vetala
20 Jun 2010
vetala
16 Jun 2010
History / The Two Saddest Nations on Earth... Poles and Jews [243]
The wording is confusing and might look to some like a provocation. If he had used plural form, it would be clearer.
Is Rafał Betlejewski a provocator?
The wording is confusing and might look to some like a provocation. If he had used plural form, it would be clearer.
vetala
14 Jun 2010
History / The Two Saddest Nations on Earth... Poles and Jews [243]
Were you bullied or something? That would explain some things.
But then I went to a high school that was mostly Jewish
Were you bullied or something? That would explain some things.
vetala
14 Jun 2010
History / Poles as Iroquois of Europe [42]
Frederick II is only mentioned as one of the 2 who partitioned Poland. No demonization. As for Bismarck, his service to Germany is described but so is Kulturkampf and his anti-Polish policies which really did happen, unlike what some here would like to believe.
I am curious how polish books in school describe Friedriech der Groesse or Bismarck.
Frederick II is only mentioned as one of the 2 who partitioned Poland. No demonization. As for Bismarck, his service to Germany is described but so is Kulturkampf and his anti-Polish policies which really did happen, unlike what some here would like to believe.
vetala
14 Jun 2010
History / Poles as Iroquois of Europe [42]
I don't know what he thought about Iroquois but he once compared Poles to wolves that have to be shot whenever possible so what you said must have been an insult on his part.
I don't know what he thought about Iroquois but he once compared Poles to wolves that have to be shot whenever possible so what you said must have been an insult on his part.
vetala
14 Jun 2010
History / The Two Saddest Nations on Earth... Poles and Jews [243]
Lol, what a blog!
No I've checked the blog from these pics were taken ;)here you have:
Lol, what a blog!
vetala
9 Jun 2010
vetala
9 Jun 2010
History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]
I was talking about general perceptions people have not the exact encyclopedic definition, which by the way changes a lot with time as you may have noticed. And if you care more about encyclopedic definitions, then you have to agree that Poland is in the center of Europe, neither in the West nor in the East.
All the same huh?
I was talking about general perceptions people have not the exact encyclopedic definition, which by the way changes a lot with time as you may have noticed. And if you care more about encyclopedic definitions, then you have to agree that Poland is in the center of Europe, neither in the West nor in the East.
vetala
9 Jun 2010
History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]
I meant it more in the way of the Western/Eastern world than just Europe. When you hear "West" what comes to your mind? America, France, England... not much of a difference. But when you hear "East" it could be Russia, Persia or even China and Japan - so very different. Of course, Poland is culturally hard to distinguish from Western European countries but being listed alongside diverse Eastern cultures is an honor.
How so?
I meant it more in the way of the Western/Eastern world than just Europe. When you hear "West" what comes to your mind? America, France, England... not much of a difference. But when you hear "East" it could be Russia, Persia or even China and Japan - so very different. Of course, Poland is culturally hard to distinguish from Western European countries but being listed alongside diverse Eastern cultures is an honor.
vetala
9 Jun 2010
History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]
Like every Pole, I used to be bothered by the "Eastern" label but now I actually quite like it. Eastern cultures are much more interesting and diverse than Western ones. It doesn't change the fact that we're in the geographical center of Europe, though.
Like every Pole, I used to be bothered by the "Eastern" label but now I actually quite like it. Eastern cultures are much more interesting and diverse than Western ones. It doesn't change the fact that we're in the geographical center of Europe, though.
vetala
5 Jun 2010
Genealogy / Is your line of the Polish family noble? [74]
But 'many' if not 'most'. My point still stands - a person can be of both Jewish and noble descent.
Not 'everyone' and not 'every'.
But 'many' if not 'most'. My point still stands - a person can be of both Jewish and noble descent.
vetala
5 Jun 2010
Genealogy / Is your line of the Polish family noble? [74]
False. Some Jews were ennobled for service to the country. And every Jew who converted was automatically ennobled.
[rp.pl/artykul/139640.html]
Ennoblement neophytes in Poland date back to the reign of John Albert , who was in 1499 . Baptized into the nobility in Lithuania Stanislaus Oszejkę .
The constitutions of the Sejm of the Republic XVI - XVII century . Essentially no more mention of uszlachconych konwertytach jewel among the crowd recipients of nobility , which makes the determination of the number of converts ennobled quite impossible .
Here's an article about it. It explains everything, shows some of the coats of arms of families of converts and a partial list of surnames.
I have a confirmed noble ancestry, by the way.
2. if so, you'd have nothing to do with Polish 'nobility'
False. Some Jews were ennobled for service to the country. And every Jew who converted was automatically ennobled.
[rp.pl/artykul/139640.html]
Ennoblement neophytes in Poland date back to the reign of John Albert , who was in 1499 . Baptized into the nobility in Lithuania Stanislaus Oszejkę .
The constitutions of the Sejm of the Republic XVI - XVII century . Essentially no more mention of uszlachconych konwertytach jewel among the crowd recipients of nobility , which makes the determination of the number of converts ennobled quite impossible .
Here's an article about it. It explains everything, shows some of the coats of arms of families of converts and a partial list of surnames.
I have a confirmed noble ancestry, by the way.
vetala
1 Jun 2010
History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]
What are you people even arguing over? Didn't you read Secret City by Gunnar Paulsson? He says that the rate of survival of Jews going into hiding in Poland and Netherlands was exactly the same. He's a lecturer at the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies so he can be trusted in that aspect.
What are you people even arguing over? Didn't you read Secret City by Gunnar Paulsson? He says that the rate of survival of Jews going into hiding in Poland and Netherlands was exactly the same. He's a lecturer at the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies so he can be trusted in that aspect.
vetala
7 May 2010
Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]
Ask yourself - if your country was invaded, who would cheer? There are always cowards and opportunists who change sides AFTER the fall of the country but there's nobody who would be happy to be invaded.
That reminds me, there's one particular photo of a crying woman doing the Nazi salute and every time I see it posted somewhere, it has a different caption. I've seen her described as Austrian, Czech, Polish, French and German, come claim the photo was taken in 1938, 1939, 1945... some claim that she's crying from happiness, others that she was forced to salute.
It doesn't tell me anything.
And besides, there were ppl cheering the German troops as they marched in everywhere.
Ask yourself - if your country was invaded, who would cheer? There are always cowards and opportunists who change sides AFTER the fall of the country but there's nobody who would be happy to be invaded.
(just look on pics)
That reminds me, there's one particular photo of a crying woman doing the Nazi salute and every time I see it posted somewhere, it has a different caption. I've seen her described as Austrian, Czech, Polish, French and German, come claim the photo was taken in 1938, 1939, 1945... some claim that she's crying from happiness, others that she was forced to salute.
It doesn't tell me anything.
vetala
6 May 2010
Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]
Please remember that I mean a very far ancestry. One person living 1000 years ago can have millions of descendants today.
Take Frankists for example (they were far from the ony Jews who converted but with Frankists at least we can operate on concrete numbers).
Let's say that every each one of Frankists and their descendants had only two children and only at the age of 30. that would leave us with 3,328,000 descendants of Frankists in the year 2000.
And now about the haplotype: let's imagine that half of the Frankists were men and half of them were women. As for their children, one is always a girl and the other always a boy. If a woman whose father had J haplotype marries a man without it then their children will have no trace of J haplotype. A man with J haplotype, on the other hand, would only be able to pass it onto his son. Therefore in the year 1790 we have 13,000 men with J haplotype but in 1820 only 6500 of their descendants have that haplotype. Flashforward to the year 2000 - only 101 of the descendants of Frankists have J haplotype while the other 3,327,899 have R1A haplotype.
This is what usually happens whenever there's a an inclusion of 'foreign' blood in homogenious nations - it gets very quickly suppressed. But it doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of the Polish population has at least one Jewish ancestor.
Please remember that I mean a very far ancestry. One person living 1000 years ago can have millions of descendants today.
Take Frankists for example (they were far from the ony Jews who converted but with Frankists at least we can operate on concrete numbers).
Let's say that every each one of Frankists and their descendants had only two children and only at the age of 30. that would leave us with 3,328,000 descendants of Frankists in the year 2000.
And now about the haplotype: let's imagine that half of the Frankists were men and half of them were women. As for their children, one is always a girl and the other always a boy. If a woman whose father had J haplotype marries a man without it then their children will have no trace of J haplotype. A man with J haplotype, on the other hand, would only be able to pass it onto his son. Therefore in the year 1790 we have 13,000 men with J haplotype but in 1820 only 6500 of their descendants have that haplotype. Flashforward to the year 2000 - only 101 of the descendants of Frankists have J haplotype while the other 3,327,899 have R1A haplotype.
This is what usually happens whenever there's a an inclusion of 'foreign' blood in homogenious nations - it gets very quickly suppressed. But it doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of the Polish population has at least one Jewish ancestor.
vetala
6 May 2010
Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]
26,000 Frankist converts are behind my statement ;)
Allow me to explain - although it was unusual for a catholic to become a Jew it wasn't as unheard of for a Jew to become a catholic. That's why there's a higher chance for Poles to have Jewish ancestors than for Jews to have Polish ancestors.
I don't know anything about DNA, so I wondered if the was some science behind your statement
26,000 Frankist converts are behind my statement ;)
Allow me to explain - although it was unusual for a catholic to become a Jew it wasn't as unheard of for a Jew to become a catholic. That's why there's a higher chance for Poles to have Jewish ancestors than for Jews to have Polish ancestors.
vetala
6 May 2010
Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]
Before or after WWII? If you mean before then certainly not majorly Polish. People in the past rarely married outside their religious circles and it was very unusual for a Pole to convert to Judaism. Even if some did, their haplotype would also be eventually lost.
However, during inter-war Poland marriages between Poles and Jews became more common. Also, not many Jews were left after WWII and communist purges so most of them married catholic Poles. Current Polish-Jewish minority most probably has Polish R1A haplotype.
Before or after WWII? If you mean before then certainly not majorly Polish. People in the past rarely married outside their religious circles and it was very unusual for a Pole to convert to Judaism. Even if some did, their haplotype would also be eventually lost.
However, during inter-war Poland marriages between Poles and Jews became more common. Also, not many Jews were left after WWII and communist purges so most of them married catholic Poles. Current Polish-Jewish minority most probably has Polish R1A haplotype.
vetala
6 May 2010
Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]
You do realize that a man can have only one Y-DNA haplotype? And that it can only be inherited by males, never by females? In other words: if your mother has J haplotype, your DNA test wouldn't show it. If your mother, grandparents and greatgrandparents from your mother's side were all Jews, you would still figure as a person with no trace of Jewish ancestry. Practically every Pole has at least one Jewish ancestor but it's not enough to significantly change the most common haplotypes in the country.
The only thing your data proves is that there are hardly any pure-blooded Jews in Poland. Most of them probably have R1A haplotype.
The Main Jewish Haplogroup is J1.Poland is only 1 percent J1.
You do realize that a man can have only one Y-DNA haplotype? And that it can only be inherited by males, never by females? In other words: if your mother has J haplotype, your DNA test wouldn't show it. If your mother, grandparents and greatgrandparents from your mother's side were all Jews, you would still figure as a person with no trace of Jewish ancestry. Practically every Pole has at least one Jewish ancestor but it's not enough to significantly change the most common haplotypes in the country.
The only thing your data proves is that there are hardly any pure-blooded Jews in Poland. Most of them probably have R1A haplotype.
vetala
4 May 2010
Genealogy / Why are some Polish people dark complected, and others very light [511]
Read the thread. It has 10 pages of different theories of this "phenomenon".
Can anyone explain the ancestry of dark Poles such as her?
Read the thread. It has 10 pages of different theories of this "phenomenon".
vetala
3 May 2010
Genealogy / The last name is Krzywoszyja. Help? Am I Polish? [30]
I beg to differ...
LOL! This is SO true.
I beg to differ...
vetala
3 May 2010
Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]
In that case I see several possibilities:
1. Your father's colleague made it all up.
2. Your father's colleague misinterpreted his father's words.
3. His father made it all up.
4. His father didn't know why he was denied employment and simply assumed that it was due to antisemitism.
5. Your father's colleague wanted to make himself seem more important by stating that he hails from a family of doctors and not, say, farmers or building constructors.
6. His father competed for a job with a catholic and lost. Bitter, he blamed it on antisemitism.
7. The director of the hospital was antisemitic and didn't want to employ Jews so he lied that he's not allowed to do so by law.
Whichever one is true, the only way of proving him wrong is to present him with a list of Jewish doctors in pre-war Poland. The law was universal for the whole country so you don't have to search for them specifically in Tarnopol. My advice is to show him at least one full page of surnames, he won't be able to ignore that many. However, there's a possibility that he's simply too proud to admit that he was wrong or lying in which case he will never admit it, no matter how much evidence you present him with.
Also, from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland
The major industries in which Polish Jews were employed were manufacturing and commerce. In many areas of the country the majority of retail businesses were owned by Jews who were sometimes among the wealthiest members of their communities. Many Jews also worked as shoemakers and tailors, as well in the liberal professions; doctors (56% of all doctors in Poland), teachers (43%), journalists (22%) and lawyers (33%)
Hospitals would have to be seriously understaffed if 56% of doctors were refused employment.
No, this was during Polish independence.
In that case I see several possibilities:
1. Your father's colleague made it all up.
2. Your father's colleague misinterpreted his father's words.
3. His father made it all up.
4. His father didn't know why he was denied employment and simply assumed that it was due to antisemitism.
5. Your father's colleague wanted to make himself seem more important by stating that he hails from a family of doctors and not, say, farmers or building constructors.
6. His father competed for a job with a catholic and lost. Bitter, he blamed it on antisemitism.
7. The director of the hospital was antisemitic and didn't want to employ Jews so he lied that he's not allowed to do so by law.
Whichever one is true, the only way of proving him wrong is to present him with a list of Jewish doctors in pre-war Poland. The law was universal for the whole country so you don't have to search for them specifically in Tarnopol. My advice is to show him at least one full page of surnames, he won't be able to ignore that many. However, there's a possibility that he's simply too proud to admit that he was wrong or lying in which case he will never admit it, no matter how much evidence you present him with.
Also, from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland
The major industries in which Polish Jews were employed were manufacturing and commerce. In many areas of the country the majority of retail businesses were owned by Jews who were sometimes among the wealthiest members of their communities. Many Jews also worked as shoemakers and tailors, as well in the liberal professions; doctors (56% of all doctors in Poland), teachers (43%), journalists (22%) and lawyers (33%)
Hospitals would have to be seriously understaffed if 56% of doctors were refused employment.
vetala
2 May 2010
Food / Poles prefer pizza & kebab? [73]
British people love curry and I don't hear anyone complaining.
I eat soups and pierogi every day at home. I get sick of them sometimes and wish for something new.
British people love curry and I don't hear anyone complaining.
I eat soups and pierogi every day at home. I get sick of them sometimes and wish for something new.
vetala
2 May 2010
Study / Rumor about racism - will I be fine in Poland as a black International student from Africa? [245]
jarnowa
Dude, you don't speak Polish and you started 2 racist threads on this forum and now suddenly you're concerned about the well-being of black people and Arabs?
jarnowa
Dude, you don't speak Polish and you started 2 racist threads on this forum and now suddenly you're concerned about the well-being of black people and Arabs?
vetala
2 May 2010
Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]
hague1cmaeron
That would depend on when it happened. I've heard many things about antisemitism in pre-war Poland but to my knowledge there was never any restriction on their employment. On the other hand his father could have meant the time before Poland regained its independence (I don't know what Russia thought of Jewish doctors). And of course he wouldn't be allowed to work in the hospitals during WWII. He could be also speaking of communist times, there was that whole "Anti-Zionist" campain, when many Jews lost their jobs (although it was mainly jobs connected to politics and administration). Finally, he could have meant it not literally - that Jews were unwelcomed in Tarnopol's hospitals or something.
A thing worth noting about Tarnopol is demography - In 1939 50% of the population was Polish, 40% Jewish and 10% Ukrainian. If half of the population wasn't Polish then I find it unlikely that hospitals were run solely by Poles.
hague1cmaeron
That would depend on when it happened. I've heard many things about antisemitism in pre-war Poland but to my knowledge there was never any restriction on their employment. On the other hand his father could have meant the time before Poland regained its independence (I don't know what Russia thought of Jewish doctors). And of course he wouldn't be allowed to work in the hospitals during WWII. He could be also speaking of communist times, there was that whole "Anti-Zionist" campain, when many Jews lost their jobs (although it was mainly jobs connected to politics and administration). Finally, he could have meant it not literally - that Jews were unwelcomed in Tarnopol's hospitals or something.
A thing worth noting about Tarnopol is demography - In 1939 50% of the population was Polish, 40% Jewish and 10% Ukrainian. If half of the population wasn't Polish then I find it unlikely that hospitals were run solely by Poles.
vetala
31 Mar 2010
History / Karol Wojtyla, the man who become a pope (video) [58]
I loved that movie. Terribly sad, someone dies every 5 minutes. Great music.
I loved that movie. Terribly sad, someone dies every 5 minutes. Great music.
vetala
28 Mar 2010
Genealogy / Seeking Czarniecki family members and ancestors from Lublin, also Margiewicz, Danilowicz and Andrulewicz [77]
beata g
Great. Whom are you telling this anyway?
Nobody in this thread has any problems with Jews, the issue here is not who had what ancestry but rather the hurtful implication that 'the Poles' hate everyone who has any Jewish ancestry.
beata g
Great. Whom are you telling this anyway?
Nobody in this thread has any problems with Jews, the issue here is not who had what ancestry but rather the hurtful implication that 'the Poles' hate everyone who has any Jewish ancestry.
vetala
27 Mar 2010
Genealogy / Seeking Czarniecki family members and ancestors from Lublin, also Margiewicz, Danilowicz and Andrulewicz [77]
And this 'certain sector' is of course 'the Poles', hm?
I've never heard of anyone 'not liking to hear' about Mickiewicz's Jewish mother (who wasn't really Jewish BTW, although she might have had some Jewish ancestry)
Oh, these dastardly Poles...
Trevek: Allegedly, when one scholar tried to write indepth about this she was blocked by a certain sector of the Polish academia.
And this 'certain sector' is of course 'the Poles', hm?
I've never heard of anyone 'not liking to hear' about Mickiewicz's Jewish mother (who wasn't really Jewish BTW, although she might have had some Jewish ancestry)
castellenator: more things that the poles do not like to hear.
Oh, these dastardly Poles...
vetala
22 Mar 2010
History / MAP OF POLAND IN 1880'S [95]
You mean Duchy of Warsaw, which existed for 8 years between 1807 and 1815?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Warsaw
kingdom of warsaw
You mean Duchy of Warsaw, which existed for 8 years between 1807 and 1815?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Warsaw
vetala
21 Mar 2010
Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]
No, they aren't. The proper Polish language is the one used in Poland. 'Busia' or 'Busha' are neologisms and don't figure in any Polish dictionaries. The fact that some word is widely used by Americans of Polish descent does NOT make it a proper Polish word.
Both are correct.
No, they aren't. The proper Polish language is the one used in Poland. 'Busia' or 'Busha' are neologisms and don't figure in any Polish dictionaries. The fact that some word is widely used by Americans of Polish descent does NOT make it a proper Polish word.
vetala
28 Feb 2010
Genealogy / Polish looks? [1410]
Matowy
First of all - everybody has some sort of a fold. It's that thing which covers the upper part of your eyelid. Most people have a small fold but their eyelid is still visible. What we call an "epicanthic fold" is the fold which covers the whole eyelid (it's a bit like having a second eyelid) which causes Asians to look like they had no separate eyelids at all
However, there is also a form of epicanthic fold which non-Asians have - usually it doesn't cover the whole eyelid but only a part of it. People often confuse a 'regular' European fold with the epicanthic fold but I assure you - once you've seen it you definitely notice the difference. A small hint - part of the eyelid (reaching the eyelashes)remains covered at all times, not just when you 'make a face'. It's also visible when the eyes are closed.
Matowy
First of all - everybody has some sort of a fold. It's that thing which covers the upper part of your eyelid. Most people have a small fold but their eyelid is still visible. What we call an "epicanthic fold" is the fold which covers the whole eyelid (it's a bit like having a second eyelid) which causes Asians to look like they had no separate eyelids at all
However, there is also a form of epicanthic fold which non-Asians have - usually it doesn't cover the whole eyelid but only a part of it. People often confuse a 'regular' European fold with the epicanthic fold but I assure you - once you've seen it you definitely notice the difference. A small hint - part of the eyelid (reaching the eyelashes)remains covered at all times, not just when you 'make a face'. It's also visible when the eyes are closed.