Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
No Paulina, you will not fight against me because I ignore all the leftist feminist and other extreme movements. Real men just don't gaf about the issues that women want to make up, artificially inflate and complain about. Have your jobs, have your movements, and do whatever you want. There is a very large portion of women who are tired of the agenda driven movement. They want to be women and have a man who not only takes care of them and protects them, but respects them. They want what comes naturally to most people. The role reversal experiment fails, and will continue to fail for so many reasons. But when women start being drafted, or conscripted, or forced to fight for their country like men are, you can sign me up for all the feminist $hit you want. Unitil then, the only right a man has that a woman does not is the right to die protecting them and everyone else. But you know, birthrates and all that stuff have nothing to do with what men want or whats best for any civilization.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
Women are most times better equipped. I stated the reasoning for this view being the environment in which they are raised. But you now bring the population decline argument full circle. I will explain.

All the talk about competing with men, is at the very center of population decline. Women not wanting, or delaying childbirth is really the issue. A society cannot survive without children being born. So, you want a career? Ok. There is a price for everyone to pay. The price is not just that womans to bear. Society bears the cost in its reduction.

On to the alimony. In the US, most states do not have alimony, they have what is called Child Support. Child support is a mathematic formula used to calculate how much of a man or womans income goes to pay for raising a child in the event of whichever is given physical custody. This formula is just that, only a mathematic formula. So, if a parent is very successful making say $50 thousand USD per month, the parent having custody is given roughly $15 thousand per month for child support. Someone still needs to tell me how it is possible to spend that kind of money raising a child. The wife will get the house if she gets the child or children. People with money, have either paid off the house, or it is such a big house, that a single parent would never need the space. The woman will also get the car, half of retirement, and half of everything else unless there is a prenup or she has her own money. When the child is of school age, and the parent is working again, not only do the payments continue, but they get raised every two years upon court review, regardless of how much the custodial parent is making. In the US with this formula and system, divorce is profitable for the custodial parent. Before you say $50 K per month income is extreme, in the US that kind of money for a successful person is really not uncommon.

You bring up the point of the person having to ask another for money in the relationship. If a person doesn't get that stuff sorted out prior to starting a relationship, then it is their own fault, whether it is a man or woman it doesn't matter.

Of course, women want to work. Of course, they have passions and want to pursue things. The problem is that in life, you cannot have everything. If you want one thing you have to sacrifice something else. You cannot have it all, man or woman, you simply cannot have your cake and eat it.

As for WW2 working comments, I will only say women filled the manufacturing roles for men. Nearly every building or infrastructure project was completely stopped when women could not fill those roles. There is nothing wrong with a woman not being able to do something as well as a man, nothing wrong with a man not being able to do something as well as a woman and that is the problem with feminism. They do not want to admit that men and women both have things they are better at. XX and XY, it is simple. Traditional roles moved society forward for centuries. When you try to fix what has worked, you usually just fvck things up, and that applies to everything.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
No Jon violent crime studies are specialized. They are only one year in most cases. And clearly you do not read what others post. You just defend your uneducated position with more babble that's already been covered. You do not address the facts of violent crimes that are universal regardless of country. Your opinion, not based in fact, is all that matters, much like the radical left in the US. This is divisive, and not constructive. Not even wasting more time responding to this, it is not conversation, it is simply steadfast protection of opinion.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
I said in most cases. Most cases is not definitive. Really the feminist bull$hit is irritating. Can't you and others have a normal discussion without trying to twist statements to fit your own agenda? And then people wonder why there is no compromise between right and left.

How do you profit from having kids? Please tell me in what world that it takes a child support payment of more than 3K USD per month to raise a kid when there is no house payment and no car payment while the mother also works. Explain that to me and how that is fair or just. I have three children, and never has it ever cost 3K per month to raise any of them. Yet, the courts take a percentage of a mans pay regardless of how much he makes, and that is fair or just?

What is usually in the best interest is not always in the best interest. Stop reading what you want to understand and read what is actually written.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Who are you? You are no legal authority to make that opinion. If it takes 6 months its neither effective or appropriate. What if a person who wanted one for protection and was waiting for 5 months, a woman, was then stabbed to death by her ex boyfriend before getting her permit. Most violent crimes are crimes of passion. Most victims are not random. I went to law school. I studied both prosecutorial procedure, and defense procedure. I had a full year of education on violent crime defense, prosecution, and investigation. You want to talk like an authority and all you are is an opinionated activist. And you probably wonder why people tell you to FO all the time.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
There is no definitive answer to that question. Unfortunately, the way the laws are written, antiquated in my opinion, they are written to lean toward the mother. It is what it is. Nothing is fair, especially to children. The children unfortunately are used as pawns by each side.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
If a green light from a local police chief is a problem, then that should only realistically take place in major metropolitan areas. If I am in Sanok for instance it should be a same day procedure if everything else is in order. Warsaw or Krakow or another large city it would likely take more time, and that is reasonable.

The self-protection one doesn't make sense to me. If you are in danger, chances are you would already be a victim of some kind of crime by the time you got to the application process. So I might agree with changing that part. Proof, is subjective. What I see as danger, someone else may not, what someone else see's as danger I may see as a nothingburger. Only if there are standards set for proofs can there be a process like that. Admittedly I do not know if there are standards or not. Frankly anyone using that reason is only attracting unwanted attention to themselves anyway.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
Change in which requirement then? As for the bank accounts, I have opened three here and there is always a delay of a day or two. It is just another example of slow and tedious restrictions that everyone has to deal with needlessly. Delays for anything are simply needless especially with how much more tech savvy Europe is when it comes to banking and security.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
Women in most cases should get primary custody, I would agree. However, the father should get the kids at least two weekends a month and every other holiday. The woman should not be able to keep the father from seeing the kids. And the woman should not be able to profit from simply having kids. Some women though should never get custody, and yet the laws around the world are written with the presumption that living with the mother will be the best situation.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
Another feminist swipe at what science says is fact. It is a fact that women/girls are raised differently than men/boys. The whole environment in which they are raised, socialized, and schooled is different. Maybe women should stand up to pi$$ now? Men and women are different, and no socially constructed idea is going to change that. XX and XY is all there is and they are different. Women are not as equipped as men for manual labor, that is a fact. Or there are millions of female construction workers hiding on the worksites around the world. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging those differences and then working around them.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
It's called modernizing. You don't think that streamlining the process is change? Wouldn't it be nice if you could open a bank account in Poland without having to wait a few days? It's called modernizing. Maybe being able to drive away in a new car after you pay for it instead of waiting for someone in some office to process paperwork who might be on holiday or call in sick? Maybe the appearance of change is in fact change.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Your definition and my definition of "significant" are different. Any time 25% of people are not happy, that is a large enough group to recognize and try to keep satisfied.

You asked me a general question about legislation and I answered it. You did not ask me about this particular legislation.

Not once have I called for lowering standards of gun ownership. Streamlining the process is not weakening the process. Just like streamlining the car purchasing process is needed. Buy a car in the US or Canada and you drive away with new plates, registration and insurance in less than two hours if financed, less than an hour if paid in cash. Try buying a gun in US or Canada and have a criminal record and you will be denied in less than 15 minutes in 99% of the cases. This can be the same way in Poland through the new ETIAS starting up this year. The whole EU on the same background check network makes this possible and simply smart. Dont get through ETIAS and no need to continue the process, simple. Get through it and you move on to the psyche portion. Get that done, go file the documents and get your license. Shouldn't take more than a few weeks that way. Doesn't weaken the laws on the books at all, and it may make them stronger.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Legislation, good legislation, should reflect a consideration of all sides. Good legislation is recognizing that the majority is never perfect in its decision making regardless of which side has the majority. Majority decisions are not always the right way to address a problem.

Maybe PiS would stay in power a little longer if they allowed for some civil agreements between same sex couples to be recognized legally for instance. Maybe acknowledging teachers are underpaid, and meeting them in the middle for a pay raise would make PiS look a lot better and be seen as good legislation? Maybe the opposition acknowledging that 500+ is a program that cant be taken away or reduced now that its in place is a good thing? All kinds of scenarios that can acknowledge the other sides opinion or position and create legislation that is acceptable for everyone.

The whole winner take all position is bull$hit baby politics. It is what gets countries in trouble, like the US, like Poland. And make no mistake Poland is in trouble for a lot of reasons that you and I would likely agree on. Eliminating this issue, with improved action planning is smart politics because it will not get in the way of negotiating other issues. The control freaks on both sides need to wake TF up.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
While you can't see it making a difference, it at least acknowledges the other sides concerns and gives them something even if it is only a small thing. I have never said to relax gun laws concerning the qualifications for ownership. I think the timelines for processing potential owners are simply insane. Those alone discourage ownership, could encourage illegal purchases, and inhibit people who want to pursue shooting sports, hunting or self-defense training from pursuing those. Making the process easier, and timelier is better for everyone on both sides. Gun ownership is allowed in Poland, anyone meeting the criteria can make the purchase and application. What I suggest is not only reasonable, but really quite overdue. If a criminal wants a gun in Poland he will get a gun, it is the same everywhere. With the age of 3D printers, and spare parts on the internet anyone can make their own gun in a few clicks. A better system will keep that from happening more often.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
I think it looks the same as it does today with the exception that it should be accelerated. 6 months or longer is simply not acceptable in today's technologically advanced world. The fact that it takes a week or more after buying a new car to get license plates and take delivery of the car is also laughable. I am not saying that any of the requirements should change at all. In fact I would propose that when things move more quickly that every firearm purchase be required to also purchase a biometric gun safe for that weapon. Firearm ownership should not be so restricted that people cannot get them in a reasonable time period. A person could even have the option of paying for an accelerated permit as an option. This would not only satisfy those that want to own a weapon, but would probably create more jobs to sort through applications and more income for licensing. There are reasonable solutions to be found on both sides. There is no one sided winner in a gun control argument, only agreements that do not give either side everything and allow both sides to think they got something out of the deal.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
Did I say anything about pleasing any group? I asked why not consider the opposition groups position? Why not at least look at it? The rigidity of the 70% is exactly why any remaining percentage would find them intolerable. It is exactly why the "opposition" hates PiS so much, and vice versa. Can people not even learn from mistakes that their own political leaders make every day? There is no good law or rules where all sides are not considered. Everyone here wants to ignore 23 to 30% of the country, and that is pretty fvcked up thinking.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Paulina
Why dont you care what some people in Poland want? Why ignore any percentage of the people's wants? 23% is still a few million people, but if only 70% do not want change, then potentially 30% could. I thanked you for that poll, but you didn't read my post.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
Again, another leftist feminist comment concerning fair treatment by the courts. Women want the children, the house, half the man's savings, half his retirement, and alimony while keeping him from seeing his kids. Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?

I said being stay at home fathers is not something they are as well prepared for as women. That is a fact. Not every man can do it. Not every woman is good at it. Want to go to extremes, we can continue to do that.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
I am saying that being a stay at home father is not something men are trained for or equipped to do in most cases. It does not come naturally and takes them out of their natural roles. Men are simply not as emotionally equipped or nurturing as women are naturally. Anyone saying otherwise is retarded or an extreme feminist.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
francs-tireurs? Really? You want to take an antiquated WW2 term and use it in a modern discussion? Thats a stretch to say the least. The punishment for a guerilla fighter from who exactly? NATO? Poland? France? It is not even applicable in this discussion.

If September 12 is a weak example, which is the only example of Article 5 being activated in history, then you need to find a safer option. I hope no other country has to experience a September 11 type of attack, you have no idea what it was like to watch and live through it. Your grandparents might know something, but Poland has not been attacked now in more than 80 years. Imagine Warsaw being lit up by Russia and it taking a month or more for NATO and primarily the US to respond. Its a terrible thought.

As for record checks, all that is about to become instant with the new ETIAS program. I have gone through the process myself twice in the last five years. I understand the complications of cross border checks.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
A records check in the US literally takes less than an hour in most cases. For the 100th time, I think the psych checks are good and should be done for everyone. My point it 6 months to process is just stupid. You have a point with background checks in Poland though, they do take months, they check every EU member database, they do check Interpol, and they are extremely thorough.

If a NATO member is invaded it will take an average response time of 6 weeks to 2 months before NATO troops arrive in numbers enough to help. September 12, 2001 Article 5 was unanimously activated. It was not until October 7th that the first bombs began falling on Afghanistan, and the US military was already in the area for several years when it took nearly a month to respond. I wouldn't be counting on Article 5 to save anyone in a time frame that would make anyone feel safe at night.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
I was never talking about women not working. I was talking about women not having to go into the work place. And if taking care of a child is not considered working then that is a bad way of seeing things. I went into my office on weekends because I wanted to, not because I had to. Working from home was largely at night. I wanted the money and the family, so you have to do more. There is a very big difference in how Poles see work and how Americans see work. This is not a criticism of you, but Poles generally do not think out of the box enough to solve these kinds of problems. I do not know how your area is with its rigid work regulations. If I were in that situation I would simply look to change the situation.

Maybe the expression was weird for you. In the US there are expressions simply saying that the mark someone leaves on the world, his family and those who know him can be measured by how many people come to his funeral and visit his grave.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Barney
What if someone wants to take up skeet shooting? Bird hunting? Game hunting? Maybe they tried it in another place and would like to continue at home.

@jon357
Thanks for making my point in your #1900 post. You are completely incorrect when you say gun control does not work. Because it does. Background checks are almost instant, and never more than 72 hours. 99% of all illegal shootings are performed by people with illegal or illegally obtained weapons. It is extremely rare that a legally obtained weapon is used in a criminal act when you look at the overall population. That said, I agree there are too many careless gun owners, and that is a big problem which is why I said from the beginning any gun purchase should accompany a mandatory smart gun safe purchase.

Amiga makes a great point. The number of guns available on the black market in the future in Poland will be astronomical, and they will be cheap. So when the criminals have them what do you think will happen?

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
Anyone can do what I did, women included. In the US children are in school by 5 yrs old. In preschool usually around 3 or 4. If you have a degree and are well regarded, spending that time with children is a social benefit for everyone including the parents, but most importantly the children. If you do not see how fvcked up society is from absentee parents, too early to daycare and other problems created by the greed and materialist needs, then you are not looking honestly at things.

How is 5 days a week not staying at home? What kind of math are you using?

You expose your thoughts on old age as being monetary driven. My expression was meant to convey that my children, grandchildren, etc. will have thought enough about the life I gave them and lived with them, that they will visit the grave. That is what close knit families think about. Not once have I mentioned old age or children helping out. North American people don't look at their children in this way, and I have yet to meet Poles who see their parents or children in this manner. If anything I see more Parents in Poland working harder and longer to leave their children more.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
There is a need to streamline and modernize them yes, absolutely. It should never take six or more months for any able minded and body human being to get an approval regardless of what their reasoning is. Now, if Poland were invaded like Ukraine was, do you think Poland will just be giving away arms to everyone who wants one, or will everyone have to wait six months for approval? And once you cross that bridge, how likely will it be that people turn their weapons in after finding them useful in defending their lives and property?

You deliberately use the word weaken, when no one else has. You deliberately twist words and situations to fit your agenda and beliefs. And if you ever have to face an invading force, will likely be one cowering in the basement while your neighbors are killing soldiers to keep you safe. You know how many sane, able minded and able-bodied men and women in the US kill people in an unprovoked situation or a situation not requiring self-defense? Less than one tenth of one percent of legal gun owners. Legal gun ownership should not be something you have to wait for a bureaucrat to get off his a$$ walk across the room, get a stamp, and put a stamp and set of initials on 50 sheets of paper. It should be a process that is easy to understand, and easy to complete while maintaining safety standards acceptable to all people, not just people who have no education or experience with weapons.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
You have no clue.

@mafketis
Look up Football tailgating in the US. You will see tens of thousands of fans from both teams in the parking lot of huge stadiums drinking, eating and enjoying the game day atmosphere together. Fights do happen, but not like hooligans. These are for the most part the most working class, blue collar people in the USA. Sport fans in the USA do not operate drug, gambling and other illegal operations like in Europe. We leave that to the mostly European criminal organizations.

You make a great point about religion, and I would extend that to family and other elements of a solid culture. If the foundation is not there, then chances are what is built on just loose stones will eventually crumble.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
What you described is what I would call an optimal family situation. Raise the kids then go back to work when they are in school. Optimal for the children for sure, optimal for the father because his role doesn't have to change to one that's not natural for him, and in the long rum optimal for mom because she gets to enjoy raising a family and gets to go back to work. Not perfect, but its pretty damn good. I am happy for you that you had this experience.

@Lenka
"who the hell gives a damn about that?"

A lot of people do now. People are realizing that the chase of career's and material things, while sacrificing a family or witnessing their children grow up is not worth it. Everyone thinks about their legacy and mortality as they get older, anyone who doesn't is simply not normal.

While in Poland I give you that stay at home fathers are rare, but not as rare as you think. In todays remote work climate it is becoming more and more common. It is very common in the US. I stayed at home 5 days a week when my first was born, worked remotely, and then went into the office on weekends. Was not a problem and I am glad I did it. That was nearly 30 years ago.

The phrase "modern women" is a leftist and feminist label. I try not to label women or men in general unless its politically. But the concept of a modern woman was largely created in the US and has been exported around the world. In case the rest of the world has not been watching, the modern woman concept is failing in the US. When the majority of marriages fail, close to 60% now, it is largely due to nontraditional roles being forced on both men and women. Not everything is black and white. Children need to be educated in a way that teaches them not about "modern" concepts of roles, but of traditional ones as well. Just because things have changed for women in many ways does not mean that all changes have been great or that all changes have moved society forward.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
I agree, but I think that's an oversimplification of the issue. It comes down to values. What are the values of men, women and couples. For too long, in my opinion, values have been sacrificed in pursuit of money from both sexes, and the pursuit of women's "rights". Not blaming women here, just giving a point of view. So, I ask the general question to you, what "right" does a man have that a woman does not?

While many are complaining about traditional values and traditional roles within the family dynamic, there has to come a point where we all recognize how the changes in the family dynamic over the last 30 years, have affected the birth rates of Poland and other countries.

I appreciate that three women in your group were talking and I appreciate their opinions. When does the man's opinion come into the discussion, or what men want, and what children need. Lets not forget, that not all pregnancies are planned. Lets also not forget that people, in todays world, often get caught up in their own goals, and lose track of time. A friend of mine, female, said just the other day, that she just realized she may not be able to have children now at 39 safely and she can't believe she forgot to have children younger. She now has huge regret chasing a career and not having children. A nice car, clothes and vacations won't be visiting your grave. There is just not enough thought being given to the family today, and too much emphasis on things and accumulating things instead in having a life.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@pawian
Please tell me one specific "right" that men have that women do not. Just one. Not being a smart a$$ here just asking the question.

Birth rates are on the decline for many reasons. Feminism and women's rights activism is part of it, but not all of it. So many facets to this discussion no one could ever cover them all. But a lot of good points made here concerning income equality and other items. While declining birth rates are the problem, what is best for the children actually being born is also a big part of the problem that many do not wat to discuss.

@Miloslaw
Makes some very important points about families, raising children and other dynamics. Isn't what's best for the child the most important part of this discussion? Its a scientific fact that when mothers stay home with their children in their first formative years that the children have better lives, do better in school, are more well adjusted behaviorally, and have better relationships with their parents over the course of their lives. All the talk about population decline seems to be focused on what the adults want and not what children need, and for me that is the bigger problem.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
I call it a train station, where I grew up that is what it is called. Your attempt to "correct" me using (sic) and then calling it a railway station is just another stupid attempt to make yourself look like you are some intelligent being. Your discourse is twisted and simply based on limited life experience and your own far left agenda.

@Paulina
Thank you for those poll results. While I generally do not trust polls, example the last two US presidential elections, the numbers you present are at least ground for discussion. While 70% do not want gun laws liberalized, 30% is not a number that can be ignored. 57% feeling less safe also means that 43% feel more safe of have no opinion. My point being, that while in a poll there is always one side that looks stronger than another, it is ignoring the other sides thinking and position that leads to trouble later. Every side's opinion needs to be considered. People who oppose gun laws being changed have a right to their opinion, as do people who support change.

The problem is when people say things like there is no appetite for change, when there clearly is if 30% say so. While not a majority, that would represent millions of people. Drilling down numbers needs to be done. How did men respond, how did women respond, what are the age and income demographics. Where are the yes and no responses coming from, what are the beliefs behind these responses.

Maybe the term "liberalized" is the wrong term to use concerning this issue. Maybe the term should be "expedited" or something along those lines. Because you also make a great point about the gun ranges and how many there are now. While I actively go in Krakow I had no idea how many there were. 450 gun ranges is a lot for a country the size of Poland. That is a lot of people who are interested in shooting and or training how to shoot. In the US the gun laws require a background check, that is electronic and very fast. In Poland there is a background check and mental health assessment. I like the mental health assessment component and think it should be universal. That said, it should not take 6 months or more to get through the process in Poland.