History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews. Groups of Jews, sometimes quite large, did so in public in almost every locality taken over by the Soviet troops. Usually, they comprised youth and the poor, and among the Jews there were plenty of these, since poverty and high birth rate go together. Many enthusiastic supporters of the new regime showed up. Their numbers were sufficiently large to leave a lasting impression on the memory of not only Poles and the Ukrainians – whose testimonies can be suspected of lack of objectivity. The Jews themselves noticed their stupidity with the benefit of hindsight, writing that in the first period of the occupation their relations with the new arrivals from the East turned out very well.......

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Oh, I'm sorry Harry, I forgot to put my last post in quote marks and credit the author for his work.

That quote is from W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali. Polska-Rosja 1939-1942. The Author is Professor Jan T Gross, I am sure you have heard of him. I found that quote while researching the online archives about Polish-Jewish relations which are on the Yad Vashem site. You have heard of Yad Vashem I assume Harry?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


ROFLMFAO Harry, if you knew where the quote was from you wouldn't have attacked me the way you did. You, my friend, have been caught out once again. I deliberately didn't use quote marks because I knew you would jump straight down my throat with a response claiming I was lying and true to form that is exactly what you did. Just as John Morrison didn't use quote marks when he posted his compilation of witness statements.

Now lets get back to other things, have you any idea what a summary is? Let me help you on this one. A summary, synopsis, or recap is a shorter version of the original. Such a simplification highlights the major points from the much longer subject, such as a text, speech, film, or event. The purpose is to help the audience get the gist in a short period of time.

The article: kamunikat.fontel.net/www/czasopisy/bzh/07/07art_wierzbicki.htm
is a 7,728 word document which details the events of the Skidel uprising, it states quite clearly who the participants were, it even gives the names of some of the main protagonists, yet you choose to quote a 67 word summary because that suits your blinkered view point. Or is it because the summary is in English and you don't understand Polish?

Don't go away Harry, I'm just getting warmed up :)

Genealogy / my Polish Grandfather in Hitler Youth? HOW? [65]

Does it give an enlistment date? From 1944 onwards when the Nazis realised they were going to lose the war they were desperate for new recruits to bolster their flagging numbers. Many people from other nations were forcibly conscripted into the German ranks.

Genealogy / my Polish Grandfather in Hitler Youth? HOW? [65]

There's your answer then. If he was living in Germany then he wouldn't have had a choice.

Genealogy / my Polish Grandfather in Hitler Youth? HOW? [65]

You just had to look the part - blonde hair & blue eyes and hey presto, you are now part of the mythical Aryan race.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

I wonder if that would work if you were doing a degree - "if you want references try Google". I would have thought that when someone is making a claim about something then in order to prove they knew what they were talking about then a link should be provided eg when Harry said this


he failed to provide any evidence to back this up. So if you have evidence about the NDs in pre war Poland being motivated by racism or anti Semitism then you should provide evidence to back up your statement. If you say it's readily available via a Google search then I'm sure you will have no trouble providing us with links just as I am sure Harry should have no trouble providing me with a link proving that what Gross wrote in his book was being quoted out of context. :)

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

There you go again Harry, distorting things to suit your own twisted reality. The only person here who thinks I am a liar is you. You're not even consistent with your arguments and the very fact that you cannot even provide any proof that Jan T Gross's writing has been taken out of context further goes to prove that your ramblings are your own personal opinions. Provide me with proof that what Gross wrote has been taken out of context, your fragile credibility could be strengthened somewhat if you can carry out this one piece of information.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

This thread went way off topic a long time ago. I am not disputing what you say about the ND's as I am of the same opinion but it would be a lot easier if you provided links to back things up. It saves a lot of arguments :)

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205416.pdf
If this excerpt from the book isn't true do you really think that Yad Vashem would have it on its site?

Now you can prevaricate and obfuscate as much as you want Harry but you still haven't shown to me


. Show me the evidence.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Harry, you made the claim that Gross is being quoted out of context and it is something he wouldn't say. Prove that your claim has credibility. Stop trying to change the subject all the time. If you are so confident that your statement is true then show us the evidence to back it up.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

No Harry, the onus is on you to show that your statement is true. I am not doing your work for you. By refusing to back your statement up it is safe to assume you already know you it not to be true. Twist and turn as much as you like, try and divert attention to other issues as much as you like, you need to prove that the statement you made about what Gross wrote being taken out of context is true. If you are unable to do that then it is glaringly obvious that you know what you wrote to be false.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


Let's get over this one point and I will be more than happy to address many of the other points you have raised, I'll even let you choose which one we can tackle next but in the meantime, provide me with evidence to back up your statement, a statement that you made when you claimed you knew where the quote was from so thereofre no further need for me to prove to you that it was written by Gross as you have already acknowledged the fact. You were very quick to say you knew where it was from then go on to say it was taken out of context so therefore you must know this book very well to have made such a statement. Your words Harry, there for all to see. So what is it, you know the book well or you don't? You can back your statement up or you can't?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


Gross has his works published in both Polish and English as I am sure you are more than aware of. You are the one who has claimed it is only a Polish work. As Gross is fluent in both Polish and English I think he is more than capable of writing his own words equally well in both languages without the need for a translator. So, once again, show me proof to back up your comment.

Travel / My holiday, Gdansk or Kaunus, Lithuania? Help me decide! [23]

I have been to Kaunas. Apart from a small, renovated old town area the rest of it is a dump. Agreed that Vilnius is a lot nicer but I'm not sure that it's worth spending 5 days there unless you want to use it as a base to go and see other places. I'd definitely recommend Gdansk. The old town is fantastic and Sopot is just a short train ride away. If you like old castles then Malbork is about an hour away on the train and is worth taking a day out of your schedule to see.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Please provide links to validate your statistical claims highlighted in bold and also provide a link to evidence to validate your claim that Gross has been quoted out of context.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Wow. That was a quick response Harry, pity you can't provide a link to your lie that Gross never wrote what he did in his book and that he was being quoted out of context. Of the pre war population of Poland around 10% of the population claimed Jewish etnicity


Just quoting you here Harry so we know we are both agreed that 10% of the Polish population was of Jewish etnicity. When you say approximately, what margin for error either way is there in this approximate figure?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


I quoted your quote and nowhere before you posted that did you say that you were quoting Yad Vashem. The link you posted at the bottom of your post here polishforums.com/history-poland-34/poles-owe-jews-60402/7/# msgmsg1283733 which is from Yad Vashem, and on that page it is claimed that the figure is over 100,000, nowhere is the word approximate used.

I am enquiring about your use use of the term "approximate" because in an earlier post here polishforums.com/history-poland-34/poles-owe-jews-60402/7/# msg1283609 you said it was a fact that the figure was exactly 100,000. I am trying to determine whether in your opinion it is a fact that the figure of 100,000 is a cast iron certainty or if in the space of a few posts you are having doubts about your claim that is was a fact or not as you posted a quote and a link where you contradict yourself. You say "fact" it was 100,000, then you say "approximately" but the link you posted says "over 100,000". Therefore having raised doubts in my mind what you are actually meaning, I asked you


So whether it is you using the word "approximately" Yad Vashem, the man in the moon or whoever, you quoted the word so therefore I am asking you, in your opinion, what margin for error either way of the 100,000 figure would you define the bands of approximation?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

You then go on to say approximately. So as well as refusing to back up your claim that Gross wouldn't say what he wrote and it was taken out of context, you now refuse to define what you think is meant by approximate. You are so quick to provide links when you are sure of yourself as you do here and that is a thread started only a few hours ago. I asked you 3 days ago to back up your words that Gross's work was being quoted out of context and still you are unable to do so and we know why you are unable to do so because you can't. If you were so certain of your words you would have proven to me long ago just as you have been so quick and so happy to disparage monia on the other thread. You've been proved to be wrong in your claims, your false claim - should I play your game Harry and call you a liar? Nah, I won't because i don't have to stoop to your level. Now, what margin for error either side of the 100,000 figure would you take "approximately" to mean?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

As you well know Harry the quote is here. The quote is lifted from an article written by Professor Tomasz Strzembosz the link which I provided earlier and it is here: yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205416.pdf

The quote is on page 4 of the article and the quote is properly referenced at the foot of page 4 giving the book title, publisher and page number. This is common practice in academic studies Harry, accepted by every university around the world, but for some reason it's not good enough for you, the reason being that you are unable to prove your claim the Gross was quoted out of context or that he didn't even write it.

You were quite happy to post a link to Israel Gutman's response and critique to Professor Strembosz's article,

yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%204797.pdf

which was first written in Polish and translated into English yet you refuse to accept the words of Jan T Gross quoted by Professor Strembosz whose article was also translated by the same person who translated Gutman's article.

Like I said in a previous post, when you are so sure of yourself you very quickly provide links to back yourself up yet when you have been found out to be making statements you can't support you try to change the subject, you accuse people of lying and you resort to personal insults. It is a common trend ever since you first started posting here, don't you just love archives :)

I gave you a chance to give me your personal definition of "approximately", to set the parameters either side of the 100,000 figure you used about Jewish personnel in the Polish Army in 1939 but for some reason you're avoiding this simple request too. Why? Is it because you don't like arguing on solid ground, because you like to be able to change the goalposts when you have been caught out? Here it is again Harry


You don't say "around 100,000, you don't say "an estimated 100,000", you don't say "approximately 100,000" - that comes in a later post but then you say the approximate part is not your word but that of Yad Vashem - you say "the fact that 100,000 Jews were serving in the Polish army". I will accept your revised position of "approximately 100,000", after all when a man admits he is wrong we should be big enough give him credit for doing so, therefore I can see that you know your claim of "the fact that 100,000 Jews were serving in the Polish army" is wrong which is why you then further qualified the 100,000 figure as only being an approximation. So in order to take this debate further forward I politely asked you to set the parameters either side of this approximated figure of 100,000. Again, polite request, set the parameters either side of the 100,000. You can set the figures in 100s, 1000s or as a percentage, you choose. You first brought the figure of 100,000 and also then brought the word approximately so over to you once again Harry.

Genealogy / Are Silesians people German/Germanic? [178]

Silesia also extends into Czech territory too. Czech out the Wikipedia article on Silesia to get more background.

Travel / My holiday, Gdansk or Kaunus, Lithuania? Help me decide! [23]

It's a little bit more than one street to be fair, I asume you mean Vilnius Gatve, there's the square around the town hall which Vilnius Gatve leads to, Muitines Gatve leads from the other corner of the square into Kurpiu Gatve and both these streets are quite pleasant and of course thhere are a few smaller streets connecting them with Vilnius Gatve. If you walk from the bottom of the square past the seminary you come to what's left of the medieaval fortifications overlooking the river and of course there is a big, dilapidated brick cathedral there as well which looked like it was starting to be renovated when I was there last year. I agree it's not somewhere to base yourself for a few days. The only reason I was there was because Poland were playing a friendly with Lithuania and the only reason I'd go back would be if Poland played there again.

Law / How will a parking lot business do in Warsaw centrum? [6]

Do you mean central Warsaw? Or do you actually mean what is classed as Centrum ie the junction of Marsałkowska and Jerozolimskie? Either way, if you can find some empty land that is affordable to buy or rent just to turn into a car park I say good luck to you.

Travel / My holiday, Gdansk or Kaunus, Lithuania? Help me decide! [23]

The people I go to watch Poland with support many different clubs in Poland including Legia. Club allegiances are usually put to one side when you go to support Poland otherwise it would be chaos ;D

It is a shame about that cathedral considering the one at the other end of the town looks so good.



A pity the area of the town around here is such a mess.

Law / How will a parking lot business do in Warsaw centrum? [6]

Only open land I know of that close to Centrum is at the junction of JP2 and Jerozolimskie close to Śródmieście WKD and as far as I know it's used for car parking at the moment.

Off-Topic / The West Highland Way - 96 miles through some of Scotland most beautiful routes. [28]

I walked that a few years ago with my girl friend. We carried our stuff the first two days but after nearly killing ourselves walking up Conic Hill we decided to send our stuff on ahead using a bag carrier service. I'd love to do it again.

Life / Wroclaw Stadium and the Queen gig. [20]


When they reformed a few years ago with Paul Rogers as singer they were universally slated by the music press and a lot of die hard Queen fans. I saw them tour with Paul Rogers and I really enjoyed the gig as did most of the people there.

The problem is that Freddy was such an iconic figure that it would be impossible to replace him on a full time basis but Queen wasn't just Freddy, there were three other people in the band and they still have to earn a living. They can probably earn more money touring as Queen than they can doing other projects so I have no problem with them touring with another vocalist just as long as they don't turn into Freddy immitators, they have to be their own person.

Life / The Polish Wedding - What is it Like in Poland? [338]


Depends on how well you know them and what you'd be prepared to spend on a present if you were to buy one and obviously what you can afford. At the end of the day it's your gift and it should be private between you and the bride & groom so as long as you're not too stingy or over generous then no one else should know how much you gave them.

There's a thread here related to what you just asked. Have a read and see if that helps
polishforums.com/society-culture-38/wedding-present-polish-friends-much-money-should-give-53530

News / What really happened at the Krakow restaurant? [53]


Unfortunately this happens in a lot of places in the world and not just Poland but hey, don't let that stop the chance to do a bit more Pole bashing.

Genealogy / Common surnames in Poland NOT of Polish origin ? [87]

One of the most well known must be Miller. I don't know how prevalent the name is in Poland but it's definitely not of Polish origin.