History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Honestly? It's not an issue for me lol But when I see people like berni23 and jon357 having such a big problem with Poland being called Central (at least when Poles call it this way lol) and being so ignorant at the same time this is when I usually intervene.

Of course I wouldn't do that if facts weren't on my side, so to speak :)
I think that people in the West (and that's both Western Europe and the US) usually think of Poland as being Eastern Europe becuase of the Eastern bloc. You could see that in jon357 and rozumiemnic's posts. Rozumiemnic wrote that "politically there isn't really such a thing" like Central Europe :) So you see what I mean... ;)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]

:))))

The funny thing is that I think of myself as... European :) That's what I think of Germans, the British, Greeks, Serbians, Russians. We all share common culture and in most cases: big language family (Indo-European languages).

Once I talked to a Japanese guy here in my city who was all around Europe and was surprised that there's some division into the East and to the West. And differences in religion lol "Aren't you all Christians?? We have some Christians in Japan too!" :)) He said that all European cities look the same to him, the same architecture, the same people lol So I guess it depends on the point of view :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]

Why do some people on PF have such a problem with Poles being called Central Europeans?? :)))

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


And where did you read that Slavic languages are considered only Eastern?

"Throughout Central and Eastern Europe and Russia"
(I don't quite get it why there's no mention of Southern Europe, though lol)

From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages



Now, if Poland was geographically in Eastern Europe and West Slavic languages didn't differ from East Slavic languages I wouldn't even utter a word as far as classification of languages is considered.

So, could someone explain it to me why is Polish, Czech and Slovak considered Eastern and by whom?


As Harry would say: you're lying, berni23 :) I didn't claim that I think Poland is the epicenter of the world nor did anyone else claim that.

If you really think that saying Poland is a Central European country stems from thinking of Poland as "the epicenter of the world" then you have some serious problem O_O

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


LOL
OMG, you're right - I didn't even notice that! ;D
DeviantART is an art site, there's definitely nothing scientific about it lol:
ay-deezy.deviantart.com/art/Globaly-ethnic-map-of-Europe-261818018

From the artist's comment:


Oh dear ;D

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


There's no such thing.
Languages of Europe are divided into:

1. Indo-European languages:

a) Albanian
b) Armenian
c) Baltic languages
d) Celtic
e) Germanic
f) Greek
g) Indo-Iranian languages
h) Romance languages
i) Slavic

2. Languages not from the Indo-European family:

From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Europe


What do you mean?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]

Indeed: /wiki/Romanian_language

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Really?
I can repeat myself then, no problem :)
Simple question: are Finnish and Portuguese both Western languages?


Quote from: /wiki/Finns

Finnish belongs to the Uralic language family and is most closely related to Karelian and Estonian.
Portuguese is Iberian Romance language.
The Finnish and the Portuguese people even look different. In terms of looks probably Poles and Germans are more alike :)

So how would you call Finnish language? (the Uralic language family)
Estonian? (the Uralic language family)
Hungarian? (the Uralic language family)

Western? Eastern? Central?


Then why are you posting it?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


First of all, I was also discussing with jon357, not only with you, and so I "brought religion, alphabets and even architecture".
Secondly, there's no such thing like "Eastern Europe" in terms of ethnicity and language, just like there's no such thing like "Western Europe" in terms of ethnicity and language as I've just proven in my previous post.

Besides, if we would take your map into account we could still divide Europe into Central, Eastern and Southern:

Polish, Czech and Slovak languages are clearly Central.

And, look, Sweden and Finland are right above Poland! Aren't they Eastern by any chance, in terms of geography? lol

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Terms "Western Europe", "Central Europe" and "Eastern Europe" are broader terms and aren't only based on geography, ethnicity and language.

If they were, country like Greece wouldn't be considered Western. Greek language belongs to Hellenic languages and Greece is in the South of Europe and it belongs to the Balkans together with Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, etc.

What the Finnish people with their Finnish language from Uralic language family have to do with Italians or the Portuguese? They're closer to Karelian people living in Russia than to them. But Finland, Italy and Portugal are considered Western, yes?

Even the Slavic nations, based on their ethnicity, language and culture can be divided into West Slavs, East Slavs and South Slavs. I didn't come up with this division, you know :) Professionalists did.

So, again, what about such countries like:
Hungary
Romania
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Albania

Are these countries: Central, Western or Eastern?
They have to be called somehow, they're not "Martian Europe" after all, right? :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]

As I thought - you don't want to name them.


So, according to you Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Poland, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia and Ukraine are Eastern Europe, yes?

Then what about such countries like:
Hungary
Romania
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Albania

Are these countries: Central, Western or Eastern?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Liar, liar, as Harry would write :) Not even once have you answered my question. You've just posted some maps that were contradicting each other.

You're not able to name Eastern European countries. Or you don't wan't to name them - I wonder why? :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Berni23, berni23, you still haven't answered my elementary question: which countries do you consider Eastern European? :)


What do you mean by that?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


I've never claimed Poland is in the West. What I'm writing all the time is that Poland is Central Europe.

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


No, actually I'm educating people about Eastern Europe, as it seems you guys just don't have a clue, and I know a thing or two :)

What's wrong, Westerners don't like to learn about other cultures?


Don't worry, sweetie, I'm not going to take away your precious West! :D


Did you know that the first man in space was sent not by Germans, not by French and not even by the British?? :D
He was sent by Russians! His name was Yuri Alekseyevich Gagarin - I'm sure they teach you in the West such basic things :))))

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]

One of the differences between East European and Central European culture/tradition is the fact that Eastern Europeans start celebrating Christmas today! It's because Orthodox Churches follow the Julian calendar: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

We follow the Gregorian calendar: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar


The Julian calendar is much older than the Gregorian, it was used in the first centuries of Christianity.

Orthodox Christians during Christmas Eve supper share prosphora instead of Christmas wafer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosphora

According to Wikipedia Christmas wafer originated in Poland and is used only in Central Europe: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_wafer

So, for Orthodox Christians the New Year is still to come! Russians celebrate the New Year twice! :D

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_New_Year

And something that is completely weird for Poles - Russians have Christmas tree and they exchange presents on the New Year!:

Btw, there's about 550-600 000 Orthodox Christians in Poland.

In case there are any Orthodox Christians on this forum from whichever country, I wish you:
С Рождеством Христовым!
Wesołych Świąt!
Merry Christmas!
:)))

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Different? You mean "difference"? It doesn't make the slightest difference concerning what?


You keep repeating that over and over again, but you're not able to prove it or at least explain what you mean.
What is Eastern about Polish culture?
Art and architecture are elements of culture.
I was asking you what is Eastern about Polish architecture. You weren't able to answer that question.
To make it easier for you I've asked you which of the Western architecture styles you can find in Russia.
Your answer was: "Most of them".
So, what are those "most of Western architecture styles" in Russia? Do you even have the slightest idea what you're writing about?


LOL Exactly :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


And as you probably understand, jon357, I don't mean that tiny patch of Russian territory that is called Kaliningrad nowadays ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nigsberg_Cathedral

OK, that's it for today, good night :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Really? Romanesque? Gothic? Renaissance? Could you show or name examples?


I'm not sure what you mean?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Jon, which of the Western architecture styles can you find in Russia?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


We'll see.


Yeah, I hate that too ;)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]

That would be nice ;)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


By whom? By you? :)


Jon, just because you say you're right it doesn't make you right ;)
Do you know why I proposed architecture for the topic of our discussion? Because I've spent 5 years studying history of art and architecture, I've graduated from an art school with top marks and I've visited some countries in Western and Central Europe for the sole purpose of sightseeing, so I have some idea about what I'm writing.

Poland had all the Western styles of architecture. From Romanesque architecture to Art Nouveau - have your pick.
Now, which of the Western architecture styles can you find in Russia?


I have a dry eye syndrome resulting from Sjögren's syndrome. So, no, it's not laziness... I'm a bit disadvantaged in the terms of reading, you see. If I could, I would read the whole thread. It's not always easy to admit to your weaknesses :) Taking part in this discussion is already a challenge...


No, it doesn't.

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


No, jon, I'm not gonna read 23 pages, sorry. You weren't lazy when you wrote that Poland is Eastern in basically everything so don't be lazy in proving it. At least couple of sentences, some photos, come on :) I've proposed you just one topic for discussion - Polish architecture.


Well, maybe a mosque could have something like that :)
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meczet_w_Bohonikach

I guess Poland is Middle East since we have mosques too ;)


Now that's cool - could make photos of each? :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Me too :)) I was born in Poland, I live here all my life and I visited Western and Central European countries, but I'm not sure what he's talking about. Maybe he's writing about Orthodox churches?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


So agriculture can be Eastern too? xD You've got me completely confused about what you understand as "landscape".
Do you mean: nature
Or: nature and architecture
Or maybe: only architecture?


I know how it's called in English, but I wanted to know whether you mean by that an Orthodox/Greek Catholic Church? This is how it's called in Polish - "cerkiew". A Catholic church is "kościół".


No, don't be lazy :) You wrote that, so now explain why you "think/pretend" it is.
In order not to encumber you too much - let's start with architecture, since you've mentioned "onion-domed church" :)
What is Eastern about Polish architecture? Explain, please :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


xD
I'm just as crushed by this assessment as Grzegorz is ;)))


Well, it's just shows how little (very little, really...) you know about me (yet you're quick to judge).
I don't have a "cultural cringe" and I'm not a nationalist. I'm a liberal by Polish standards, I vote for PO and pretty much detest PiS lol Not enough? I'm tolerant as far as nationality, race, and religion is concerned. I was very happy when Obama was elected and my eyes get all wattery every time I hear 'I Have a Dream' speech on TV ;) I've spent at least 5 years defending Russians and Russia (and East Slavs) from Poles on the internet (and in real life too). Not enough? I'm all for ecuminism of Christian denominations, I even went to Germany for a youth gathering of Taizé Community. I absolutely love how the Orthodox churches look like :) I also don't downgrade any other religions or cultures. I believe Judaism and Islam are Christianity's sister religions and it always pains me when we are at our throats.

My uncle is Ukrainian :)
I have Russian friends :)
Oh, and I have nothing against gays or lesbians too! Can you imagine? ;)
That's me in the jist, more or less.


In what way is Warsaw Eastern Europe?


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landscape

Now, in what way landscape in Poland is more "Eastern" than, let's say, in Germany?


What are you talking about? o_O
Squirrels and rabbits in Poland are more Eastern than in Germany? xD


Onion-domed church - you mean "cerkiew"?
And when you come back, tomorrow for example, will you explain why you consider Polish "culture, cuisine, tradition, language, history, architecture, landscape, economic output and geography" - as Eastern? :)

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


I've Google it and I'm definitely not suffering from that lol


Yes, we share Pizza with Italians too, as the rest of the world. But the rest of the world doesn't share saurkraut with the Germans ;) Or does it?

We also share religion, alphabet, architecture, art with the West.


As already illustrated by my comment from 17:34 objectivity doesn't look like your strongest point... It's interesting that you think that you have less political and cultural baggage.


You see it this way, becuase you're not being objective.


Listen, man, the only reason I even write in this thread is because of people like you and berni23. I don't have a special wish of being Central, Eastern or Martian for that matter lol Berni23 even doesn't want to enumerate Eastern European countries but wants Poland to be in Eastern Poland very much - you're not curious why?


I've already wrote about the culture. And as for cuisine - Polish cuisine is a mix of many cuisines, especially of our neighbours, but not only. For example, goulash isn't Slavic, you know ;) We also eat dishes that are considered Slavic (some claim they aren't because you have dumplings in Italy or Asia too), because we're Slavs lol Noone claims we aren't lol


What tradition?


Even the language is West Slavic language not East Slavic. Poles are West Slavs. So, yes, we differ from the East Slavs. Why is it such a problem for you?


Wha...? How history can be Eastern? lol


What's Eastern about Polish architecture? ;D


O__________O

:D

OMG, in Poland even landscape is Eastern... The sky and the Sun probably too :D


What do you mean?


According to geography Poland is Central Europe ;D


What tradition?
And what separates Poland from "its largest and most dominant neighbour" is a bit more then our desire ;) You're making biased assumptions, again.

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]

The situation is a complicated one, and those posters who whine on about wanting Poland to be in Eastern rather than Central Europe would do far better to examine their motives for that wish.

:)

Objectivity - you've got to love it :)))

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1090]


Dear Lord, I've been discussing with Russians for 5/6 years... How can I detail it? lol
But I'll try to write something after I'll eat ;)


Berni, I don't care about maps as I'm not sure what they are telling you.
I want to know which countries YOU consider Eastern European.
Enumerate.... them... please :)


Berni, you put that map on the forum intending to prove your point and you achieved the opposite, which I find quite funny, that's all ;)


You're twisting it, noone claims that Poland ethnically and linguistically is closer to the West than its Eastern neighbors (although maybe it is to some extent but I'm not going to go as far as digging in genetics lol). But culturally - yes, it's closer.


And what reasoning there can be with someone who can't even enumerate Eastern European countries?