History / Polish military uniforms - collar markings [74]

Thanks Jason and Grubas - exactly what I was talking about.

Jason, your photos show similar lines to the picture of my grand uncle from the 1920's, though his lines were a little shorter. Nice photos too mate - ancestors?

Grubas, yours show the thicker bar,which I suspect is far more modern. Sometimes the bar is hollow, with further lines/scrollwork within that hollow section.

Any idea as to who came up with these and why they appear as they do?

Thanks guys.

History / Polish military uniforms - collar markings [74]

Mate, it's those diagonal/zig-zag lines that are embroidered on officer's shirt collars, and they also appear on the cuffs of coats and the band around the czapska. I've got a photo of my grand uncle from, it appears, the 1920's, with just a solid embroidered zig zag line on his collar, whereas my other grand uncle's and dziadeck's collars (pics from just before WW2) show the zig zag but as a thicker 'bar', with other zig zaggy lines inside the border. I'm not very computer savvy so I don't know how to post a picture. Cheers mate.

PS - I'm not talking about chevrons which appear on the arm of a shirt.


Thanks Jason. They seem to have commenced in the late 18th Century, and particularly around the time of the Napoleonic Wars. Any idea as to why they are shown as squiggly lines, and where the idea came from?

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [515]

Sorry, I thought it was. Are you familiar with General Bear Cub and his deposition? His is a tragic story, and one of many similar stories of the heroes of the Rising (like Kontrym, Nil, Pilecki) who faced judicial murder at the hands of the Soviets.

My dad went through the Rising as a small child and told me many things about his experiences. They are all tragic and gut wrenching, except for the story of the Polish/Jewish doctor who was saved by the Wehrmacht from the SS because he saved the life of a Wehrmacht Officer.

Genealogy / Mongolian the Golden Horde - do Poles have Mongolian ancestry? [256]


Wouldn't it be interesting if one of our forum members actually had a genuine family tree done up that could properly trace their ancestry back to some Mongol or Tatar individual/family. What about yourself Des? Any Tatar ancestors?


In the sense that we are also made up of what our immediate environment bestows on us?

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [515]


May I suggest you read the deposition of General Bear Cub (Leopold Okulicki) to the NKVD after his capture? It sets out the reasons, in his eyes (and he was a senior commander) for the Rising. It should be available online or is transcribed in Rising 44 by Norman Davies, another 'must read' on the Rising in my opinion.

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]


Hi Puzzie. For me, it's just a legend, because I don't have anything tangible to say that we are descended from these people.


I mean in the sense of their percentage, their makeup, their freedoms, their politics, dress, etc etc.


Yes, I'm aware of this, and thought it was a good idea to attract and hold a wider audience. Speaking of names, I read a post on this forum recently where a monument has been erected in Warsaw to an Indian Maharajah who adopted Polish children during WW2 - his name was shortened so as to make it easier for Poles to pronounce. Swings and roundabouts my friend ;)

Hi Gene. Some Jewish Poles were ennobled after conversion to Catholicism. I think Davies sets out the numbers, and in what years, in God's Playground.

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]

Gday Gene, and welcome to the forum. I'm wearing a several hundred year old signet ring which has my family's herb on it. It's got crowns, shields, wings, horseshoes and arrows on it. On the sides of the ring, where it isn't too worn, it has what looks to be once elaborate baroqueish scroll work. I've got a signet stamp at home with the herb on it too.

I'm not sure when the crest was acquired/created. I can trace my ancestors back to 1583 based on the internet, and I have a copy of a family tree that was started back in the 1770's and added on til about the mid 1800's. I am aware that some of my ancestors have held senior positions in Poland and that one of my ancestors went with a small contingent of his troops to Vienna in 1683. It seems as though my family had a strong military tradition, as nearly all the family photos I have from about the mid 1800's to the 1930's have males of my line in military gear. My great great great grandfather is photographed wearing Sarmatian attire, fur kolpak, cloak and high boots included (as well as the handlebar moustache). We originated in what is now Ukraine, and bred horses there.

Legend has it that my family's genesis goes back to the early 1300's, and that we are descended from Tatars. I'll probably never know for sure though.

The Polish nobility was very different to the rest of Europe. Norman Davies gives an excellent account of this in his work "God's Playground". Cheers.

History / Poland: Her heroes and her traitors [225]

I've just been reading about Prince Roman Sanguszko, the Prince who walked to his exile to Siberia in the 19th Century. I think he's an heroic figure.

History / Origins of Polish Slavs [138]

Thanks for your excellent analysis Bieganski - I enjoyed reading it and you're obviously well learned in this field. Cheers

History / Origins of Polish Slavs [138]


Hi ZTG - I always thought they originated from peoples like the Huns, Avars, Sarmatians and so on? I recall reading as a child an excellent book called "The World of the Ancient Slavs". I can't recall the author, but I recall it had discussions on origins.


Quite right. How then could one explain certain physical/appearance traits that a lot of Poles seem to have (ie high foreheads, flat back of head, high cheekbones, vampire hairline)?

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


You were invited to adduce proof to back up your flawed proposition and you failed to do so. I told you that if you did, your position would be vindicated, but because of the failure of the former, the latter is extinguished. Merely asserting and professing indignation that 'semantics' and 'philosophical jargon' have been used to wrongly rebut your assumption, is, without proof of same, mischievous and disingenuous, as is your argument as a whole that Polish nobility (szlachta) were not noble by virtue of some vacuous claim by analogy to English Freemen and other nebulous and fantastic criteria.

I don't mean to be critical, but you have been outsmarted and have lost the argument.

I appreciate that you attempt to give the impression on this forum of having been everywhere and done everything, and of being a CJonfucius on all matters Polish, but wisdom (ie knowing not to defend the indefensible) is the hallmark of sagacious counsel, not acerbic wit smattered with a few droplets of anecdote and anachronisms. Go in peace to avoid further embarrassment, and learn from your mistakes.

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


It's not a pre-requisite. The status of szlachta as nobles was legally enshrined. I am unfamiliar with any Act that prescribes a member of the szlachta having to hand in their noble status due to impecunity. You are familiar with the term Golota szlachta, aren't you.

Status is a social descriptor, but szlachta were not defined by their social mobility, rather their legal one. If you can find me a piece of genuine, contemporary evidence proving your position then it is vindicated. If you cannot, then you have lost the debate.


When did he cease to be noble? Who is the arbiter and what is the benchmark test? Or is this just your opinion. In fact, it is your mere opinion because it's London to a brick that you have no evidence to back this opinion.


I'm not actually - re-reading my post, and your argument, I was misconceived in respect of Diet deputies. Do you know why?


If it was 'proven long ago', then adduce the proof. Petitio principii is apt.


No, I don't know it. You seem fairly confident it is though - why not pick it apart and show that it is nonsense, rather than merely asserting it is. You should have no trouble doing that.


Indeed it did. You're preaching to the converted. It is quite easy to point out the obvious, but a lot more difficult to properly analysis the context and causes of the decline. Why don't you tell us what caused the fall of the Cth?

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


I'm sorry, but it's not. Socio-economic standing is a corrollary to the practical trappings of nobility, not the definitive test. I'm sure that in England (and indeed elsewhere), there are nobles who live in penury. This doesn't make them any less noble.

The szlachta (noble) status of the szlachta was enshrined in legislation, documented and carried forward organically (somewhat) through tradition. It is up to you to prove they were/are not nobles, and no, this is not a Russell's teapot type request.

Again, just because you say it is, doesn't make it so, and indeed, you are stepping into the realms of petition principii.


Fallacy of composition.


You're clutching at straws. What was the role of dietine deputies?


It is fallacious to try to prove an argument as to the quality or otherwise of the subject based on hindsight. Be wary too of the fallacy of circular cause and consequence, vis a vis your reference to anarchy

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


They were nobility - res ipsa loquitur.

They also had structure and responsibilities, though these principles/concepts, or lack thereof, do not necessarily serve as the litmus test for what is or isn't noble. Whilst at all times the Polish nobility may not have enjoyed 'gentility' or 'wealth' commensurate to each other, they were, legally, all the same at all times, that is, nobility with equal legal rights. Just because they were politically and legally active does not mean that such interests were contra-indicators to their statuus as nobles.


Why an understatement? If you distill it, isn't that the only failing?


Be wary of presentism and hindsight.


I don't catch your drift.

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


Actually, it is derived from Latin/French.


You misconceive the relationship, in the Polish context, between freedoms and responsibilities. The szlachta, per se, did not seek to hamstring the imposition of responsibilites purely by virtue of the fact that they wished more 'freedom'. The freedom aspect to Constitutional policy during the Cth. had more to do with limiting absolutist, arbitrary and despotic rule of a king. They saw and foreshadowed what would happen to the Cth (as happened in England) if they allowed themselves (like the Brits) to be taken over by "Royalty". It was the Freedom to have a voice and a guiding hand in how you were governed. Sometimes the partnership worked well (Bathory), other times it didn't (Wettin).

The paramount responsibility of the szlachta (or nobility) was that of protecting Poland, or Pospolite Ruszenie, the levee en masse. Freedom and responsibility were not mutually exclusive mind you - for example; in the C15, certain 'privileges' were agreed upon for the szlachta, and given by the King, one of which was the obligation of Pospolite Ruszenie being limited to actions inside Poland. Thus, the szlachta sought to limit the King's ability to issue the call to arms and prevent involvement in the disputes of other countries.


Sorry, but it's not - a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid. It would be like saying that a frog has skin, and because humans have skin, we must be frogs too.


You ought to be disabused of your misconception. Whether you like it or not, szlachta were nobles. Sorry, but you can't change that. I would suggest a perusal of Lukowski's "Liberty's Folly". It is in depth, though elementary, and you will find it easy to understand. Relying on Carlyle will not allow an understanding of the nuances of Polish nobility and Constitutional Law.


You again misconceive and misrepresent the legal/constitutional concept of unanimity with anarchy. Please refrain from sniping and being disingenuous.


Exactly (it's good to see someone who seems to understand it). The Liberum Veto was the purest form of democracy (I acknowledge its applicability to the szlachta however). It was not an object to which failings could be ascribed. The only failing of the Polish body politic was not legislating contingency protocols for what was to happen if the Liberum Veto was enacted, and such enaction hamstrung the passing of other legislation.

To blame the Liberum Veto as some sort of vehicle for 'anarchy' is simply wrong because it is illogical, when you really sit down and think about it.


Indeed it was. At the time, it was a stupendous victory for unanimity and consent over unilateral, arbitrary despotism.

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [515]


Great post - I enjoyed reading it.

You're Irish? Are you familiar with the significant Irish contribution for Poland during the Polish Insurrection in the 1860's? It makes fascinating reading.


Nope. Can't recall where I read that. Most likely though a book on the Rising by an English author. I can't remember the name or title, but the cover jacket had a grey background with a monochrome/shadow/negative style picture of someone with their hands in the air.

I might add that after thinking more about the passage, I seem to recall that the issue was more to do with affording the AK combatant status, viz the Polish Army proper under command of HMG. I also recall that it was formulated about halfway through the Rising, after mounting pressure from the Government in Exile. Nevertheless, HMG did it, and credit is given where it is due.

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [515]


Hi Pawian. There is no doubt in my mind that had HMG not given a very strong and clear message to the Germans that if they massacred the AK prisoners, similar would befall the German prisoners in British custody, these AK prisoners would be dead. If you had any relatives who fought in the Rising, they have probably told you gut churning stories of what was done to AK and civilian prisoners once caught.

In contrast, the AK (with rare exception) observed the proper procedure for taking and holding German prisoners, though I am aware of one instance where arbitrary vengeance was meted out to a German flamethrower team who burned a civilain family alive in their basement.

The anecdoes of WW2 are littered with Polish forebearance toward a fallen enemy. I think it was Skalski who in the first days of the war, shot down a German pilot, then actually landed to check if he was alright.


It's actually quite correct. The Germans suffered such a high proportion of kiled to wounded by virtue of the AK's limited ammunition - simply, the AK had to make every shot count, and had a high proportion of marksmen in their ranks.

In fact, the AK's success and guerilla nous was such that some German counter partisan units from the East were brought in to learn how to fight in an urban environment from the AK.


I love this simple poem from Michener - thanks for positng it mate! Did you like "Poland"?

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]


My mind on these types of issues is usually drawn to the words of the renowned jurist O.W Holmes, who pronounced words to the effect that freedom of speech should not protect one who would falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. To some degree, this is apposite here. What do you think?

On the other hand, my mind is drawn to the historic Polish trait (generally speaking) of separating liberty from religious prescription - it was I believe King Zygmunt who, when pressed by the Papal legate to take action against heretics, uttered words to the effect of "Permit me Sir to be the King of the Sheep and the Goats".

Whilst it may be difficult to reconcile these two seemingly opposite modes of thought, it is possible if one takes into account the relative context (in a time/political sense) to when both freedom of religion and speech were postulated, and with a sprinkling of common sense.

History / Battle of Warsaw/Miracle at the Vistula in Poland [21]


I think you're right. Davies in Rising 44 (Notes) refers to a new edition to be published in 2003.


I'll try and dig out an essay I did at Uni in the 90's as it had a bibliography with a lot of different authors/works. Can't guarantee I'll find it in time for you though but I'll try. Alexander(?) Giesztor rings a bell as being another author who wrote a fairly good history, though I think this was published back in the 1960's.

Hi Wedle,

I'm sorry but I couldn't find the bibliography and can't help any further with other works. All the best.

History / Battle of Warsaw/Miracle at the Vistula in Poland [21]

Whilst it doesn't exclusively deal with the C20, "Heart of Europe" by Davies is essentially an abridged version of God's Playground and seems to borrow heavily on the salient parts. I'd recommend that as it's about 350 pages and a good read.

I've also read Lukowski (Liberty's Folly - more to do with C17) but I think he has a general history of Poland as well in another work.

I haven't heard of the other books you've cited but they sound interesting.

I'm not sure if there's a 2nd edition of WERS. The one I had was a beat up old paperback. I'll try and find it.

Have you thought of also giving him Michener's "Poland" - a work of fiction based on 'fact', but a good read nonetheless and it'll probably whet his appetite for other works.

Cheers.

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]


Well, for one thing, Harry professes to not speak the Polish language.

As to whether or not Busia is inherently Polish per se, I cannot be certain. My dad however has never heard of it and still has fluent command of the Polish language. Who cares anyway? Is there anything serious at stake here for you and your friends to argue so forcefully against a concept that a nebulous word that appears to be a contraction of something else cannot be Polish?

History / Battle of Warsaw/Miracle at the Vistula in Poland [21]


Hi Wedle. I havent read Zamoyski but I read Davies book many years ago, and, as usual with Davies, found it an excellent read. If you're aware of Davies work, you'll know that he writes in an imaginative style, whereas Zamoyski seems slightly drier and more prosaic. Either way, I'm sure you won't go wrong with either author in terms of accuracy.

Is there anything specific you wish to know about the Battle of Warsaw? If it's anything battle related, I can try and ask my dad, whose dad, uncles and removed cousin all fought in it and related some stories to him (think I posted a piccie on PF of the three of them taken shortly after the battle).

I've always been interested in this battle on the grounds that it was the last large scale cavalry battle in Europe, and of course the Poles beat the Muscovites hordes. What's your interest in it?

Cheers Dan

History / Poland: Her heroes and her traitors [225]

Whenever I think of Polish heroes I think of the likes of Bear Cub, Nil and Novak. Their deeds, and particularly the silence under torture of the former 2, hold them high as paragons of virtue and selflessness. If I could have but 100th of the honour contained in the little finger of 1 of them I would be satisfied.

I think Davies described Bear Cub as a knight without peer or reproach, and that is true.

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


Oops! Sorry to the Ukraine. And sorry for the typo too, though I suspect if one could indulge in eating a country, Poland would probably be 'eatenmost'.


Kind of (thanks for the save mate). I was actually in a historic mindset when I typed that, per my reference to the literature of the C16 & 17.

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


I had always had it in my mind that Poland was in Eastern Europe, and indeed the Eaternmost European country. Literature from the C16 or 17 refers to Poland as the easternmost bastion of Christianity.

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [515]


Well said. Whilst I'm sure you're aware of it, Gen. Okulicki (aka Bear Cub) provided a statement as to the reasons why the Rising was launched. It makes compelling (and I'd suggest compulsory, given its candour) reading and is an Appendix to Davies' Rising '44, or may be available online. I prefer his views to the fantasies postulated by some of our resident armchair experts.

Indubitably, a triumph of the spirit, relative to the circumstances. I can't recall who said it, but to borrow a phrase "To Poland, it was more important to play the game fairly than to win it". Modern day Poland is far removed from such romantic notions, but vis a vis tragedies of the past, which cannot be changed or rationalised, such sentiment provides solace and a hope that the sacrifice wasn't in vain.

Genealogy / Kasprzak Golab looking for family history [11]

On 9 May 1944, Jozefa Kasprzak was transported with 56 other women from the Pawiak to Ravensbruck. Her fate is unknown. I'm sorry if this was a relative.

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [196]


I find it difficult to believe that you would profess ignorance of the breaches to the Treaty given that you and I have discussed it at length and you were shown prima facie breaches.

If memory serves, the ball was left in your court some time ago in our discussions on another thread (Should HMG compensate Poles etc) regarding Art. 5. when you said:


Are you back in the office yet? Now's your time Harry...


Peking Plan, no? For the benefit of those unfamiliar with it, by mutual agreement between Britain and Poland, several ships of the Polish Navy steamed to a British port and served the balance of the war ostensibly under British command -that factual matrix is correct isnt it Harry? Out of interest, do you have any piccies of those Polish ships fighting for Britain?

Perhaps if the British had steamed some of their ships to Poland's aid at or before the commencement of the war and placed themselves at the disposal of the Polish navy then... well, we couldn't have had that because that would have been honouring Art. 1 of the Treaty.


On the information to hand, it was base betrayal of the Ukraine. Pilsudski's attitude toward, and apology to, the Ukrainian delegation at the conference, is evidence enough of that. Ergo, there is no point in arguing against the occurrence of a historic truth, no matter how distasteful to Poles, unless you can show something in mitigation of that act to serve as an explanation rather than an excuse or complete defence.

Your last part is correct - whilst Poland indulged in an act of stupidity and betrayal, such act does not serve to preclude Poland from arguing that some other nation betrayed it, particularly where such act of betrayal arose in circumstances and per agreements wholly unrelated to the Polish-Soviet War.


Harry is a true-blue, dinky di Aussie just like me.

Were you born in Sydney like me Harry? We could have been born in the same hospital mate and shared wet nurses?

History / Quotes of Polish or German kings, generals [41]

"It was a brawl, a scrap, a bagarre" - Pilsudski's description of the 1920 Battle of Warsaw - a masterful understatement.

"Permit me Sir to be the master of the sheep as well as the goats" King Zygmunt in response to criticism from the Papal Legate regarding Poland's acceptance and tolerance of heretics in the C16.

Edit:

Should have been goats first then sheep last.