Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


That's a very good point Ziemowit and you're close enough to the mark as indeed that's often the case in Hiberno-English. 'Oftentimes' is not so much incorrect as an archaism, many of which are still found in Irish speech. You know how the word 'oft' was used and sometimes expressed as 'oft times'. It morphed into 'often times' and the Irish continued using it in that form.


Indeed and twas 'herself' if it be pleasin' you kind sir and me a lovely colleen and all and all.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Lyzko I really must share this with you. When I was in secondary school in Ireland I had a wonderful English teacher, beloved by us all, a great lady with a very, dry sardonic outlook on life. There were some aspects of Hiberno-English which really galled her and 'often times' was on of her pet hates. Anyway I well remember the day she informed us 'Girls, Irish people have a regrettable tendency to use the expression 'often times'. This is incorrect. The word 'often' stands alone and does not require the addition of 'times' as time is implied in itself by the use of the word 'often'. Lyzko, do you have Irish blood by any chance......

UK, Ireland / British guy refused work because of Polish workers [39]


Yosemite you have to look at things in context. Communism or really to be more accurate Stalinism was a profound evil that did damage on an epic scale not just to Poland but to a huge chunk of Europe. It was far worse in my view than WWII because it continued for fifty years. Whilst other European countries had the luxury of rejuvenating and rebuilding themselves, creating the old EEC etc, strengthening their economies, developing themselves, the population of countries under Soviet domination suffered greatly. We're talking about billions of lives adversely affected over those generations, if you include the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries. You mentioned the German economy. Think about the difference between the Federal Republic and the Democratic Republic during those years........Polish peoples' values system is not the Polish values system that existed for centuries. That was destroyed by communism.


Yes, they're not big on the social graces.


They are indeed appalling drivers.


I don't think they believe themselves to be superior but I do think they believe that Brits perceive them as inferior. And of course there's a certain measure of resentment and emotional turmoil that colours their perception of life, because they chose to leave their own country purely for economic reasons. Many of them would basically prefer to be in their own land but they're not prepared to go back there and live in reduced circumstances.


No, it's a mis-quote. I beg your pardon. My error. Much of a muchness though and wouldn't change my view.


You may think you are, but it's not just about reading history books you know. I don't think you are truly 'aware' in the sense of understanding the position of privilege your country's history places you in. There are very few countries in the modern world Yosemite who have been free of invasions by foreign armies for the span of a thousand years. Also as a Brit, in any country in the world that you emigrate to, you will be perceived and treated differently, than an immigrant from 'Eastern Europe'. Most of the time it will be to your advantage to be British. As Jack Dee the comedian once said 'You don't show officials a British passport, you slap them with it and say 'Out of my way Johnny Foreigner, I'm British'.


Well that's fine. Employ them and stop getting yourself all worked up over Poles whom you don't have to have anything to do with if you don't want to.

UK, Ireland / British guy refused work because of Polish workers [39]


Could that be a legacy of Communism? There was no way you could be fired under that system, no matter how bad a job you did. My husband says there were loads of guys who were heavy drinkers and went AWOL for weeks and even months at a time and then returned to their jobs. The most that might happen is that you'd be moved to another employer. Also under Communism there were no tangible rewards for hard work, no improvements in your material situation, no promotion, no pay increases, no building yourself up professionally, no chance to start your own business etc.

I wouldn't agree that Poles have no work ethic. It's true of some Poles, but probably more of Poles in Poland than abroad. Like most immigrants they work pretty hard. In Poland I think there is quite a high level of incompetence and 'coasting' but you know it's a post-communist society, still in recovery. Who knows what the future holds.


Cultural thing. Awful bunch of hypochondriacs. When I first lived with my husband, he used to report on the state of his mental and physical wellbeing every morning - it cracked me up. I joked that we should have a chart hanging at the end of the bed. But they can be trained out of this Yosemite, take my word for it!


Agree 100%.


It starts with the education system. Polish schools still rely a lot on rote learning, memorising, ticking boxes in multiple choice questions etc rather than any form of independent thinking. That's not a problem only in Poland. There are far too many countries where education consists of learning to follow instructions. As for the workplace, Husband (the source of all wisdom!) says that even today, in some Polish companies run along old strictly hierarchical lines, you're not encouraged to have ideas or show initiative. Management generally don't like it. If you're too much of an innovator it can work against you rather than for you.


Yes Adolf.


Read 'The Polish Way' by Adam Zamoyski (sic). I'm afraid that's the worst kind of British ignorance/arrogance, which thankfully is rare enough.


Enjoying a thousand years of peace at home without being invaded gives a country a chance to build an economy. Also of course, colonising other lands, taking their crops, their minerals, engaging in the slave trade, smuggling the tea plant from China and planting it in one of your colonies etc. All that contributes to a nice healthy bank balance.


Ja, Herr Ober Leutnant. Reasons for that too.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Interesting theory Ziemusz but Poggy is normally more careful about his articles. As he informed us that it's the least difficult aspect of English (not for Poles it isn't) he's honour bound to watch out for that. Of course if he's upset about being suspended that would explain it. You know how when Poles get 'upset' the articles etc tend to fly out the window. That's one area where you score very strongly with English and it demonstrates the quality of your language skills.You retain control of your syntax and grammar even when you're making a point you feel strongly about - or should I say 'a point about which you feel strongly!

Which leads me on to something that non-native speakers of English have a problem with - they simply can't grasp the fact that native speakers do not use text book grammar all the time, even people with a command of standard English like the majority of posters on this forum. Perfect grammar can sound unbearably stilted and we simply choose to use the vernacular. That's why the Poggies of this world get so hot under the collar and start lecturing us about tenses etc. People like yourself not only understand but enjoy that aspect of English and I think that's one the reasons you enjoy this forum, because it is English as it is spoken and not as an academic discipline.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Lycée - yippee!!

Thank you so much Ziemusz. Yo sho nuff is da man!

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Yes I wondered why he didn't use that facility but as I've often said I'm not a techno person so I thought maybe your keyboard had to be set up a certain way to avail of it. All I know is that my keyboard is just a regular 'English' one but you can do the Polish characters here on the forum using the Polish letters provided.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Everything I can to......do what exactly? By the way how come you don't have the right keyboard for writing Polish when you're Polish? Doesn't that make life difficult?

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]



Actually do you know what's really funny? We both spelled szkoła incorrectly!! Isn't life wonderful Poggy? One should never take it too seriously.

As to what they teach in Polish primary schools:


You don't learn a foreign language in Polish primary school to the level where you could study it at university. You do learn that in a secondary school.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Oh Poggy, Poggy, Poggy, my dear child. At a quick glance there are three verbs in Lyzko's sentence.


You mean skoła podstawowa?? That's weird. Don't you mean secondary school?


I don't. I don't generally comment on the language skills of anyone on this forum. Ironside and I are now established sparring partners and being Irish, I have to give him a bit of a roasting at times. His English is great. One of the interesting things about speakers of English as a second or foreign language is the variety of styles they have and as a matter of fact it's the flexibility of English that very much allows for the formal or informal style of expression. Ziemowit has a charming slightly old world way of talking, Ironside is much more colloquial and coloured by his years spent amongst native English speakers. If they were on horseback Ziemowit would be wearing hunting pinks and cantering, and Ironside would be bareback and galloping. As for yourself, you'd be red in the face, huffing and puffing, struggling with the reins as though they were a set of bagpipes and would probably would never make it out of the stable yard.


Oh I have plenty of that alright.


Whether you like it or not Poggy, an educated native speaker of English (or indeed any language) will be accepted as an 'expert' in its use.


Hackneyed old phrase that, but hey my man, bring it bro! Ah the language of the streets...........

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


I answered that question yesterday at 9.56, post no 1,472. You'll enjoy it. I wax lyrical about Jean Ferrat amongst others. Ah la belle France!
I didn't bother to mention Irish but of course I had fourteen years of that in school. I'm not at all fluent, very rusty I but I could have a bit of a chat as Gaeilge with correct grammar.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Are you for real?? You actually believe that nobody in Britain, Ireland, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc, can speak another language to your level of English. What an utterly daft thing to say - because do bear in mind you said 'any'. So let's just dismiss all those English speakers who've passed proficiency exams in other languages or who work as translators or interpreters. I know at least three English people with extremely fluent, idiomatic, colloquial French. One of them was educated at the Lycee (can't do the diacritics on this keyboard) in Notting Hill in London, lived in Switzerland for years and now lives in France. My own sister is a very fluent speaker (she lived in France) and her German is native level (she's a translator). I have two cousins working in Brussels and another living in Paris. How do you think they manage? 'Mais oui, ma petite, but bien sur their French or German weel be but oh so pedestrian compared to my fabulous Eeenglish which is of the most fantastique'. InPolska: specialised subject Me, Me, Me, Myself and my general Wonderfulness.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Ziemowit is Polish, Poggy (isn't that a lovely diminutive for your name? See, we have them in English too). I've had a few disagreements with Ziemikins over the last year but he's a thoroughly decent chap and I'm very fond of him.


Why would I think that? Answer on A4 lined paper by tea time Friday please, at least two pages.

By the way you're doing quite well with your English, far better than I ever will with Polish, I'm sure of that. You just have to work on your social skills now.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


This is part of your hoity-toity nonsense that doesn't endear you to other members. I think that's upper-intermediate to advanced level, is that right? Firstly I would say that you don't need that level to have an idea of how easy/difficult a language is. Once you get beyond basic level in any language, and you have a modicum of intelligence/common sense, you can see what's stretching before you. If it makes you feel as if you need to go and have a lie down then you know where you are in terms of difficulty.

All I can say is that I did French and German for five years each in secondary school and took Hons level exams in both so I suppose that's upper intermediate. I was reasonably proficient in French back then. I got an A. I still don't know how I managed that. I couldn't do it now that's for sure! I had a bit of a head start because my mother was quite a good French speaker. She was a member of the Alliance Francais (sorry can't do the cedilla or any accents on this keyboard), and I heard French at home from an early age, she loved French music. I used to sing along phonetically having no idea what the words meant but I loved the sounds and like most children picked up the accent quite easily. I still remember the songs and the words, could sing you a few bars now! Charles Trenet (il plu dans ma chambre, a very child-like little ditty,I liked that one!), Jean Ferrat ( 'Je n'ais pas le coeur a redirer, on ne voit pas le temps passer' I loved his voice though some people unkindly say that he sounds like a goat), Georges Moustaki (la fille aupres de qui je dort'. That's from Voyage). Do you know the songs InPolska? We could form a girl group with Roz!

German - I was quite good for the first three years and then I just lost interest and began to find it really tedious and I hated the grammar. The length of the sentences and the clauses was mind-numbing. I found German much more difficult than French and remember scarcely a word of it whereas with French I can still read an article in a newspaper for example and understand most of it. But to converse en Francais mais non, ma petite, c'est vraiment impossible!


Yes, as I said earlier, basic English is easy but as many of us agree, true mastery of the language is not.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Well I don't think it's half, InPolska, more like a third I'd think, but of course I know about the influence of French on English you daft moo!! That's one of the reasons it's so easy for an English speaker to learn French.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Yes but as John pointed out:



Basic English is really quite easy hence the fact that even


can learn it. But note how their command of the language falls apart when they try to use advanced vocabulary and tenses and that's just the tip of the iceberg - ah there you go now, that's an example 'tip of the iceberg'. English is enormously rich in similes, phrasal verbs and euphemisms, not to mention slang and that's even before one looks at dialects and local usages of the language. The speech of native speakers is literally peppered with them. Sometimes we communicate almost entirely in this way: 'For God's sake, would you ever come down off your high horse and give us a hand with this?' says one Irish man to another or a thirsty person might say 'I have a mouth on me like Ghandi's flip-flop'. Lyzko pointed out another factor which is the existence of multiple words having the same yet slightly different meaning:


Desk is not the same thing as a lectern or pulpit. Desk is a writing table, lectern is a desk/stand for reading and pulpit is not really any kind of desk, more of a stand and is specifically for speaking from. Oh and Lyzko don't forget bureau!

When I was being interviewed for a job teaching EFL many years ago the interviewer asked me which level I thought was the most difficult to teach and I replied 'intermediate without a doubt'. Basic English can be acquired quite quickly and students are pleasantly surprised at their own progress but when they get to intermediate they often exhibit a kind of syndrome where they spiral downwards into depression and desperation! The brighter ones realise at that point that they've only begun to scratch the surface and feel really overwhelmed by the vastness of the language and how much there still is to learn.

And that's just the spoken language. What about the spelling?? Very challenging.

Polish is not that difficult Levi. The phonetics of it are straightforward. Once you've learned them you can read and pronounce any word correctly which is a great boon when learning the basics. Some of the sounds are tricky for a non-Slav to master and they may never do so, but having a foreign accent when speaking a second language is not uncommon. As long as you're not mangling the word completely and people can understand you. The grammar is a different matter. To me Polish noun cases are the big stumbling block. I think it's very rare for any native English speaker to master those.

Just to conclude my Polish husband prefers to speak English as he says he finds it easier to express himself more concisely.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Well of course he's here, not because he wants to discuss anything, but because he wants to have a row with someone. And he won't be disappointed! It's a little hobby for the child anyway, keeps him out of worse mischief hopefully.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Ah Ziemowit, hello dear. I see we posted almost simultaneously. Great minds and all that........

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


I am.


I see you're another speed reader. Here's what I said about my Polish skills in that post:


Why oh why don't people pay attention when they're reading??

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Yes you would. You once got very cross with me for correcting your spelling (which I never normally do to other adults but you were being patronising and deserved it).

You make loads of errors in spelling and grammar which sometimes render your own posts less than comprehensible. The meaning is there only through the context, for example:


You mean communicative.


Completely meaningless.


Meaningless but I can gather from the context that you meant to say 'complimenting'.


Meaningless but no doubt a typo.

Now that's just a sample of your errors in the above post, there are more. One of the features of your own English Ironside is that your command of syntax and grammar deserts you big-time when you get over-excited. I've noticed that many times. Calm down or you'll have a stroke before you're fifty. And one of the nice things about Ziemowit is that he continues to want to learn and improve his English skills, it's one of the reasons he visits this forum. He's humble enough to know that he can still learn something.

I have to finish by correcting a mistake you make all the time because it's driving me absolutely nuts: stop saying 'end off' as a conclusion to posts. It's 'end of' as in 'end of the story'.

And yes my own Polish is cringe-inducing although people are very kind and tell me 'ale bardzo ładne Pani mowi po Polsku'. I don't though! 'Endings, endings, endings' my husband sighs. 'Your endings must be clear'.

Feedback / Is it Polish forum or foreign forum? [159]


No Ktos, what you mean is that they do not fit your criteria. Poles, like other nationalities in the developed world are a diverse group of people. They may share certain cultural experiences but they are individuals.

Feedback / Is it Polish forum or foreign forum? [159]


I'm not sure if it's funny........I have a strong sense that this poor child Ktos is on meds of some kind. Have you noticed how he disappears for quite long periods of time (probably when he's taking his meds) and then shows up again in a lather about something and sounding completely delusional (probably having ditched the meds). Mind you, like most people with mental health issues he's very expert at dodging direct answers to direct questions.

Food / British food products in Poland? [334]

Bird's custard powder, Bisto, Colman's mustard immediately spring to mind. My local supermarket in Warsaw stocks HP Sauce but I'm not a fan of that. They also have Lea & Perrins Worcester Sauce which I like. They're in the International food section. The Worcester sauce is in the Japanese section!! Do you have a Carrefour in Wrocław? My husband is Polish but he loves Colman's and Bovril which we also can't get here. I also miss being able to pick up a tin of Golden Syrup and a decent sized drum of baking powder; the tiny packets here with about two spoons of baking powder drive me nuts.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [281]



Ireland saves the day again Polly! Christmas ends officially on 6 January. Decorations come down then. It's said to be bad luck to leave them up after that. It's known as Little Christmas and also Women's Christmas especially in Cork and Kerry where the men take on the housework for the day and the women often meet for an outing or lunch party. When I was a child the Three Kings did not go into the crib until 6 January as they supposedly did not arrive in Bethlehem until then. It was very annoying to a child, as they were beautiful figures so my lovely mother used to line them up on the table near the crib to show them making their journey........I was a lucky child.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [281]

I've hardly had time to scratch myself today but must take a moment to wish you all a happy, healthy and peaceful Christmas. Love to everyone.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [281]


Yes my dear husband performed the honours this year. He's a very efficient carp killer and I warned him beforehand about the terrible consequences if he damaged any of my precious bathroom fixtures!


No. Bringing home the live carp and keeping it for several days in the bath tub of cold water has been common practice for a long time.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [281]

It's about a hundred years older than that Polly, written around the mid 1800s. I imagine it was the recording industry that popularised it. It was recorded by the famous tenor Caruso sometime before 1920 which may account for its long standing popularity in Ireland as the Irish loved a good tenor and he was hugely popular with my grandfather's generation.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [281]

Aw, I'm so glad someone watched it, I thought it would be dismissed as nausea inducing sentimentality.

Now if we're in the mood for some music, here's the absolutely perfect song for Wigilia. I've not heard it sung in Poland but if it isn't it should be.

What would an Irish Christmas be without 'Oh Holy Night', the staple of every school and church concert and many a staff room sing-song in my teaching years. In every Irish school there seems to be an older teacher with a beautiful soprano voice to start it off. There may be younger teachers with an equally lovely voice, but Oh Holy Night is a badge of honour and always goes to the most senior staff! (I bet they have to advertise every few years, Junior Infant teacher required, ability to sing solo in Oh Holy Night a distinct advantage, must complete minimum ten years service before doing so'.)

Anyway it may an Irish favourite but nobody sings carols like the English. My mother once paid me the great compliment of informing me that I sang hymns with 'the true Protestant hoot'! And here it is from King's College Cambridge, Christmas Eve service of the Nine Lessons and Carols, it's a really beautiful arrangement so if anyone here is musical you'll love this:

youtube.com/watch?v=rYyhLkQV6no

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [281]


Yes, for me as an Irish person, it reminds me of Good Friday, to tell you the truth! No red meat, no alcohol. In Ireland no alcohol is sold on Good Friday and I remember once the local branch of Tesco had to close because although they weren't selling alcohol, the off-licence section wasn't considered to be suitably separated from the rest of the produce. I remember the Gardai outside and the general to-do and hoo ha. It's very rare to see a Garda making a fuss about anything in Ireland, it's always 'that wouldn't be anything to do with us, that's a civil matter'. Anyway they managed to block off the area with some kind of make-shift shutters or something and were open again within a couple of hours. In a truly hilarious and typically Irish fashion hotels are allowed to serve alcohol on Good Friday 'as part of a substantial meal'.


And here's a lovely video from Dublin Airport that will warm the cockles of even the hardest heart. At one point of there's a pair of really adorable little tots, I'd say they're about three years old, welcoming each other home and somewhere in the middle is a host of 'wholesome' Irish schoolgirls to delight Polly, carol singing in their lovely navy blue school uniforms:

youtube.com/watch?v=gyB8UMfVoWk



I really have to go and do something useful now, after nine o'clock and not a child in the house washed as we say in my part of the world.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [281]




And we're back! You're all at it again, not that you ever really stopped of course. You're like a little family of Jack Russells.


I was speaking figuratively, in that once midnight had passed, they would certainly have a drink,
but they weren't an especially religious family. When the children were young they were definitely taken to mass by their mother but I think once they'd all made their confirmation the parents considered they'd done their duty. There were definitely no gospel readings before Wigilia supper. I must check with him but I think that the men of the family didn't really bother about Midnight Mass but the women went.


I would say that it's common for Polish people to offer their Christmas guests/visitors a libation (lovely old fashioned word isn't it?). If I were visiting someone on the 25th I would expect to see the old glass of dessert wine being offered to the 'ladies' and a drop of the hard stuff or a bottle of beer for the men. The fact that alcohol is consumed as part of the festivities doesn't mean that people are alcoholics, though of course most extended families in Poland or Ireland have at least one bona fide alcoholic.

Anyway we won't argue about it. Let us put aside our wrangling and quarrelsome ways in deference to the season- ooh, I've come over all Victorian. Pickwick Papers, A Christmas Carol, God Bless Charles Dickens and all things Christmassy - God Bless us all, every one.