Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
And then watch Lithuania getting into spats with Russia???
Put a pipe through Lithuania?
And then watch Lithuania getting into spats with Russia???
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
Great idea! :)
Sure, why not. Or we can just trade gas for Leopards ;)
Great idea! :)
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
And I have no idea how a united EU front should work on two not-EU members who disagree
about a gas supply which lets lot's of EU-countries hanging...
Other than paying the money for Ukraine I don't have any idea...
PS: The EU did that actually
euobserver.com/863/28516
Not quite sure what you meant there?
And I have no idea how a united EU front should work on two not-EU members who disagree
about a gas supply which lets lot's of EU-countries hanging...
Other than paying the money for Ukraine I don't have any idea...
PS: The EU did that actually
EU arranges anti-gas crisis loan for Ukraine
The European Commission has helped Ukraine to secure international loans to prevent a repetition of last winter's gas cut-off.
The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the European Investment Bank and the World Bank will together put forward $1.7 billion (€1.2 billion).
The European Commission has helped Ukraine to secure international loans to prevent a repetition of last winter's gas cut-off.
The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the European Investment Bank and the World Bank will together put forward $1.7 billion (€1.2 billion).
euobserver.com/863/28516
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/06/ukraine.russia.gas/index.html
Ja...but to do WHAT? All glaring in Russias or Ukraines direction? WHAT?
cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/06/ukraine.russia.gas/index.html
I just think this is exactly where the E.U. should show a united front to benefit us all.
Ja...but to do WHAT? All glaring in Russias or Ukraines direction? WHAT?
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
They did it already if I remember it correctly...all because of the spat with Ukraine.
How, if they don't get paid by the Ukraine?
You see, here lays exactly the crux of the matter...even if other european countries have paid the agreed price they are not getting anything if the pipeline runs over a country who has different ideas...
Nice words...but a realistic scenario please!
Also a problem...
You will sell us some then, yes? :)
and it wouldn't be profitable to cut off Poland AND Germany, know what I mean?
They did it already if I remember it correctly...all because of the spat with Ukraine.
Because Russia would lose money if they cut off their gas to a European Union.
I am going for Russia's business perspective.
I am going for Russia's business perspective.
How, if they don't get paid by the Ukraine?
You see, here lays exactly the crux of the matter...even if other european countries have paid the agreed price they are not getting anything if the pipeline runs over a country who has different ideas...
If Germany and Poland were to be joined on this one it could make for better conditions, stabilizing any fears about being cut off.
Nice words...but a realistic scenario please!
Ukraine is not part of the union.
Also a problem...
Not in the beginning, because the new technology is expensive, but in the long run
it will be profitable (and we finally won't be dependent on Russia for gas).
it will be profitable (and we finally won't be dependent on Russia for gas).
You will sell us some then, yes? :)
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
What could they do if Russia cuts off Ukraine because they don't want to pair the regular price???
How so? We had some winters already were everybody from Ukraine downwards was cut off because of the disagreements!
Do do what exactly?
Pressing Ukraine to pay? Lending Ukraine the money??? Threatening Russia with war??? What???
Good to hear...:)
Cool...you will get rich quickly! ;)
Is it not possible to appeal to the E.U. commission on trade?
What could they do if Russia cuts off Ukraine because they don't want to pair the regular price???
If Russia wanted they could cut Poland off, the pipe line going through here would deter such an action.
How so? We had some winters already were everybody from Ukraine downwards was cut off because of the disagreements!
and I would like to see a united E.U. front.
Do do what exactly?
Pressing Ukraine to pay? Lending Ukraine the money??? Threatening Russia with war??? What???
so people are happy enough with how it is progressing.
Good to hear...:)
It is so-called "shell gas" or "tight gas" very difficult to extract from its deposits.
We don't have the technology to get it, but the Americans do and if all goes well
(the final research drillling will be done this month) we will have enough gas for
the next 100-200 years without the necessity of importing it.
We don't have the technology to get it, but the Americans do and if all goes well
(the final research drillling will be done this month) we will have enough gas for
the next 100-200 years without the necessity of importing it.
Cool...you will get rich quickly! ;)
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
Well, diversifying your energy resources is a smart thing to do....what would you had done if you were in Germany's boots?
We were the victims of regular soviet/ukrainian/polish spats with regularly being cut off from the energy too...
Well, I'm not an insider in polish domestic politics but I really wonder how Poles would wish for another Kaczinsky or say that "Tusk sells Poland down ther river"...maybe voting Mrs. Steinbach for german chancellor would be an equivalent? ;)
It just seems more like a game of geopolitical chess but I could be wrong.
Well, diversifying your energy resources is a smart thing to do....what would you had done if you were in Germany's boots?
We were the victims of regular soviet/ukrainian/polish spats with regularly being cut off from the energy too...
The people I talk to here also see him as a better face for Poland. That is not to say that he is not scrutinised at every turn but when people talk about Politics here you have to read between the lines as it is generally quite negative.
Well, I'm not an insider in polish domestic politics but I really wonder how Poles would wish for another Kaczinsky or say that "Tusk sells Poland down ther river"...maybe voting Mrs. Steinbach for german chancellor would be an equivalent? ;)
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
In the long run yes, no fee to pay for Ukraine and Poland to use their soil.
Quite, yes. He is seen as serious politician.
It's also with Tusk there is now an agreement that Poland will get gas from the pipeline too if they so wish, something the terrible twins were also dead set against!
Perhaps I assumed too much when I assumed it would be more expensive to go underwater.
Is it cheaper?
Is it cheaper?
In the long run yes, no fee to pay for Ukraine and Poland to use their soil.
That's three years ago BB, is Tusk liked in Germany?
Quite, yes. He is seen as serious politician.
It's also with Tusk there is now an agreement that Poland will get gas from the pipeline too if they so wish, something the terrible twins were also dead set against!
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]
Oh these wink marks...
No cool Marienburg castle, no Prussia....I would miss them! *snif*
Oh these wink marks...
Actually if Poland burned Malborg to the ground no World Wars would happen since there would be no Prussia,
No cool Marienburg castle, no Prussia....I would miss them! *snif*
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]
Oh Seanie...you know all about Genscher but nothing about German history???
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Schumacher
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Adenauer
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Kohl
Oh Seanie...you know all about Genscher but nothing about German history???
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Schumacher
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Adenauer
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Kohl
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]
Oh Seanie, you couldn't be more wrong.
Living for decades in a socialist/communist environment didn't made people equal (regardless what they told you in your school)....there were lot's of apparatschiks, informers, gov bootleckers who profited from it and had more than the common folks...
But compared to a free western society you had barely the means to change upwards yourself without becoming such a spineless bootlecker yourself...try to feel the bitterness and envy and hate springing from that for a moment.
If people had led affluent, quiet lives there wouldn't had been a revolution!
PS: I believe Borrka means Polands history, not the current time...
Yes, communism was a system which stymied the masses but it suppressed the natural instincts of being jealous of your neighbour for having material goods.
Oh Seanie, you couldn't be more wrong.
Living for decades in a socialist/communist environment didn't made people equal (regardless what they told you in your school)....there were lot's of apparatschiks, informers, gov bootleckers who profited from it and had more than the common folks...
But compared to a free western society you had barely the means to change upwards yourself without becoming such a spineless bootlecker yourself...try to feel the bitterness and envy and hate springing from that for a moment.
If people had led affluent, quiet lives there wouldn't had been a revolution!
PS: I believe Borrka means Polands history, not the current time...
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]
There is no reason Poland can't achieve it too in the nearer future, you have definitely the potential.
We can't change history though...
I definitely prefer German life standards,
There is no reason Poland can't achieve it too in the nearer future, you have definitely the potential.
We can't change history though...
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
Bratwurst Boy
5 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
Please read post #11 for an explanation...it was more a matter of pragmatism as it isn't your country dependable on b*itching neighbours being cut off the much needed energy too when those neighbours have a dispute...again...
I dislike the way the E.U. isn't showing a unified front on this issue with Russia.
The Nord Stream line circumventing Poland to Germany shows the E.U's weakness, in my opinion.
Are we a European Union or still stuck in our internal conflicts?
The Nord Stream line circumventing Poland to Germany shows the E.U's weakness, in my opinion.
Are we a European Union or still stuck in our internal conflicts?
Please read post #11 for an explanation...it was more a matter of pragmatism as it isn't your country dependable on b*itching neighbours being cut off the much needed energy too when those neighbours have a dispute...again...
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY [493]
Yes, Germany's mainstream press is also often not perfect (to lefty for my taste) but nobody gets killed and when you want to find another opinion you can do so at least.
And then there is the internet! :)
Yes, Germany's mainstream press is also often not perfect (to lefty for my taste) but nobody gets killed and when you want to find another opinion you can do so at least.
And then there is the internet! :)
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
This "sitting next door" was also Germany! That's what I meant with being occupied and not having much choice...certain geopolitical facts didn't made it possible.
There wasn't a lot of screaming for the US and Brits to take their armor out while 4000 Soviet tanks were sitting next door. US had a nice forward operating country, and Germany didn't have to pump money into strategic defense.
This "sitting next door" was also Germany! That's what I meant with being occupied and not having much choice...certain geopolitical facts didn't made it possible.
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY [493]
I have my doubts...the press freedom is nearly non-existent...journalists get threatened and murdered...the approval quote of Putin...er...Medvedev is enormous (maybe the Russians like the style who knows).
There is no free forming of opinion, hence free choice of parties and programs, hence democracy without a free press!
Regarding Russia...far more democratic than authoritarian...not to say there aren't problems, but seriously.
I have my doubts...the press freedom is nearly non-existent...journalists get threatened and murdered...the approval quote of Putin...er...Medvedev is enormous (maybe the Russians like the style who knows).
Various aspects of the contemporary press freedom situation are criticized by multiple international organisations. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7] According to International Press Institute, the Russian laws, bureaucratic regulations and politically motivated criminal investigations have forced the press into self-censorship.[1] [8] According to International Press Institute, Russia is the most dangerous European country for journalists.[9][1] According to Human Rights Watch, the Russian government control over civil society through selective implementation of the law, restriction and censure.[4]
In 2009 Reporters Without Borders ranked Russia 153th out of 175 in the Press Freedom Index.
In 2009 Reporters Without Borders ranked Russia 153th out of 175 in the Press Freedom Index.
There is no free forming of opinion, hence free choice of parties and programs, hence democracy without a free press!
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY [493]
"....against each other" was the important point.
You can't call the former PLO now HAMAS state or the Arab theocracies/kingdoms democracies.
Russia? More authoritarian than fully democratic...
"....against each other" was the important point.
You can't call the former PLO now HAMAS state or the Arab theocracies/kingdoms democracies.
Russia? More authoritarian than fully democratic...
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
Just a dream...other than that Poland suddenly finds huge oil resources on it's soil it will be always dependent on other countries for it's energy (like Germany).
Oh and till we find a way to slake our energy thirst with the help of desertec and other renewable energy projects that is...
Only as long Germany was able and willing to pay...
Now as Germany hesitated as in the case of Greece you see how "peaceful" Europe became!
Agreed!
Didn't you hear the news Nathan? Germany is accused for not importing to much, not spending to much, for saving to much, for exporting to much and hence being the main blame for the european crisis!
And if we want the failed economies to be a bit more like the german economy - oh horror, the mean Nazis are at it again, how dare they!!!
I must admit Germans are losing their enthusiasm quite abit...
Why? All I am saying Poland should not be dependant neither on Russian, nor on German supplies. Who pays
Just a dream...other than that Poland suddenly finds huge oil resources on it's soil it will be always dependent on other countries for it's energy (like Germany).
Oh and till we find a way to slake our energy thirst with the help of desertec and other renewable energy projects that is...
In the first place, it's a peace project. It creates peace, stability, and safety in the region of Europe that immediately borders Germany
Only as long Germany was able and willing to pay...
Now as Germany hesitated as in the case of Greece you see how "peaceful" Europe became!
The export-oriented German economy profits particularly from this quickly growing market.
Agreed!
It makes no sense to say that the expansion will lead to an additional burden for the Germans.
Didn't you hear the news Nathan? Germany is accused for not importing to much, not spending to much, for saving to much, for exporting to much and hence being the main blame for the european crisis!
And if we want the failed economies to be a bit more like the german economy - oh horror, the mean Nazis are at it again, how dare they!!!
I must admit Germans are losing their enthusiasm quite abit...
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
Being an occupied country for 50 years...there wasn't much choice!
Well...in that case Nordstream plays no role at all....(other than that you can't starve Germany of energy in purposely blocking the pipeline anymore)
Well...that and Germany never had to worry about paying for strategic defense. That might have saved a bit of cash....
Being an occupied country for 50 years...there wasn't much choice!
Exactly. But what about political conflict between Poland and Germany?
Well...in that case Nordstream plays no role at all....(other than that you can't starve Germany of energy in purposely blocking the pipeline anymore)
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
First: At that time people got convinced to undertake such a huge challenge like the Nordstream pipeline Poland was governed by the horrible twins who not posed their country as a bridge but rather more like a fence or a wall.
Germans felt it was safer to not to be dependent on Poland regarding our energy (yes it was that bad and yes it needs two to tango)
Second: It is not only Germany which gets another secure means for energy but other european countries as well and even Poland will be provided with Gas through the german parts of the pipeline.
It's just that any future Polish-Russian conflicts don't leave Germany starved of energy.
Third: If some eastern europeans didn't feel they could use the old pipeline as a kind of blackmail and power weapon against German AND Russia they wouldn't protest so much the alternative!
Honestely I blame the Kaczinskies with their extremely annoying and irritating tantrums to always blame Germany AND Russia for Nordstream...
Here an interesting comment:
The EU is Germany....for decades Germany build and paid the EU....call it war guilt or whatever but without the cheques from Germany there wouldn't be no EU. Germany (West Germany that is) put for decades the wishes and the well being of the EU before herself, again...billions of german tax payers money got distributes around Europe for 50 years.
Who will be there if Germany needs help...guess what? Nobody...as nobody helped Germany with the huge task of the reunification.
Germany has it's own problems now...and honestly many Germans are losing interest in being the paymaster of the EU, war guilt is waning too...and when everybody comes running to us then at least we want to have more say in it...sue us!
Strangely enough, it bypasses Poland even though some claim there is a blooming friendship between neighbors.
First: At that time people got convinced to undertake such a huge challenge like the Nordstream pipeline Poland was governed by the horrible twins who not posed their country as a bridge but rather more like a fence or a wall.
Germans felt it was safer to not to be dependent on Poland regarding our energy (yes it was that bad and yes it needs two to tango)
Second: It is not only Germany which gets another secure means for energy but other european countries as well and even Poland will be provided with Gas through the german parts of the pipeline.
It's just that any future Polish-Russian conflicts don't leave Germany starved of energy.
Third: If some eastern europeans didn't feel they could use the old pipeline as a kind of blackmail and power weapon against German AND Russia they wouldn't protest so much the alternative!
Honestely I blame the Kaczinskies with their extremely annoying and irritating tantrums to always blame Germany AND Russia for Nordstream...
Here an interesting comment:
Political commentator Yelena Shesternina writes:
"Polish voters probably did not mind Kaczynski's consistent criticism of Moscow. It is certainly true that few Poles are ardent admirers of Russia. But even so, the former prime minister clearly overdid it. Suffice to mention the closure of the Russian display at the Auschwitz memorial, or the censure of Aleksander Kwasniewski for his decision to visit Moscow for the 60th Anniversary of Victory over the Nazis, or the demand that the Russian government repent its errors beginning with the division of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 18th century to the Soviet invasion.
Kaczynski did more than seek his own interpretation of "historic justice." He consistently torpedoed Russia-EU negotiations. Offended by Russia's ban on its meat imports, Poland alone voted against a strategic partnership between the EU and Russia. It also rejected any compromise on hosting the U.S. missile-defense system. A few days before the elections, Jaroslaw Kaczynski said quite openly that the U.S. 'missile shield' was designed to shoot down Russian missiles, not Iranian ones, thus indicating which nation Warsaw saw as its number one foe.
Kaczynski was no friend of the OSCE either. Warsaw did not even invite that organization's observers to monitor elections under the pretext that Switzerland was voting on the same day. He must have thought that Swiss democracy was in greater need of protection than the Polish model."
"Polish voters probably did not mind Kaczynski's consistent criticism of Moscow. It is certainly true that few Poles are ardent admirers of Russia. But even so, the former prime minister clearly overdid it. Suffice to mention the closure of the Russian display at the Auschwitz memorial, or the censure of Aleksander Kwasniewski for his decision to visit Moscow for the 60th Anniversary of Victory over the Nazis, or the demand that the Russian government repent its errors beginning with the division of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 18th century to the Soviet invasion.
Kaczynski did more than seek his own interpretation of "historic justice." He consistently torpedoed Russia-EU negotiations. Offended by Russia's ban on its meat imports, Poland alone voted against a strategic partnership between the EU and Russia. It also rejected any compromise on hosting the U.S. missile-defense system. A few days before the elections, Jaroslaw Kaczynski said quite openly that the U.S. 'missile shield' was designed to shoot down Russian missiles, not Iranian ones, thus indicating which nation Warsaw saw as its number one foe.
Kaczynski was no friend of the OSCE either. Warsaw did not even invite that organization's observers to monitor elections under the pretext that Switzerland was voting on the same day. He must have thought that Swiss democracy was in greater need of protection than the Polish model."
When there is necessity to bring some changes to the EU constitution, Germany seems to be disrespectful and threatful to the will of the countries who are equal partners in EU (at least I thought so).
The EU is Germany....for decades Germany build and paid the EU....call it war guilt or whatever but without the cheques from Germany there wouldn't be no EU. Germany (West Germany that is) put for decades the wishes and the well being of the EU before herself, again...billions of german tax payers money got distributes around Europe for 50 years.
Who will be there if Germany needs help...guess what? Nobody...as nobody helped Germany with the huge task of the reunification.
Germany has it's own problems now...and honestly many Germans are losing interest in being the paymaster of the EU, war guilt is waning too...and when everybody comes running to us then at least we want to have more say in it...sue us!
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
What scenario exactly do you have in mind Nathan?
What scenario exactly do you have in mind Nathan?
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
I think I can safely say there is no fear of a new military clash of Germans and Russians (in Poland nor elsewhere).
It isn't bad if the bridge is between two civilized worlds. Otherwise, it will be used by marching soldiers and blown up during retreats.
I think I can safely say there is no fear of a new military clash of Germans and Russians (in Poland nor elsewhere).
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
News / Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia? [122]
Having cordial relationships to your neighbours is never a bad idea and being a bridge is a great position to be in actually!
Having cordial relationships to your neighbours is never a bad idea and being a bridge is a great position to be in actually!
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]
And Poles would attack Germany just like that?
And Poles would attack Germany just like that?
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]
We should play that out some time Gruni! ;)
Germany was the Aggressor and even the most loyal officers thought Hitler was becoming mad...
But to attack a helpless country which did nothing to deserve it (till then) would make us to the new "Poles" and you to the new "Germany"! ;)
We should play that out some time Gruni! ;)
Germany was the Aggressor and even the most loyal officers thought Hitler was becoming mad...
But to attack a helpless country which did nothing to deserve it (till then) would make us to the new "Poles" and you to the new "Germany"! ;)
Bratwurst Boy
4 Apr 2010
History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]
Well, a coup de tat (?) as your country is attacked???
And yes, population and industrial base matter....Maybe Poles would get initially inside Germany abit but the shock would wear off soon and then...I can't see an easy short win for Poland, really not!
And the longtime aftermath would be interesting to say at least, for both countries...Hitler gaining the victim status, Poland the agressor...every dead german child on the way will be shown in the media etc...
Well, a coup de tat (?) as your country is attacked???
And yes, population and industrial base matter....Maybe Poles would get initially inside Germany abit but the shock would wear off soon and then...I can't see an easy short win for Poland, really not!
And the longtime aftermath would be interesting to say at least, for both countries...Hitler gaining the victim status, Poland the agressor...every dead german child on the way will be shown in the media etc...
Bratwurst Boy
3 Apr 2010
History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]
You think there would be a surrender??? When? Why? Polish troops didn't had the capacity to occupy the whole of Germany (if lucky the stretch from Warsaw to Berlin). But that's about it...
There would be no surrender! ;)
A win would constitute a surrender. I know what you mean and I have thought it through. A surrender would come quickly when stormed.
You think there would be a surrender??? When? Why? Polish troops didn't had the capacity to occupy the whole of Germany (if lucky the stretch from Warsaw to Berlin). But that's about it...
There would be no surrender! ;)
Bratwurst Boy
3 Apr 2010
History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]
Doubtful,
Germany had still much more people, and what would a win include? In Berlin in one week and then???
Occupying a country much more populous? With a much greater industrial base? You don't think things through Seanie...
In 33/34 and later Hitler Germany had still alot of admirers in Europe and elsewhere...he "got things done", got Germany back on track again (or however you want to call it).
It would appear to be that way. I only meant that they had the military might to take on Germany and comfortably win in 1933/34
Doubtful,
Germany had still much more people, and what would a win include? In Berlin in one week and then???
Occupying a country much more populous? With a much greater industrial base? You don't think things through Seanie...
In 33/34 and later Hitler Germany had still alot of admirers in Europe and elsewhere...he "got things done", got Germany back on track again (or however you want to call it).