Language / Polish people: did you struggle learning English - differences between both languages [75]


I fully agree with this type of analogy.

English speakers are probably unaware that using articles might be a problem to anyone. Likewise, Polish speakers are unaware that using the proper aspect of a verb might be in any way problematic (I myself only realised that after having read posts from learners of Polish on this forum).


Indeed, it is a striking example of a change in meaning. So striking that in Polish you would have to use two different nouns to translate both phrases: the former [in the office] should be rendered 'biuro', whereas the latter [in office] will require a noun like 'stanowisko'.

UK, Ireland / Poles living in the UK returning home or not? [63]

Four million unemployed people in the UK? That reminds me of a Mrs. Tharcher's "party political broadcast" in the satirical Weekending programme on BBC4 in 1981:

- "We never said things would be easy. Of course, we never said we'd cause a recession and three million unemployed! [...] But look, let's not kid ourselves; we're all in the same boat - the Titanic!"

And it seems the record has been improved of one million by now! So let's not kid ourselves. The Polish should leave the sinking boat of Britain - the Titanic, as the Weekending Mrs T. bluntly put it some 30 years ago... and go back home!

[- "We in the Conservative Party may be wrong... but we are wrong with so much more courage that any other party. Bravery is a great attribute and thank God my ministers don't have it!"]

News / Komorowski, acting president, is a shower! [51]


You are forgetting that there are two rounds of presidential election in Poland. What you say is true of the second round, but in the first round you may vote with your heart, with no need to bother about curbing anyone.

Life / Warsaw public transport is not so bad at all [14]


Do you think Jews/Freemasons/Serbs/Germans use the metro in Warsaw as well? I think Jews are very rich, so they take taxis; Freemasons do not move at all - they only conspire in their dens; don't know about Serbs; Germans prefer trams and buses.

Life / Warsaw public transport is not so bad at all [14]

I'm sure it will take many decades to achieve that. As you probably know, Jews and Freemasons conspire against it all the time, Germans do not send enough of Riechseuros to finance it, and Serbs... what the hell Serbs are doing to slow it down?

Travel / Ultra cheap trains in Polish trains [8]

You should explain what kind of tariff it was. I went to Kraków by train about three months ago and I paid 100 zł each way.

News / Poland uninterested in EU reform [5]


I think this statement needs some clarifacation. It sounds as if Danuta Huebner has no competence at all, but got the job by pure chance.


Does that mean the UK prime minister earns so little, or the top 2000 EU official earn so much? Could you give any figures?

Language / Difference between Polska & Polsce? [26]


I don't think anyone would be interested.

Anyway, either of you is wrong here. In the expression "w Polsce", it is not celownik which is being used, it is the case called miejscownik (locative). Actually, the celownik is the same as the miejscownik in the case of the noun 'Polska'. To detect which case is being used in 'w Polsce' you have to replace 'Polska' with another noun for which both cases take different forms, for example - Liban: 'przyglądam się Libanowi' (celownik) versus 'Byłem w Libanie' (miejscownik).

Language / Difference between Polska & Polsce? [26]


Still, your explanation was incomplete as you should have said "whilst 'Polsce' is celownik and miejscownik'. In my view you should have added that as the original poster's examples in his next questions were:


and

Language / to go s/where [13]


This has been disscused countless times on the PF. For the sake of clarity, I suggest to treat 'oboje' as the basic form which applies to adult couples of both sexes, to couples of children and to the nouns without the plural form (skrzypce, drzwi, sanie etc.). Then, if you talk about men, you should think of the 'obaj' form (obaj żołnierze, obaj chłopcy); if you think about masculine nouns except men and neutral nouns, you should choose the form 'oba' (oba psy, oba słonie, oba biurka, oba pokoje, oba okna); if you talk about feminine nouns you should use 'obie' (obie panie, obie żyrafy, obie szafy).

Language / Ile by nie było to i tak jest za mało [26]

Will adding the direct object 'it=to' (in genetive 'tego') make things clearer for you?

Ile by [tego] nie było, to i tak jest [tego] za mało.

An assumptive or understood direct object is present in the structure of this sentence.

Language / Ile by nie było to i tak jest za mało [26]

Now I see what you mean. As your initial translation ("No matter how much, it's always too little") renders the sense of this sentence perfectly, the problem was why this particular choice of words in Polish.

First of all, leaving out the negation particle nie from this sentence doesn't change the meaning of it at all. The negation particle "nie" strenghtens the initial clause and also gives a better vocal rythm to the entire phrase (notice the negation in the English clause as well!).

The particle by is a flying one, so you might not have been able to assign it instantly to the verb było (Ile tego nie byłoby, ...).

"To i tak" can also be ommitted, so the phrase may sound: Ile by nie było, jest (or: będzie) tego za mało. "To i tak (or: "i tak" alone) strenghtens the final clause quite remarkably.

Another form of this sentence might be: 'Choćby nie wiem ile by tego było, to i tak będzie za mało'. Here the negation particle 'nie' moves onto the verb "wiedzieć".

Now I have another explanation. What makes the sentence unclear for non-native speakers of Polish is the absence of the principal clause, whereas the subordinate clause is still there. In fact, this sentence should be: "Nieważne / nie ma znaczenia / Nie jest istotne [principal clause], ile by było [subordinate clause], i tak jest za mało."

The first clause matches the English "No matter, ...", while the second clause matches the English "... , how much (it is), ". With the disappearance of the first clause, the sense may indeed seem unclear. The missing principal cause is like a "black hole" devouring the sense of the phrase in the eyes of a foreign speaker. We, the native speakers of Polish, having been used to such "black holes", don't even notice they are there which is why I was't able to tell the sensible explanation at once.

By explaining it this way, the abundant "nie" in the existing subordinate clause can easily be re-found in the "nie" of the non-existing (or understood) principal clause:

Nie jest istotne, ile by było, i tak jest za mało ---> [...], Ile by nie było, to i tak jest za mało.

In fact, the nie of the subordinate clause is the only trace of the entire principal clause which has dissappeared. This is exactly the same "nie" which can be found in the English principal clause "No matter how much it is, ..." of your translation.

----------------
Thanks for your inquisitive questions that made me realize the existence of these truly hidden phrases in the Polish language.

Language / Ile by nie było to i tak jest za mało [26]

1. Your statement about learning Polish sounds petty desperate.
2. Are you totally immersed in the language or do you constantly switch from English (or Swedish) to Polish? Total immersion lasting at least for half a year (I suppose you live in Poland now) without any (or as little as possible) interference from another language could be vital for you. The costant changing of languages may be quite "destructive" for your Polish. I am able to immerse myself into English within two hours at an international confrence at Brussels, while I was not able to immerse into it during a three-week long stay in England with my wife because of the need to translate into Polish for her, thus the need to change languages constantly.

3.


Yes, it would, but "Ile nie byłoby, jest [preferably: będzie] za mało" will sound much better.

Language / Ile by nie było to i tak jest za mało [26]


That's not bad, isn't it ...


In my view, you should try to take a course in phonetics or at least study a book on Polish phonetics (I one had one titled "Fonologia i fonetyka polska") where you can read the formal descriptions of numerous Polish consonants (s, c, ś, ć, sz, cz, dz, dż, dź, szcz, z, ż, ź) and how to distinguish between them. Then, you should have an opportunity to first listen to various Polish dialogs several times before following them in reading the transcripts of the same dialogs.

Language / Can you recognise the nationality of foreign Polish speakers by their accent? [43]


There is something in it. Having followed the programme "Europa da się lubić" on Polish TV presenting European people of different nationalities for several months, I could easily tell who was French and who was German, but the English-speaking Brits tended to have some "unspecified" accent while speaking Polish. Contrary to the Brits, it is easy to tell who is American.

Language / będzie potrafił? [34]


I would agree with that. In the past tense the sentence "Potrafiłem wejść na drzewo" sounds to me as stating a completed action. Curiously enough, the phrase "Będę potrafił wejść na drzewo" sounds to me as such as well, although formally the verb takes the imperfective aspect.

Language / będzie potrafił? [34]

The situation around the verb potrafić is rather complex. Here what the linguistic advisor at PWN says about it:
------------------------------
Question: Dlaczego w Wielkim słowniku poprawnej polszczyzny PWN hasło potrafić jest opatrzone dwoma kwalifikatorami: dk. albo ndk.? Czy to możliwe, by jeden czasownik miał dwa aspekty? Oraz dlaczego nie zaleca się analitycznej formy czasu przyszłego: będę potrafił?

Answer: "Potrafić" to właściwie czasownik dokonany, „Nie wiem, czy potrafię” znaczy 'Nie wiem, czy mi się uda'. Jako wyłącznie dokonany figuruje on w słowniku Lindego (jego niedokonany odpowiednik podany tam to "potrafiać", dziś nie używany). W słowniku Doroszewskiego informacja o aspekcie czasownika potrafić ma postać „dk (i ndk)” i zasadniczo w takim kształcie można by ją powtarzać do dziś. Zdania takie ja przytoczone na początku tej porady można wprawdzie interpretować współcześnie na dwa sposoby, jako zawierające czasownik dokonany albo niedokonany, ale imiesłów przymiotnikowy czynny (potrafiący) i imiesłów przysłówkowy współczesny (potrafiąc) rażą nieporadnością, choć przecież formy takie są właściwe czasownikom niedokonanym. Także czas przyszły złożony, właściwy czasownikom niedokonanym, budzi wątpliwości [tzn. forma "będę potrafił - przypis mój], nie bez powodu więc ostrzega przed nimi słownik poprawnej polszczyzny. Dla równowagi można jednak zanotować, że imiesłowu potrafiwszy też nie ma w użyciu, choć tego rodzaju imiesłowy, tzw. przysłówkowe uprzednie, są właściwe czasownikom dokonanym.

Czasowników dwuaspektowych w polszczyźnie jest sporo, ale są to przeważnie wyrazy obcego pochodzenia (np. aresztować, ekspediować), a potrafić jest na ich tle wyjątkiem. Innym rodzimym wyjątkiem jest cisnąć, najpierw używane w znaczeniu 'uwierać', a potem też 'rzucić', tu jednak, jak widać, z różnicą aspektu związana jest wyraźnie różnica znaczenia, podczas gdy w wypadku czasownika potrafić różnica znaczeń jest systemowa i przewidywalna, paralelna do różnicy aspektów.

— Mirosław Bańko, PWN

Language / będzie potrafił? [34]

YES! (That's exactly what the above description from the PWN site says; from, as Polonius3 puts it, "purely perfective to perfectvie or imperfective depending on context".)

News / Komorowski - Russian stooge, traitor background [42]

While Bronek Komorowski's nobel family was persecuted because of their origin (they were deprived of their land and home, I think), the Kaczyński family were pretty well-off in the communist times. Who told you to gossip this nonsense of yours, Varsovian?

News / Komorowski - Russian stooge, traitor background [42]


Actually, I wouldn't think so. While I classify Varsovian's attempt to discredit Komorowski as a complete nonsense, I'd say that the Kaczyński's case seems plausible. The commies would not necessarily persecute an "ordinary" fighter of the AK unless he was an "ideologist", especially after the end of the war. Of course, those people would not go around telling everyone "I was in the AK and I was risking my life for the cause of an independent Poland". They kept silent and the bravery of those people had never been acknowledged by the vassal state of the People's Republic of Poland.

Contrary to that, the "władza ludowa" or the communist regime was allergic to the social class of land owners and capital owners, that is "zadowolonych właścicieli pałaców, banków i brylantów" (as the poet Julian Tuwim so aptly put it in his pre-war poem "Kwiaty polskie"), and it was Bronisław Komorowski's family who fell victim of that stance having lived in near-starvation for many years after the Soviets brought "independence" to Poland.

Language / Ile by nie było to i tak jest za mało [26]



You've made a sound diagnosis, indeed. How to find a suitable remedy?

If I were your doctor, I'd advise you that overcoming your main problem as you've described it is absolutely essential if you want to progress any further. You should absolutely abandon the habit of translating words into Polish (or whatever foreign language you learn). Never ever translate any words when you or listen to people or speak to them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop learning Polish beyond what you've learnt already and start to eradicate this habit in you. The best way to achieve this is creating links (in your mind) between the imagination of an object or an action and the sounds or graphs which represent them. When you hear, read or speak the word "gruszka", you imagine the fruit as it is, not even trying to recall the English or Swedish equivalent in your mind. You just don't remember a name for it in another language. Similarly, if you hear "pływać", you imagine the action in progress, without any reference to the verbs that describe this action in other languages.

This method needs time and perseverence. It is a training that teaches you to develop a habit to automatically assign a real object or action to its symbolic (or abstract) representation of it in a given language. Likewise, you may treat declined nouns as seperate "entities" which are represented by individual words, e.g. "w domu" means you are in a place where you live, whereas "dom" represents a building which may be your home or may be a building in a street or in a country. This way you don't have to bother which case "w domu" is (by the way, I think it is the way native speakers acquire their command of cases). Giving up your native language as an intermadiary between the real world and the Polish language spares you time and effort, and removes an obstacle that stops you from making any real progress.

Buy yourself a good monolingual dictionary of Polish. For a time being, stop using any bilingual ones.

All the other shortcomings of yours in mastering Polish are weak in face of your main problem, so I won't be commenting on them at the moment.

Language / będzie potrafił? [34]


I'm not trying to convince you. I'm quoting an expert who says the verb "potrafić" is marked in modern dictionaries as having two aspects :perfective and imperfective. Actually, you are taking out of the expert's opinion statements which favor your one-sided view that the verb is purely imperfective,


while leaving out bits that don't:


Also, the Linde dictionary is quoted as a historical source only, showing the past state of affairs, and no one is trying to impose on anyone the past usages of this dictionary.

I'll try to illustrate the expert's view that the verb still has a distinctly perfective character in modern Polish when I have some more free time. Undoubtedely, the verb has evolved into one having distinctly imperfective features as well, but that doesn't mean we can classify it in such a bold way as you do.

Real Estate / Poland: the building boom goes on [28]


Don't be so optipistic, David. Don't look at the present economic situation, but look ahead what may happen in about three years. Public finances of Poland are pretty much in the same state now as Spain's were three years ago. Of course, we don't have one million newly-build unsold homes, but our public deficit is quite high and growing. Even in the years of the greatest prosperity we run a budget deficit, while Spain had not. The cost of servicing the debt was and is much lower in the case of Spain as they enjoy lower interest rates of the eurozone, than it is in the case of Poland since we don't have the euro. A decent curb on public deficit looks pretty unlikely as a parliamentary election is due next year in Poland and politictians bid high in their promises.

History / Battle of Warsaw movie in production [24]


I'm afraid I have to defend Harry here. There are a lot of anti-racist Polish people here on the PF; their racism may may lie in the genes as well (scientific evidence emerges slowly to confirm this theory). Harry has the right to express his anti-Polish views which are not racist in nature at all. Harry loves to indulge himself in manipulation, ignores those bits of information that don't fit his theories, so he is a real challenge to all those who try to contradict him. He pretends to command profound historical knowledge in certain fields which in reality is not profound. Unfortunately, his fields of interest are not the same as mine; if they were, I'd be happy to challenge him ...

News / Who are you voting for in the 2010 Poland's presidential elections and why? [82]

Thread attached on merging:
Clairvoyant Krzysztof Jackowski tells the political future of Poland

Krzysztof Jackowski has no doubts that the winner of the 2010 presidential election in Poland will be Komorowski. But he says that this election will be the beginning of the end of Platforma Obywatelska.

In December 2009 he said in an interview for TVN that the two main candidates for the election "will not be those whose names are heard most often".

This was judged almost absurd at the time when the two most probable candidates were Donald Tusk and Lech Kaczyński.

In February 2010 the clairvoyant was visited by Andrzej Lepper who wanted to know if the winner o the election would be Lech Kaczyński. "I told him of my vision of the acting president as a lying and sleeping man". Jackowski says he was indicating a crash of a plane or planes over Ukraine in the not-too-distant future as early as in 2009.

The clairvoyant says that "two things having an unfavorable impact on the Polish economy will happen in the second half of 2010". Also, the condition of the zloty will not be good. As a result, the PO will loose support of the voters and Jarosław Kaczyński will strengthen considerably his position as leader of the opposition.

News / Who are you voting for in the 2010 Poland's presidential elections and why? [82]

Just as you, MareGaea, I am deeply sceptical about paranormal phenomena. I usually dismiss them, never read any horoscopes and never believe people who say having seen ghosts. Yet Jackowski is different. He is not the one receiving "patients" and telling them their future and fate for money. He is known in this country for having cooperating with the police several times in hopeless cases of finding missing bodies of victims. The police would not officially confirm to the press and other media his successes in giving them most accurate clues as to where the bodies were, yet he says he collects official acknowledgements from them he demands and receives from the police after each case.

He says he can usually "operate" after having been given a belonging of the victim or a photograph of him/her. He maintains that every living soul leaves "traces" on objects they touch which he is able to "see", and that those traces are somehow "linked" to the victim after their death. He also says that many of his visions are "wrong", but much more of them are accurate.

News / Who are you voting for in the 2010 Poland's presidential elections and why? [82]

Notice that he was telling of a plane crash over Ukraine, while the presidential plane crashed over Russia. He could easily walk out of court acquitted ...

Po polsku / Patrzenie na ręce - dyskusja [53]


Kto to właściwie jest ten Harry? Czy ktoś kiedyś go oglądał w realu? Rzecz jasna znam jego posty, z których wynika dokładnie to co napisał frd, a ponadto wynika też że Harry bardzo dobrze w Polsce zarabia, "prawie" zna brytyjskiego następcę tronu księcia Karola, nauczał onegdaj języka angielskiego w naszym pięknym kraju nad Wisłą, oraz stołuje się w drogich lokalach stolicy, np. w restauracjach hotelu Sheraton i Bristol.

Sądzę, że jego postawa ma głębokie psychologiczne korzenie: bądź to ogólnoosobowościowe, bądź to tkwiące w jakimś incydentalnym jednostkowym wydarzeniu, które musiało go bardzo głęboko zranić i spowodować niegasnący żal do Polski, objawiający się najczęściej podważaniem waleczności i prawdomówności Polaków.

Law / Banking tax Procedure in Poland [14]

Basically, they work in the same way as do foreign banks. About 80% of the banking sector in Poland has been owned by foreign companies since 1990, this resulting in modern procedures having been implemented into a once old-fashion sector.

Language / Declining Polish acronyms [4]

This could be tricky, but I think the phonological rule given by Alex generally applies.

We can treat the abbreviation PZPR as both masculine and feminine, but when we use yet another noun specifying it in the same sentence, we tend to put forward its identity as described by the feminine noun "partia" inside the acronym, for example: 'PZPR była partią dyktatury proletariatu'.

PO and PiS are interesting. You never hear PO refered to as a masculine acronym. Phonologically, the acronim is of neutral gender, so you might expect to hear "PO było" (as in 'okno było'). Actually, you never hear it as such and it is always treated as a feminine acronym.

PiS is of neutral gender when you speak out the full name, eg. "Prawo i Sprawiedliwość wystawiło Jarosława K. jako kandydata w wyborach na prezydenta". 'Prawo' is neutral and 'sprawiedliwość' is feminine and blind, yet the first noun is gramatically dominant. Using the acronym, I would say 'PiS wystawił' (masculine) or 'PiS wystawiło Jarosława K. w wyborach'.