I thought my house had ghosts, but according to a paranormal psychic it is hovering demon [30]


I believe you. I've had a similar experience, though not as severe, when I was in my mid teens. I suspect that only those that have experienced these types of things can relate, because these types of experiences cannot be explained, and you know it when it happens.

My friend was with me at the time. We were staying at his house and had gone for a motorbike ride. No one was in the house, as his mother and sister were on holidays. The house was isolated on an acreage.

Anyways, we had parked up just under the house (it was on pylons). It was late afternoon. We were getting ready to go inside when we heard a noise from inside. It was coming through the floorboards and was only a few metres away, over our heads.

It wasn' what we saw but what we heard - I can only describe it as a disembodied voice that penetrated through the house, speaking in a language we had never heard of. It sounded deep and evil.

My friend and I looked at each other to verify what we had heard. We got back on the bike and didn't return for a few days. There were no signs of entry in the house. We still talk about this incident. We both agree it was something paranormal and it wasn't good. It still gives me goosebumps.

We spoke to his mum about it later, and she told us she had seen something years before at the house that looked like a Chinese man dressed in mandarin style.

The same friend and I saw something else that still creeps us out. Again, we had been bike riding, in a forest, and were parked in a clearing to have a break and a ciggie. I saw something through the bush (Aussie low lying scrub with gum trees) probably 20-30 metres away, which I thought was a gigantic kangaroo - it was absolutely massive, with short brownish-grey fur - I guess 7 foot high. It was just standing there. I pointed it out to my friend and he freaked out. It turned its face to us, and it wasn't any kangaroo, or anything we had seen ever. It was vaguely humanoid, and that's all I can remember now.

It just stood there, looking at us, unmoving. I freaked by that stage too - and guess what - my old Yamaha GT80 decided it didn't want to start. The feeling at that stage was not good - utter helplessness. I got it going and we took off. This creature never moved toward us though. Thank Christ it didn't.

Thinking back on it and examining the situation, the feeling I had at the time was reminiscent of blindly walking into something you shouldn't experience, or standing outside the window of a house where something bad is going down and one of the occupants looks up at you.

To those of you who doubt, you'll know it if you experience it.

History / Do polish people know that some of them fought a war against the United States? [60]


A rose by any other name.


Inconsistent comparison.


Communist Poles you mean?

History / Poland: Her heroes and her traitors [214]

Whenever I think of Polish heroes I think of the likes of Bear Cub, Nil and Novak. Their deeds, and particularly the silence under torture of the former 2, hold them high as paragons of virtue and selflessness. If I could have but 100th of the honour contained in the little finger of 1 of them I would be satisfied.

I think Davies described Bear Cub as a knight without peer or reproach, and that is true.

History / Do polish people know that some of them fought a war against the United States? [60]


May I ask if you think it important to qualify that phrase with "Communist"? I think it important to distinguish "free" Poland, as opposed to Commo Poland, don't you? It's just so that people who aren't really familiar with history understand the nuance attached to any deed or thing by the qualification that the subject is Communist, or to that effect.

I also personally think it's an insult and an affront to the memory of those that perished fighting for a free Poland to not delineate between the actions of those under Communist Poland and those living in free Poland.