News / Poland and USA vs Iran and the EU [38]


Funny that, isn't it, since Poland is offering to pay the USA for the permanent base anyway. So the ultimatum is 'pay the Jews, then you can pay for the US to have a permanent base here'. Great deal.

I get why Poland want to keep good relations with America, but they have no beef with Iran and hosting this was a bad move.

News / PO to boycott TVP in Poland [37]


Well not sure about people within PiS but certainly some PiS voters, I have to admit. Have you seen his tweets? He is so caught up in how amazing he believes he has made the channel, constantly bragging about how high the ratings are, that it is beginning to get very annoying. And yes, even PiS supporters, or certainly people on the right who are general for PiS over PO or Nowoczesna, have noticed the over the top bias in TVP. I think it's less the attacking of the opposition and more the 'look how great PiS is' and 'look how great we are' stuff that is getting beyond the pale. Of course, the PO run TVP for 8 years was biased and full of lies, but the point is, the PiS one aint any better.

Life / Things that annoy you in Poland. [114]

This isn't to degrade Poland, it's just something very annoying. I get the feeling I have mentioned it before, but even so, I'll say it again.

The customer service, particularly in shops, is non existent. They don't say good morning/afternoon. They don't smile. But the one that really annoys me, if you don't have the exact right amount of money, they ask you if you can provide it [and often not politely], like it's your problem they haven't prepared with change in the till, or they just can't be bothered to fish it out.

I've never been in any other country where you buy something, give money and then have an issue because they don't have change. In Poland they do this in big stores, where you'd think they should have a till full of change prepared, and privately owned little ones, where rather than being happy a customer is buying something from them and helping their business make money, they make you feel like it's your fault for not preparing and having the exact right amount. It's terrible.

Life / Things that annoy you in Poland. [114]

Merged:

Things that annoy you in Poland/in Polish people

I have a feeling we had a thread like this somewhere, but finding it is too much of a task for me. Is there a mod who could point me to that thread, as I have just thought of something that annoys me a lot in Poland. Or does such a thread not actually exist? If so, I will write it in here.

News / How strongly are Poles sure that president Duda defend Poland's interests ? [251]

Yeah sure, bring Komorowski back. Or even better still, how about a president from the post communist SLD? I'm sure they would be positive about Russia.

Duda is far from perfect, but a big improvement on the previous president.

News / How strongly are Poles sure that president Duda defend Poland's interests ? [251]

Why on earth should the Polish president, Polish government or Poland in general be positive about Russia? Seriously, give me one good reason. One example of something positive Russia did towards Poland. Because I can give you many examples of negatives things they did.


Understatement

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Yep. I would also avoid using terminology like 'responsible for.' Certain Polish people were not responsible for the holocaust. I mean If the Germans had not invaded Poland, there would be no holocaust and no opportunity for these people to do what they did.

I think a more accurate thing to say would be 'some Polish people had a role in the holocaust.' Of course, the same could be said for some Jewish people, but I won't get in to that, as I now that you are not likely to admit it.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Jews generally believe most people in the world don't tolerate them. They call it antisemitism, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with religion.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

^ Complete BS

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Right, so why keep saying Poland when talking about responsibility? Why not say 'some Polish people?'

As for the 'what is Jewish?' question being debated above, Jewish can be a religion or ethnicity/race. It can be one of the other or it can be both. Most American Jews for instance, do not identify themselves as religious Jews, but also aren't Israelis, they are Americans. Yet they still identify as Jews though, ethnically. I don't know why every time you say Jewish, some people immediately think you are bringing religion in to the discussion.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Here is my post

What is revisionist about this? There was a lot of pressure on Poland from both Israel and the USA to scrap the IPN law. Fact. They didn't scrap it, but they modified it, taking out the criminalisation aspect. Fact. I don't think you understand what has been going on if you think this is revisionist.

The only part I did not mention yet, was that the Israeli and Polish prime ministers made a joint statement about what took place during the Holocaust. This joint statement has already been criticised by Israeli minister of education Naftali Bennett, opposition leader Yair Lapid and the Israeli media, for being 'too lenient' on Poland and their role in the Holocaust. Again fact. Check the Israeli media if you don't believe me.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@Lyzko
What are you talking about? I just wrote what happened. Did I say 'this proves Poland is in the hands of Jews' or something similar? My post was factual.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Oh yeah, this happened last week but I suppose it should be mentioned here, as this whole thread was about it.

On Wednesday last week, after a lot of pressure, the Polish government changed the IPN law and took out the criminal charges part. Now it will not be a criminal offence to say Polish death camps or that Poland was responsible for the holocaust.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@delph

Agreed. They didn't have a leg to stand on with that case and only embarrassed themselves by pursuing it.

UK, Ireland / Posting mail from Poland to the UK [26]

It's weird you had to wait 6 weeks for it to be shipped. Unless they made it clear that it could take that long before they send it, because they didn't have it in stock?

It can take a while. I have been shocked sometimes at how long it takes a normal letter to get from Poland to the UK. Often more than a week, sometimes close to two weeks.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I agree with dolno, this is mostly BS anti-Polish propaganda pushed far more by left-wing Gazeta Wyborcza reading Jews than right-wing ones, or at the very least it's a major exaggeration.

How many years is it that Jews have lived in Poland now? 800? Yet the antisemitism is so bad that they fear revealing their Jewishness? But they still decide to stay. Give me a break.

How about they try living in Germany or France to see what real 'fear for you life' antisemitism is like on a daily basis.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Does Israel also have the right to bulldoze women who stand in front of homes trying to stop them from being demolished? Because they've done that.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

By the way, slightly off topic but the S.447 act was signed by Trump yesterday

foxnews.com/world/2018/05/10/trump-signs-holocaust-property-law-that-has-angered-poland.html

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Yep, if the Germans hadn't have invaded then none of these other things would have happened. The stuff that spilled out from there is a consequence of the initial invasion. We should acknowledge the various other incidents that took place, remember them and condemn them where appropriate, but also always remember who the main perpetrators were.

This is the main issue Poles have really Lyzko. You'll find very few Polish people who won't admit that some of their fellow citizens behaved badly during the war, but it's this disturbing push, by some, to try and pass collective guilt on to Poland for the Holocaust, that angers people.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


That's a little different. The modern day 'Europeanised' USA was basically founded upon the slaughter of Native Americans, so that's where your or others' guilt might come from, even though personally I don't see why you should feel guilty for it, but it's up to you.

Poland wasn't founded on the slaughter of Jewish people, nor did the Polish state at the any point decide to wipe out Jews [like the German state did]. The criminal acts that were committed against Jews were personal decisions made by certain Polish citizens, who should be condemned for what they did. Feeling guilty for what they did however doesn't come in to play, much like you shouldn't feel guilty if some white supremacists in America decide to kill some black people. You would most probably be shocked by such an incident and I assume you would condemn it, but why should you feel guilt for something you didn't do?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Well she is a historian, yet whenever she uncovers an uncomfortable truth for Jewish people, she is immediately lambasted as an antisemite. What are you thoughts on her?

By the way, to comment on your earlier point about Kielce and Jedwabne shaming the Polish nation - I disagree. They shame those who were the culprits. No nation should be held responsible for the acts of some bad citizens.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

You mean like Ewa Kurek?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Haha. Good one.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Interesting statistic in this article

haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-how-american-jews-lost-their-religion-and-found-their-identity-1.6056319

Study of American Jews on what it means to be Jewish [From Pew research done a few years ago].

62% say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture
73% say being Jewish is mainly remembering the Holocaust

only 15% said being Jewish was mainly a matter of religion

So for most American Jews, who have lost their faith, what else do they have to identify themselves as Jewish, other than constantly talking about the Holocaust?

Interestingly in the famous 'Defamation' documentary, one rabbi [in Russia I think] who was interviewed, said religious Orthodox Jews don't talk that much about the Holocaust. It isn't part of their identity of being Jewish. He said it is mainly those Jews who have no faith who keep on bringing it up. Many religious Jews don't need to keep mentioning the Holocaust to remind themselves who they are. Of course, I'm sure they remember it and see it as a terrible tragedy, but for them the Biblical sense of being Jewish is much more important and defines their identity, rather than an attempted genocide.

The problem with this way of thinking of course, is that many of them think they are chosen and non-Jews are worse than them, but that is another issue.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Might not be a bad idea to put Szydlo in there. It would certainly give people disgruntled with Duda, who could never bring themselves to vote for Tusk, a serious candidate to vote for.


Yes he is.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


True and that's why they will probably end up voting for PiS, despite their grievances.

From what I'm seeing, more of them seem angry at Duda than PiS. I have seen and heard many comments from people about how Duda is a traitor and they won't vote for him again.

But again, when it comes to the presidential elections, if the only viable opponent to Duda is Tusk or somebody from PO/Nowoczesna then they might be forced to vote for Duda just to keep them out.

I don't know how their minds work and whether they will use a Duda vote as a vote against the main opponent, or whether they are so fed up with Duda that they just won't vote for anybody, or they'll vote for a fringe right wing candidate with no realistic chance of winning, despite knowing that this could give Tusk and co a better chance of winning.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


I agree, many of the PiS base are already disgruntled over Macierewicz and Szydlo, and are becoming more and more upset with Duda over his original judicial reform veto and what they see as his grovelling stance to Israel, such as his most recent lack of reaction to president Rivlin's comments about Poland and Polish people also being responsible for the Holocaust or how Poland was fertile land for the Nazis to go ahead with the Holocaust. Heck, he's even being nicknamed Andrzej Juda.


The point is, 10% of the electorate are not fascists. It was insulting for Gebert to say such a thing. There are actually very few fascists around in Poland. It's as marginal as a handful of people celebrating Hitler's birthday in the woods.

Nationalists however, there are a few more of, although I still wouldn't say anywhere near as much as 10%, and different nationalists define themselves differently [many for example, have no issue with people of different ethnicities in Poland as long as they accept a Polish cultural and traditional way of life]. It is true though, that some of the actions [or lack of them] by PiS and Duda may turn them away. Some of them probably didn't vote for PiS and Duda in the 1st place though, so PiS won't lose out if they don't vote again, but some did vote for them as their only hope of at least getting rid of PO, but now they're beginning to feel tricked and might not vote for them again. Even if it's a few percent, this could, as you say, make a difference.

PiS have definitely put themselves in a difficult situation with this IPN law. Right now they seem to be pissing off both the USA and the Jews, as well as the hard right in Poland and heck, not even just the hard right, but even soft right traditional PiS supporters, who are also beginning to see them as weak.

It's the worst possible scenario, although strangely, if they can be trusted, most polls still have them as leading comfortably.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


I'm not sure if this is the article, as it was published a few weeks after the issue of the Newsweek magazine cover you posted, but it could well be, as it's about whether Poland did or did not take part in the Holocaust, so they might have put it online later.

newsweek.com/2018/05/04/polands-legacy-ashes-902185.html

Funny how they found just the right people to quote, to push their agenda that Poland is partially guilty of the Holocaust. They talk to Konstanty Gebert [Gazeta Wyborcza] and quote the likes of Gross and Grabowski.

In one part of the piece, Jewish journalist and activist Gebert goes as far as to say 'If the government retreats [on the IPN law], it stands to lose the fascist vote - that is some 10 percent of the electorate.'

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]


Very possibly. Another reason why this law is beginning to look more and more useless - too many people are exempt from it.