Real Estate / Poland Housing prices in July 2010 [129]


Every week or so, you revive the same topics about property. As SeanBM states, "you supposedly live in Ireland, have no connection with Poland and yet you continue to provide false statements as to the health of the property market here. You never supply any up to date links or factual information that can be checked or challenged. You suggest that anybody who is involved with property, whether a builder/estate agent, fit-out specialist etc. is trying to talk the market up to get prices to rise.

You have predicted falls in the price of property which are absolutely rediculous, you have also predicted that many developers will go bankrupt. None of this has happened, indeed, if you can read the Warsaw Business Journal, you would understand that there are many reports of developers stepping up their new projects and announcing new starts in many of the major cities. These developers are shying away from the top end luxury market and concentrating on smaller, less expensive units, many with the starting price of 6-8000 PLN m2, not the 2000m2 which you and your other "associates" ( I will refrain from using the word alias's) seem to think should be the norm. These developers have "done their homework", they would not undertake to build these new apartments unless there was a high percentage in their favour that the units will sell and they will make a profit.

Since my own small project of 13 apartments was finished (building legalised) in January of this year, I have sold 10 of the apartments, many people viewed them but most had trouble getting a mortgage from the banks, but, in the past few months this has changed and there has been a surge of buyers. I took a chance on building in an area outside of the main town (10kms) next to the lakes and forests, my apartments are 1000 PLN m2 below the town prices. I have the confidence now to start preparing my next project as I still believe that there are not enough new, affordable places being built and the lower price of land in this area will enable me to keep the prices down. Everyone of my apartments has been sold to a Polish buyer which negates the statement that only foriegners can afford to buy in Poland.

Milky, I have read your posts and "English does not seem to be your main language", but, you may recall an old English adage, "better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and prove it".

You will now use this strange word "Snark" to descibe my post, as someone telling you the truth of the property market in Poland will not suit your agenda.

There are those that talk and those that do, you seem to be one of the latter.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


Then I must be the exception to the rule. The windows in the apartments I have just built are UPVC with a 5 year guarantee, pation doors are sliding, not the crappy Polish ones which open inwards. The main access doors to the building are "white powder coated aluminium", much stronger due to the additional wear of more passenger traffic, these also have a 5 year guarantee.

Think carefully before you "tar every builder with the same brush".

• 
  
  
• 
  
  

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


I would have thought that the question from the original poster was very ambiguous and open to several types of answers/questions. He stated he was looking for flats at the top end of the market, requested prices from people here but made no mention if the flat was to be finished or left to developers standard. The cost equasion then becomes a "how long is a piece of string".

Other posters pointed out to him that prices can vary considerably, depending, on the type of finishes you require and the limit of your budget. How the subject got on to 100 000 euro bathrooms, I'm not quite sure but the quality of the build and finishes will always affect the price.

You have been told countless times by people who are experienced in dealing with property in Poland that there has been a correction to the huge price rises from 2005-2007, albeit, not as large a reduction as you would like. You want someone, anyone, to agree with you that prices are going to fall back to the levels of 2000-2002. This is not going to happen but I am very sure that in one or two weeks time you will repost the same question hoping that Polsky, Claritus or one of the others will be back to agree with you.

What follows is a recent artical in the Warsaw Business Journal:-

Invest Plan's lake project

13th September 2010

Developer Invest Plan Group has launched sales of homes in the first phase of its Wille nad Zalewem scheme - a project located in Białobrzegi on Zegrzyńskie Lake near Warsaw, a popular holiday destination for the capital's inhabitants.

The investment will be developed in two stages, delivering a total of 39 houses. Construction on the first stage, comprising 18 villas and a commercial building, started in June and is expected to finish in Q3 2011. The average price of houses in Wille nad Zalewem amounts to zł.1.5 million.

Now this may be what the original poster had in mind, but, with the best will in the world, apartments and houses are not going to go down to the 1500 PLNm2 that you seem to require.

What is my experience with property here in Poland?.......I have actually bought land, planned/designed, built and sold apartments from the ground up to the finishes. I think that qualifies me, along with over 30 years in the Federation of Master Builders and having given NHBC 10 years guarantees on apartments and houses I built in the UK.

I await with anticipation, the next load of crap you come out with.


Two links to articals that may help you decide if the price of high end apartments are going to slide/crash. Whilst they refer to the market in Warsaw, Krakow is not that far behind.

wbj.pl/realestatenews-51073-healthy-numbers.html
wbj.pl/article-50815-a-luxury-tax.html

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

Excluding furniture, I would have thought you could achieve a decent finish for around 1200PLN m2 as a budget figure. SeanBM should be able to give you a more accurate figure as this is his line of work and he has a fitout company in the Krakow area.

Law / How to open a company with EU Funds in Poland? [18]

Knowing Poland, about 60K

Love / Unmarried couples in Poland = pathology [310]

A few hundred years ago when the marriage act/service was introduced, the life expectancy for men/women was less than half of what it is now. Even the bible quotes that "the life of man, shall be four score years and ten", meaning 70. Not many people reached that age, due, to diseases, unsafe working conditions, poverty, wars etc. Large families were common as the infant mortality rate was very high ( the same principles apply to most of the 3rd world countries now, they have many children and hopefully, so that they will look after you in your old age). I cannot speak for what I have seen so far in Poland but in most of the Western countries, the UK in particular, you can walk into a pub or restaurant and see older couples sat side by side and if you watch carefully, they hardly speak to each other. The relationship has become more of a "habit" than love. They have spent so many Years together that communication has almost become "telepathic", they know what and when each other want to eat or drink, they have totally different interests, but, they are scared of trying to form a new relationship and they still enjoy each others company. So the irritating habits that they have formed over the years are ignored, the woman is houseproud and the man is a slob.

Do you honestly believe that men and women should spend 60-70years living togther?. Most get married in their 20's, their children (the ones you seem most concerned about) are married or left home by the time the parents are in their 40's. This age is the prime time of their lives, you have either made a good career/money by this age or you are going to have a very mediocore life. Why should a women/man be expected to carry on in an unhappy relationship for another 20, 30, 40 years, just to please public opinion?.

Why should two people remain living together, if, they are unhappy?. Surely, if all the responsibilities to the prodigeny of any relationship have been carried out, then, the parents should be allowed to seek/find happiness where they can. I am not condoning feckless fathers that breed whenever they get the opportunity and never even try to support thei wives or kids, but, I do object to so called "do-gooders" who cannot still "pull" even if they tried. You have one life, live it as fully as possible, but, do your damndest, not to hurt anyone else. you do not have enough experience to even broach this topic as it takes a lifetime to understand what was good and what was bad. Only the Pope is inffalible, the rest of us mortals have to learn from our mistakes.

NB. Blame this on the Sobieski and the fact I had to buy a dishwasher today. The one I've had for the last 5 years has refused to do it anymore. (selfish *****).

Life / How to Politely Refuse a Drink in Poland [72]

When the polish neighbours come around to visit, its when you are unconcious, they assume that you have refused to drink anymore, so, they come around at 7.30 the next morning to see if you want to continue!!!!!...Jezu, I love this country!!!!

Love / Unmarried couples in Poland = pathology [310]

You wish the State and the Church to dictate how you live your life. What happens to freedom of choice?. We have laws to enable a civilized society to function without anarchy. Would you like to see the Chinese system enforced so that families can only have one child?

Our way of life has been changing for the past few decades and we have enjoyed a freedom which was unknown to past generations. The size of families has been declining, to the state, where there will be no young workers to contribute to the pensions of the people who have paid into the system for years.

I cannot think of any religion or government that has not had its share of scandles which would be any sort of inspiration of how people should live their lives, yet these are the very people who are elected to lead and set an example. Recent cases have been the corruption/expenses scandles of the UK, Italian, French parliments. They cheat, steal, lie and yet they are supposed to set an example to us, the common people. We then see them taken to court and get away with it.

The accountants for the EU have refused to "sign off" the accounts for the past 15 years due to massive corruption and yet these "unelected" spongers dictate how we should live our lives.

Stop generalizing and realise that we all have make the best out of bad lot.
The rule of "anything goes" only seems to apply to bankers and politicians. Most of the people I know seem to obey the simple rules of life.

News / Smoking ban in Polish bars and restaurants (AT LAST!) [400]

I have to agree with you Harry. Some two years ago I read a government report that stated that it was costing the NHS, some £700 million to treat patients with smoking related illness's.What they failed to mention was the £8 billion pounds collected from tobacco duties. This is why no UK government will ban smoking completely, it would add 5p in the pound to income tax. Its the same with the lst govenment, brought in 24 hour drinking and then complained that there were increased costs to the NHS for Alchohol related injuries as the A & E centres were full over the weekends with "binge" drinkers.

The solution seems to be that everything is banned, you live to be 100 and then you starve because there are too many people alive and not enough people working to fund the pension/health schemes. Take away drinking and smoking and the only thing left to do will be to shag like bunnies and overpopulate the world.

Am I really expected to talk to my Mrs when I am sober? what about my human rights?

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS SO SPECIAL LIVING IN U.K [90]


Yes.I do live here. Yes, its not perfect. But, if I felt the same way as you, I would fcuk off home to the perfect land. If you think its bad there at the moment, wait until you hear the cuts in services, the increase in taxation, the reduction in benefits, the cuts in education, the NHS, the armed services. All the things you took for granted will be gone. Nothing to do with the new government, purely the excess spending of the last government.

If you spend to exess, you go bankrupt, the last Labour government did this for you.

News / Smoking ban in Polish bars and restaurants (AT LAST!) [400]

oice?

You just hate, anybody that disagrees with you. You state that you are 6.3 and weigh 90 KG,
and you say that you will fight anyone that disgrees with your principles. Come and visit me,. I am 5'9", weigh 100 kgs and I will beat rthe **** out of you Tell me that I cannot smoke in a bar where they allow smoking. I don't give fcuk. itd not your choice!!!!. its the choice of the owner of the bar.

You mentioned you.re 18 year od daughter. When she tries drugs or sex for the first time, are you going to cry on here that its the fault of the Polish people?

Grow up!!!, being English does not mean that you are perfect. Make an allowance that we are all human, we make mistakes. that is what makes life so interesting.

Real Estate / Poland Housing prices in July 2010 [129]


A very good (American) documentary which has nothing in common with the situation in Poland. The stock market here never reacted to the "buying and selling" attitude that happened on Wall Street. No Polish banks went bust. Polish banks never dealt in "complicated derivatives", Poland has not printed money for quantitative easing, therefore allowing their currency to devalue, so how the hell does this article have anything to do with the situation here? The interest rate in Poland is 4.25% which is just above the line of inflation, compare this to the interests rates in the States and the UK, 0.25%, (forecast to remain this way until 2015). People are getting no returns on their savings which are being eroded by inflation and the higher costs of living. There is now talk of currency wars where countries which have not had to debase their currencies will benefit from overseas investments as people look for returns elsewhere.

Even the past week will show how the strength of the Zloty has increased. Its going to be a roller coaster ride if you gamble on this sort of thing, but it seems to me that the Polish economy is very stable at the moment, which in turn, will keep property prices stable.

As for the Americans, you must remember that they do not seem to have found a solution to their own financial problems, in fact, they have not even found Bin Laden yet, so I would not put too much trust in what they have to say.

I have watched the property market pick up in the second half of this year and I feel confident that this increase, although slow, will continue. We will not see the 50% per year increases of 2007, but, I think that 5-8% a year will be realistic.

Real Estate / Poland real estate transaction prices higher than at the beginning of 2010 [28]

And never one fact or link to back it up. The same predictions for two years now and the crash has still not happened. It must be very frustrating for you Milky, but never mind, the rents will be going up again soon.

News / WHY IS POLAND STILL GIVEN THE COLD SHOULDER? [197]

Watching CNN and Blomberg financial programmes over the past couple of days and they are all raving about the latest growth figures for Germany, predictions of 3.5% next year which they say will be the best in Europe. No mention of the fact that Poland never went into recession or that Polish growth is predicted to be exactly the same.

I think that the uS and the rest if the G20 still regard Poland as a non-entity.

Real Estate / Poland real estate transaction prices higher than at the beginning of 2010 [28]

A very stupid analogy. All I see is death and starvation, due to the inability to farm the land properly, corruption, ethnic/tribal wars, dictatorships and the exploitation of their mineral/oil wealth by Western/Asian nations. How did that happen under white rule?. The African countries are still crying out for huge amounts of international aid because of their total lack of understanding how to run a country. They cannot even agree on the way to vote let alone sort out their problems.

Perhaps the solution to your so say "bubble" is to kill all the landlords and property developers in Poland and share the land out amongst the people?

Real Estate / Poland real estate transaction prices higher than at the beginning of 2010 [28]

Thank you for providing this useless bit of information. I could have taken it seriously except for the two "WARNINGS" at the top, which state, "These submissions need to be verified with facts", it kind off gives doubts as to the veracity of whats being stated. For all I know, this could have been your contribution to "Wikipedia". You also fail to mention the section at the bottom which gives the reasons for property prices to increase.

Oil per barrel in 2007 went up by 100%, its now dropped down to half of this, but, the price to you at the pumps has not been passed on, its still the same as two years ago.


I hardly think that a couple of rap videos are going to impress the meeting of the G20 finance ministers today. I am very wary of "economic experts", especially after their failure to predict the financial crisis in the first place. I notice that the "comments" space provided on this site did not elicit any intelligent replies. I don't think that "bring it on" counts in a serious debate.

The truth is what you see happening around you in your area, not what the media is reporting from another country. I have not heard of any house repossessions in my area. There have been job losses but nothing on a major scale. Millions are being spent on infrastructure, new shopping galleries, sports facilities and a new theatre. If this is the crash you are predicting then I hope it lasts another 20 years.

News / WHY IS POLAND STILL GIVEN THE COLD SHOULDER? [197]

Torq

Can you send me some of the stuff you are smoking?...I know its supposed to make you feel paranoid, but, what the hell!!!!!

Real Estate / Poland real estate transaction prices higher than at the beginning of 2010 [28]

Only Obama left and look at the mess these countries have to sort out. All having to print money and ruin the lives of their populations. And you are comparing this to present day Poland.

You are a sad puppy.

Work / Polish Residency Cards. Is there a Permanent ID card for Foreigners? [37]


Wait until you get the police visit!!!!....they just turn up. No warning or appointment. Scary.

Real Estate / Poland Housing prices in July 2010 [129]


Its not for me to say whether any property is over or under valued, at the end of the day its the market that will dictate the price. A 50% increase would definitely be very speculative and not something I would like to see. A slow increase would stabilize the markets and allow for better planning.


I have read reports from the large developers that materials and labour costs have decreased by some 20% which has offset the cost of the reductions made on finished properties. Mortgages are still hard to come by and I would imagine that the vacant apartments in Wroclaw are priced above the limits that mortgage lenders feel comfortable with.

With regard to wage rises slowing down to inflation levels, I think that may be hard to achieve when the government has increased VAT and the utilities, gas, electric and water, are asking for 22% increases. If and I mean its a BIG if, the government wants to adopt the Euro, wages are going to have to increase to try and have a level playing field.

I am already planning my next project and I have allowed for a small increase in labour/materials, the selling price will remain the same as I am at the lower end of the market and any projects still have to be viable.

The interest/response to my last project over the past few months has been incredible and I feel very confident for the future. An added bit of information, 30% of the flats were sold to Polish couples who work in the UK, they are not moving in for some time and they originally come from this area.

Real Estate / Poland Housing prices in July 2010 [129]


I personally find it easier to build outside the city limits. It is then not necessary for the planners to have to take, traffic, infrastructure or the "studium" into consideration, this can delay a planning decision. Paperwork is always the same unfortunately, every department wants its share of Złoty for putting the stamp on a bit of paper.


I set the price and I pay the commission to the agent, there is no commission to pay for the buyer.

Real Estate / Poland Housing prices in July 2010 [129]

convex
warszawski

Further to today's posts, it seems that I was correct about what the bigger developers (2 in Warsaw and 1 in Krakow) are going to do. If you look at the WBJ today (link below) it seems that they are all going to build at around the 6000 per m2 (minimum) mark as this seems to be the limit that the banks want to lend at. The market has dictated the price and its not 2000 per m2 as some people hoped. I wonder if the quality will suffer to satisfy the shareholders greed?

wbj.pl/category-65-wbj-residential.html

Real Estate / Poland Housing prices in July 2010 [129]


I have seen this happen in the UK. The developers will try to screw the subbies (contractors) into the ground on prices. It then becomes a game of cat and mouse as to who can get away with what. Many good, small companies were made bankrupt when the big boys delayed payments and argued over everything. It got so bad that the minute you signed a contract, you knew it was going to end up in litigation.

I was tendering for work against companies whose pricing of the same works would not cover the cost of the materials, let alone overhead and profit. The big boys would accept the price, making sure that they held enough money back to get another contractor in to finish the job.

That was when I stopped working for them and did my own developing.

Travel / Very dangerous defrauding trend started in some hotels in Krakow [49]


Speaking of identity theft, what about people that post on PF with multiple identities, who use the same bad English and expressions. What is the motive for doing this?. Personally, I would call this a form of LUNACY. I think I will go long with Delph on this one, its our old, unimaginative, Krakow friend again.

Study / Considerations for US Family Moving to Poland (esp. Int'l Schools) [36]


Perhaps she is not able to take the United States Marine Corp with her? Americans are not exactly flavour of the month in those places. Not exactly a place to take the kids.

Law / EU citizen's residency Registration Certificate: Poland application form [14]

Harry,


You have to collect the form in person. Get all the documents that you provided last time and "5" not 4 photo's this time. It takes about 2-3 months and will involve an unannounced police visit to you home address to make sure that you do not represent a security threat to Poland.

When you get the letter telling you to pick you piece of paper up, remember to take your passport with you as they only have 15 copies already. They will open your file in front of you with your picture on the front page and then ask you for identification.

I felt like dragging the little bastard over the counter.

Real Estate / Buying a flat in Krakow; prices are still falling? [200]


What did you offer them? 300PLN m2?. According to your early posts, prices should have dropped by 60%-80% by now. Please do not t3ell me that this has not happened!!!!!

Real Estate / Residential property in Poland - council tax or rates payable? [6]


Yes. This tax is payed to the local Gmina yearly. I have a detached house in 13 aras and the tax is approximately 200PLN a year. I am not sure if there is a national rate or if it differs, according to area.

Law / Staly Meldunek / Karta Pobytu - achievable for an EU resident? [7]

I am still trying to figure out how my "Permanent Residence" is only valid for 10 years.

Love / Concerns about Polish Family / Child Support Law [68]

The word "virgin" comes to mind.

On a serious note, my little Polish daughter costs me 2000 złoty a month and she is worth every groszy. Accident or not, she is mine and I love her to bits.