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John Paul II's Beatification


sobieski 107 | 2,128
23 Apr 2011 #1
Yes, JPII will get beatified next weekend. I am not very impressed by this. Yes of course he did a lot for his country and he was one of the factors contributing in the 1989 events. (Though if Gorbachev would not have been there, it would have come to nothing).He did really a lot in promoting Polish-Jewish relations (something conveniently forgotten by all Dmowskites)

But beside of that? He had extremely conservative ideas about society. Women in the church...peadophile scandals...Forget about it.
Beatifications have always been used by the Vatican as a marketing tool. This will not change. Inventing miracles getting harder and convinving the world about them even more.
portuguese - | 1
23 Apr 2011 #2
I met Pope John Paul II four times in my life. The first one in 1982, during the visit to Portugal, the second in Czestochowa in 1991, and the other two again in Portugal.

Beside the important political role of JPII in destroying the communism, the first atheist regimen in human history, for me, the most important aspect of JPII was his ability to really suffer with everyone's problems, and to make God attractive, by his word, his voice praying, and by his suffering.

It's almost imposible not to believe in God when we saw JPII praying, by holding the Rosary in his hand.
Torq
23 Apr 2011 #3
Yes, JPII will get beatified next weekend. I am not very impressed by this.

Oh, no - a funny, little poster from Belgium (by the way - is murdering unborn babies still legal in your
country?) is "not very impressed" with the beatification of John Paul II. What a pity!
It's almost as bad as some drunken chav not being very impressed by the Nobel Prize for Albert Einstein.

Seriously, dude - why don't you stop getting drunk on your own self-importance.

Thank you for this post, Portuguese, and welcome to PolishForums. I hope you will hang around
and post a lot. May Saint Virgin Mary the Queen of Poland (but also of Portugal) bless you and
your family.
convex 20 | 3,978
23 Apr 2011 #4
Oh, no - a funny, little poster from Belgium (by the way - is murdering unborn babies still legal in your
country?) is "not very impressed" with the beatification of John Paul II. What a pity!

Here's my take, it's a Catholic thing. If it makes Catholics happy, what does it have to do with me? You guys mind your own business, and the rest of the pastafarians and I will mind our own business :)
pgtx 30 | 3,156
23 Apr 2011 #5
amen! ;)
Torq
23 Apr 2011 #6
Here's my take, it's a Catholic thing. If it makes Catholics happy, what does it have to do with me? You guys mind your own business, and the rest of the pastafarians and I will mind our own business :)

Sounds reasonable to me. If Discordians decide to pronounce the Great Shitstirrus their greatest
prophet ever, I will not comment on it, as I am not a Discordian myself. I would expect similar approach
to Catholicism from Discordians :)
Nathan 18 | 1,363
23 Apr 2011 #7
JP is absolutely worth beatification. He brought some unity to the religious side of the world's life. He softened the tensions which existed and still do but to a lesser degree among various religious groups. His trip to Israel was quite outstanding in all its significance. When I think of him I always see that image when JP spins a walking stick in a funny way for an old person, which showed his vigor and youth on the inside. He had enormous charisma and of course, did much for Poland and in a way to other Soviet-controlled states.

He had extremely conservative ideas about society. Women in the church...peadophile scandals...Forget about it.

Women in the church... It takes time, man. Women received voting rights in Switzerland in 1970s - the heart of Europe! Black people - on the back of the bus in the US in 1960s - the most democratic as many say state of the world. We just got out of the Middle Ages in our lay life, so what do you expect of the Church - religion was always highly inflexible to innovations.

Pedophiles... I just hope the Church finally make itself a favor and gives its priests ability to marry, because to force someone against his body, make him fight all the time with himself will sooner or later end in disaster. JP couldn't possibly change all these traditions himself even if he tried - it was built for centuries and is harshly supported today. Important is the spirit of resistance and fight against the bad tidings, faith which where important things which JP profferred
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Apr 2011 #8
In the absence of formal criteria for Beatification, they need to make the call based on the meritorious acts he did. The man had good in his heart and we can forgive him for following the tenets of conservatism as he was merely a man functioning in that environment. It isn't the calling of the church to be overly modernised as it is not an avant-garde institution. If priests are to have any credibility as sth akin to the descendants of the Apostles then we can observe that the Apostles were men, not women. This is not like the case of golf (gentlemen only ladies forbidden) which can be changed to allow women into clubhouses.

Cutting to the chase, JPII was a man that stood out and I say that as sb who is not a fan of the Vatican and what they get up to. We are all human with inherent foibles but JPII really used his position to show goodness.
sascha 1 | 826
23 Apr 2011 #9
He brought some unity to the religious side of the world's life

I do not doubt that he did good things(or tried at least) and had good intentions, but maybe after the assessination on him failed, he was not anymore in good health and I think that he broke to the system. He had no more physical power to withstand even though as a monarch he was very active in sports and should have some gas left to fight...

What now is happening in the RCC is partialy his inheritance...with priests molesting kids etc. The RCC still functions on the system of medivial. Many local bishops etc. 'run their own business'...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Apr 2011 #10
The thing is, JP didn't condone such behaviour, sascha. Maybe tacitly through a lack of stamping it out, yes. However, look at the RCC in the past. They didn't excommunicate Hitler yet he was dangerous to their image as a self-confessed Catholic (a dubious issue but he still kept the label). JP would likely have taken a stand on such a matter.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
23 Apr 2011 #11
What now is happening in the RCC is partialy his inheritance...with priests molesting kids etc

In what way? Was there a bull about molesting kids or any even slightest suggestions in that direction either due to the lack of stern control and oversight? This problem bugged the Church for centuries, but came to the surface comparatively recently because of mass-media, knowledge and human rights progress. It is the same thing as to say that Wikileaks is an inheritance of Barack Obama. We simply now see what was going on for ages behind our backs. It is the system in itself that brought these consequences, not a person in some remote future.
convex 20 | 3,978
23 Apr 2011 #12
Wait...will beatification be a drinking...strike that, "celebratory" occasion, or a fasting occasion?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
23 Apr 2011 #13
Maybe tacitly through a lack of stamping it out, yes.

Many people I've spoken to believe that a lot of it was being kept secret from him - a certain guy in Krakow may very well have acted in his name. Given his conduct surrounding the burial of Lech Kaczynski, it really wouldn't surprise me. Given JPII's reputation for pushing through difficult things - they may simply have kept the truth from him.

For what it's worth, JPII also had great relations with the Anglican community - and while I find the whole issue of miracles to be slightly odd, it's the Catholic church's choice to believe in such things.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Apr 2011 #14
Which makes you wonder the value of having sb out of touch with common knowledge in that position. It is no secret! Still, he could always have pleaded lack of knowledge and it is mere speculation what he would have done in that case.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
23 Apr 2011 #15
Wait...will beatification be a drinking...strike that, "celebratory" occasion, or a fasting occasion?

I think it will be a remebrance of someone who left something behind. I am a Catholic in a way, but it is not about faith, just seeing that a man is recognized. Beatification the same way as an Oscar award doesn't change a thing. Nevertheless, it is something that makes the feeling of the many official, in a way uniting. That's all. One can get drunk, go on a banging spree or hang oneself - it is a free world.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
29 Apr 2011 #16
I saw many people hitch-hiking, on the ZakopiaƄska during the week, carrying a board with the Vatican's flag on it.
Obviously going to the ceremony.

weaEWRFAS

I just thought some of you might like to know.
poland_
30 Apr 2011 #17
The Vatican has brought out Pope John Paul II's coffin in the crypt under St Peter's Basilica ahead of his beatification on Sunday.

It was placed near St Peter's tomb, and will go on display before the main altar during the ceremony, after which it will be re-interred elsewhere

In all, 22 world leaders will be in Rome to celebrate the beatification of the Polish-born Pope.
A Vatican spokesman said 87 international delegations had so far indicated they would be attending Sunday's solemn ceremony in St Peter's Square.
They include members of five European royal families, including the British Royal Family who will be represented by the Duke of Gloucester.
Hundreds of thousands of pilgrims - including up to a quarter of a million from Poland alone - are expected to cram the square.
A number of Jews including an Israeli cabinet minister will also attend, in a sign of appreciation for the late religious leader's efforts to overcome tensions between the two faiths.

"We have a high respect, a unique respect for John Paul," Yossi Peled, minister without portfolio, told the Associated Press news agency on Friday. "He is not just another pope for us.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
30 Apr 2011 #18
It was placed near St Peter's tomb, and will go on display before the main altar during the ceremony, after which it will be re-interred elsewhere

Interesting question - would JPII really want such public display?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
30 Apr 2011 #19
Who really wants their dead corpse on display? Death isn't a pretty affair and who likes to look like it but it is the truth.

I think one of the main things JPII would have wanted is people from different religions to join rather than fraction and I agree with this.
Mateusz_A Ty - | 12
30 Apr 2011 #20
Portugese is right, even though I haven't seen him much because i'm 19, everytime I saw him praying, it's like God's here.. I think he deserves it and I don't care what the first post says. It's not marketing. Karol Wojtyla to zasurzyl. :D
poland_
30 Apr 2011 #21
Interesting question - would JPII really want such public display?

There is nothing wrong with a coffin being on display.

Yes, JPII will get beatified next weekend. I am not very impressed by this

Are you Catholic Sobieski?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Apr 2011 #22
As we witnessed in April last year.

If we can't honour the work of great men, who can we honour? Besides, he was proven to exist. Many false gods have caused unspeakable suffering for the deeds carried out in their name. The Nazi schizoid character being first among them.

So, give the man as much respect as he should be afforded.
poland_
30 Apr 2011 #23
If we can't honour the work of great men, who can we honour?

Good quote, Seanus.

Before we judge others, should we not consider what we have contributed to the world. The old saying" The mark of a man is how many people turn up to his funeral"
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Apr 2011 #24
Thanks, warsz :)

The man really worked wonders within an institution which is hardly renowned for its leeway. I am no fan of The Vatican but JPII did himself and his country proud!
poland_
30 Apr 2011 #25
JPII did himself and his country proud!

He should be remembered as one of the great figures of the 20th century.

Pope John Paul II, revolutionized and personalized the Roman Catholic papacy, taking it from the majesty of the Vatican and putting it on the road, visiting more than 100 countries, in effect circling the globe 27 times.

John Paul II will be remembered as a great communicator, a humble friend of the people and spiritual leader to more than 1 billion Catholics.
But the former pope was not merely a leader of Catholics. He was a leader of free men, bravely standing against tyranny when tyranny was on a roll.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Apr 2011 #26
Unlike other Catholics I have observed, he really believed in forgiveness. I believe in forgiveness within reason. His sticking to principles really won him my respect.
rybnik 18 | 1,461
1 May 2011 #27
I'm very impressed with the massive Polish turnout.
spinnerdcc
1 May 2011 #28
I'm confused is there not a bit in the bible about false idols?
pawian 177 | 14,710
1 May 2011 #29
I'm very impressed with the massive Polish turnout.

Of course, it is natural.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
1 May 2011 #30
There are Polish and papal flags everywhere for the last week.

Even here in the relatively small town I live in they have erected a statue of the pope and a stage for the celebration.

I can't turn on the radio though, it's all they are talking about.

It's good to see Poles unite.

I'm confused is there not a bit in the bible about false idols?

He was the pope, the head of the church, I don't think that makes him a false idol in the eyes of practising Catholics.


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