News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

@Miloslaw,

If you understand English (which apparently you do), you'd have grasped what I've written and not need to follow up with meaningless commentary meant to do nothing other than play psychology with other posters!

@kaprys, being a Roman Catholic, perhaps you'd get the gist of what I'm saying by recalling that wonderful quote from the New Testament "Hate the sin, but not the sinner". Regarding the books I recommended for your and other's edification which were both written by Jews (which objectively ought to make no difference whatsoever), try Dieter Zimmer's "The Destruction of the Jews", which I'm certain is available in both Polish as well as English translation:-) He is a German gentile who, like Ernst Klee, is a serious historian of the period.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Don't ask me, I'm not a Zionist.

@dolno et al,

Since when is being a "friend" of someone or something the same as not criticizing rationally when one sees something wrong? I've posted this question for nearly as long as this thread has existed, yet have not gotten an answer, almost as though I said nothing.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

@Kaprys,

Interesting that you look for sources of information about Poles "allegedly" being anti-Semitic without stopping to even consider the converse, namely, why were many Jews from the shtettls often anti-Polish.

The Holocaust was not some sort of equal relationship which can merely be reduced to "Look at what YOU did...!" etc.

The materials I listed prior to this post are readily available for your perusal, any time you're interested in learning from standard and acknowledged studies on this subject.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

No, Wielki Polak, I'm not biased against Poles, I'm biased against stupidity and arrogance masquerading as truth.
In fact, I love the Polish language and Chopin's my favorite composer for classical piano....next to the Master (Beethoven), of course:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Anti-ANY group, as with legally stealing someone's inheritance by distributing said funds into joint accounts, for example, is technically not a "crime" per se, it IS though a moral outrage which leads, or often can lead, to further acts which are crimes, such as murder!!

The texts I mentioned above should suffice to quell certain insipient, attention-seeking agitators on PF once and for all. All ya gotta do is read 'em:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

No one is doubting that double standards have always been with us, and regrettably always will be, in all likelihood!
It is though a known fact that Poland was a country with strong anti-Jewish leanings, especially before the Second World War.

For heaven's sake, when people here talk about "sources", I've probably read in total more on this subject than most, for instance "The War Against The Jews" by Lucy Davidowicz, "The Destruction of the European Jews" by Raoul Hilberg, in addition to more books by German non-Jewish historians than most here could shake a stick at, so don't condescend to me.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

...and there were die Geschwister Scholl, Prof. Huber, the plotters in the '44 plot to assassinate Hitler, ALL "PURE" GERMANS!! Each was executed in the most god awful manner.

The point is that only when pushed did the Catholic Church in Europe lift a finger to help the Jews, don't let's gloss over Pope Pius and his role during the War.

Only in the '80's did the Vatican under the great Lolek Wojtyla apologize to the Jews for the millennia of Church-sponsored anti-Semitism.

Please, kaprys and others, don't do me any favors. Reparations cut both ways, and the Claims Conference hasn't been exactly generous to survivors either.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Kaprys, those indeed pointed examples were unfortunately merely the tip of the iceberg, far from representative of traditional Church doctrine.
These valiant clerics were therefore the exception, but not the rule.

The story of Jesus driving out the Jewish money changers etc. could scarcely be processed as some sort of parable by the ignorant or semi-literate churchgoing masses throughout Europe. This simply fueled anti-Jewish hostility.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Chicanery and cynicism will never delute the facts that the Holocaust was most venal crime ever perpetrated on humanity, if nothing else, owing to its methodical, cold-blooded ruthlessness.

There are "fakers" and have been throughout history. Why should the Holocaust be any different?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Nice try, Crow.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

This is indeed a sticky wicket, and getting stickier! Poland was obviously NOT the instigator of the Holocaust, but was surely not blameless in allowing numerous private citizens to kowtow to Hitler's anti-Semitic policies either. Where was the Church, for example, in all of this?

Their awful record of stoking the flames of anti-Semitism for centuries clearly speaks for itself...and it's not done speaking, believe me.

Finkelstein's book is a cheap shot at the actual history of the Holocaust and seems more appealing in terms of its shock value than anything else.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

@Miloslaw, as far as letting bygones be bygones concerning WWII, the Shoah and reparations, when is the "other side" willing to do the same?

When visiting Dachau Concentration Camp many years ago, I found I'd lost my way leading towards the main grounds and innocently asked a middle-aged woman directions (in German, as apparently she didn't understand English). "Why d'you people always have to remind us?" she snapped, evidently annoyed by my query,

to which I retorted "Because you people will never let us forget!".

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Crow to learn to write clear English. Then we talk ideas.
:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

About Maurice, that Milch fella, Dr. Theodor Lewald who headed the Nazi Olympic Committee and any number of others, I am well aware.
Rosenberg however, even Hitler himself......TOTALLY FABRICATED FROM WHOLE CLOTH!!!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Ahemm, then by your definition Walter von Darre (Agriculture Minister) who had Huegenot French forebearers along with the half-American Baldur von Schirach weren't "Germans" either, is that it?

Rosenberg WAS NOT JEWISH and yes, he had a Baltic accent in his German, but was of Aryan pedigree, for pity's sake!!! Geezloueez, Eichmann wrote he was teased in school as "Der Rabbiner" (the rabbi) because apparently he had dark hair and eyes, but was obviously a non-Jew also, not to mention an actual Mischling, Luftwaffe General Erhard Milch etc.... who in fact WAS a quarter Jew.

Get your facts straight at least.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Apparently, you either didn't read or understand my post of late that Rosenberg was an ARYAN German of pure Baltic extraction.
You're probably just toying around here and knew it all along, right?
LOL

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Jews killed innocents too, no argument. Let's though not forget about the historical context. As with the Holocaust, it wasn't the Jews who somehow mysteriously "chose" their fate, as many Holocausts deniers such as the Irvings, Fred Leuchtners and others of this world have insisted!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

@G, you are mistaken regarding the fate of the Jews. Just read "Mein Kampf"....if you can!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Not as yet. Did you ever check out >Der ewige Jude< (1935) by Fritz Hippler??

Think you might change your mind a wee bit after you do. Couldn't sleep soundly for several days following.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

The truth is that the Jews were already as it is slated for total extermination. Therefore, I focus on Polish collaborators, since again, as long as the gentile Poles remained in their place, didn't make waves so to speak, and obeyed their German "superiors", they were allowed to live.

Such was never the case with the Jews (check out the Wannsee Conference transcripts if you don't take my word for it; 11,000,000 intended originally for annihilation!!).

Their fate had been sealed by the Nazis ever since Hitler took power and so they were forced into far more dire straits and had to to whatever they had to do to simply stay alive!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Easy to simplify history, far harder to understand, indeed to finally accept, its complexities.

No, I'm not saying for the umpteenth time that Polish complicitors were "the majority". All I am saying is that for as many collaborators on the other side, Poles too had their share of them as well.

Miroslaw is of course historically correct in saying that in no other European country was the punishment for aiding and abetting Jews in flight more severe than in Poland.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Let's just level the playing field a little, that's all I was trying to say.

While Germany committed countless, unspeakable atrocities against humanity, regrettably, Poland too had her share of turncoats and traitors.
Jewish kapos aren't a fair comparison, since in the first place, they represented the minority and in the second place, nearly EVERYONE played the Black Market in those days, then as now.

Not a pretty picture once again, but sad to say, it's the truth.

Language / Short Polish<->English translations [1050]

Thanks, NoToForeigners!

Sorry I waited this long to respond. Always grateful for the assistance:-)

While we're on the subject, are you familiar with the expression "On jest dobrym gosciem.", which I was told by a native Polish-American means something on the order of

"He's a good egg.", as one might say in American slang.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

I scarcely advocate these sorts of "restrictions", as you term them. However, rampant denial of truth ain't so hot either.

You claim to be a thinking person, Ironside, yet I'm still waiting for evidence of such, and figure I'll be waiting a long time!

Poles, I might remind you, don't have to justify themselves whenever they've visited abroad, regretfully awaiting somebody from behind a corner listening to them speak their language and being called "Dirty #$%%%-krauts!", or worse!!

Germany remains stigmatized to this very day, paying for the sins of the fathers. Is that fair either?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Germany has been so traumatized that it's certainly understandable that the gov't tends to go a bit over the top by our standards in prohibiting even innocently joking about Hitler, as was the case with those Chinese tourists several months back, who got into some hot water with the police when one of them started doing a mock goose step right in front of the Brandenburg Gate:-)

Poland might well draw a lesson here.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

One can love someone, yet criticize them too. Unconditional love needn't necessarily always mean unconditional surrender to stupidity, bigotry or oppression, does it?
Seems many of us have at best a rather parochial notion of "love".

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

I've known about them since college, not exactly recently!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Any Pole to whom Irena Sendler, Jan Karski, and Leopold Socha are completely foreign, meaningless names, should go back to third grade...and graduate!
:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

And all I'm saying is that it was exclusively the Jews of Poland (the Sinti-Roma too, I'll grant you) whom the Nazis slated for total annihilation! The gentile Poles were naturally slaughtered as well, although were technically permitted to live, albeit doomed to a life of eternal slavery to their German overlords.

Neither scenario's pretty, however, the non-Jews were in the end at least given chance to survive intact, so long as they kowtowed to the Nazis.

The distinction while subtle, remains significant.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Folks, the Jews were under the gun and did what they'd always done ever since the Middle Ages drove them into becoming usurious pawnbrokers, forbidden from joining the "Christian" guilds; they did whatever necessary in order to survive.

Leave us here not debate the sheer idiocy of what's the difference between Jews killing Nazis vs. Nazis killing Jews, 'cuz it's lose-lose no matter how you slice it.

Hell, even their own people abandoned them in their hour of direst need!! You don't believe me, just check out that movie "Nirgendwo in Afrika", when

some German-Jewish refugees were politely but insistently informed by a local Jewish official that they weren't welcome to stay there and might have to return to Germany...or emigrate elsewhere, like the States (...which didn't want many of them either, you know).

Let's stop casting stones before we know all the facts!