@Oathbreaker, you just conflated two separate issues within the same post! The "loan Werwolfs" to which I was referring were in post-War Germany, not Poland-:)
The Warsaw Uprising memory. To remember who you are.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #62
@Lyzko
Ah ok, my mistake then. I am so used to anyone trying to smear anything positive about the Warsaw uprising that one never knows what an other poster is up to.
Btw the ghetto uprising and the Warsaw uprising are two separate events. There isn't any reason to be aggrevated about it tho, there were Jews liberated in 1944 who wanted to join the uprising as well. (I don't know further, most likely they didn't get any weapons as many of the insurgents themselves had little weapons and ammunition)
Ah ok, my mistake then. I am so used to anyone trying to smear anything positive about the Warsaw uprising that one never knows what an other poster is up to.
Btw the ghetto uprising and the Warsaw uprising are two separate events. There isn't any reason to be aggrevated about it tho, there were Jews liberated in 1944 who wanted to join the uprising as well. (I don't know further, most likely they didn't get any weapons as many of the insurgents themselves had little weapons and ammunition)
not just for freedom, but for their lives.
BS. Circular logic at its best. Sure, once you start shooting you fight for your life because the guy you tried to kill is now shooting back. Duh!
they wanted to destroy and enslave.
The same with this bs line. In the summer of 1944, Germans were already in retreat, and "enslaving" was not on their minds. Sheer survival was. All Poles had to do is wait. That's it. Nothing else. Let the big dogs fight it out and watch.
The Paris "uprising" was in the category of the French army riding on the American tanks into Paris to make the French proud. I wonder if they tried to charge admission for that lame show.
I hope you are out of generic bs lines...or do you have more?
I don't know further, most likely they didn't get any weapons as many of the insurgents themselves had little weapons and ammunition
Miła 18 by Leon Uris is worth reading. There are things in it that will probably annoy you, however it is worth it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mila_18
Can you recommend some good reading on the Warsaw Uprising?
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #65
@jon357
atticus.pl/?pag=poz&id=56232
Knock yourself out
atticus.pl/?pag=poz&id=56232
Knock yourself out
Thanks; I'll see if I can find it.
as many of the insurgents themselves had little weapons and ammunition
But they decided to start that uprising anyway. Was there anyone sane? "Little weapons and ammunition" against tanks? Another repeat of horses against Panzers in 1939? Are Poles nuts or just can't count?
Are Poles nuts
Some of the Germans were. Literally criminally insane in the case of some of the Dirlewanger Brigade. And they were let loose in Warsaw. What they did in the cancer hospital on ul. Banacha is best not repeated here; it would just read like the plot of a nasty horror film and it was not a film, it was real. Against that, you can either fight and die or just die.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #69
@Novichok
Even a mice will jump at a cat when cornered, why is it so hard for you to grasp that? There was no other way, you got to be insane to think that Poles would agree to prolong the war and dig trenches for the germans in 1944.
Your evaluating the situation from a comfy chair behind a computer screen 77 years later, the uprising was bound to explode either way and the leadership knew it. They had a choice, start it themselves and have some authority or lead to a chaotic mess they had no control over.
If you think any of the men would survive the trench digging and not sent to concentration camps, then you are an idiot. But seeing how vile you are on this forum. I wouldn't surprised if you think that every Varsovian should been sent to the camps and died. It's rotten of you to write like that when you obviously survived it, things could had gone even worse for you. Which you don't seem to even imagine
Even a mice will jump at a cat when cornered, why is it so hard for you to grasp that? There was no other way, you got to be insane to think that Poles would agree to prolong the war and dig trenches for the germans in 1944.
Your evaluating the situation from a comfy chair behind a computer screen 77 years later, the uprising was bound to explode either way and the leadership knew it. They had a choice, start it themselves and have some authority or lead to a chaotic mess they had no control over.
If you think any of the men would survive the trench digging and not sent to concentration camps, then you are an idiot. But seeing how vile you are on this forum. I wouldn't surprised if you think that every Varsovian should been sent to the camps and died. It's rotten of you to write like that when you obviously survived it, things could had gone even worse for you. Which you don't seem to even imagine
It's rotten of you to write like that when you obviously survived it,
Nah don't think the putinbot was alive then.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #71
@amiga500
He has claimed to have survived it as a kid, which would make him the same age as my grandfather.
He has claimed to have survived it as a kid, which would make him the same age as my grandfather.
Even a mice will jump at a cat when cornered,
I read your post and like most of them on the subject is one pile of emotions and idiotic assumptions about me. I would be glad to respond on points after you re-post it without comments about me and only what I actually posted. Your inferences are not facts I will debate.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #73
@Novichok
Same to you... You really think Warsaw would be spared? It would have turned to a war zone either way, only reason cities like Cracow got spared it's cause the Nazi's thought of them as German cities. And as one concentration camp after another got liberated, they started to think twice about their actions and the future waiting them.
So you can cut out your emotional one sided love for everything Soviet and get a grip on reality
Same to you... You really think Warsaw would be spared? It would have turned to a war zone either way, only reason cities like Cracow got spared it's cause the Nazi's thought of them as German cities. And as one concentration camp after another got liberated, they started to think twice about their actions and the future waiting them.
So you can cut out your emotional one sided love for everything Soviet and get a grip on reality
You really think Warsaw would be spared?
1. The Uprising was a political move
2. Assume that there was no uprising and go from there. Tell me what you see. Try Radom for reference. Once you say, ...but Warsaw was the capital...you concede it was political.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #75
@Novichok
It was 1944, most of Poland was occupied by the Nazi's of course it was a political move.
Your blaming victims for resisting tyranny and mass murder. calling them stupid, yet you yapp about people being stupid listening to the U.S government while certainly, you would be a gigantic hypocrite just like the Soviets if people suddenly rose up against the COVID restrictions.
I just can't take you seriously as you seem to only want to degrade the resistance fighting against the Nazi's. As if Soviets were the only ones doing it...
It was 1944, most of Poland was occupied by the Nazi's of course it was a political move.
Your blaming victims for resisting tyranny and mass murder. calling them stupid, yet you yapp about people being stupid listening to the U.S government while certainly, you would be a gigantic hypocrite just like the Soviets if people suddenly rose up against the COVID restrictions.
I just can't take you seriously as you seem to only want to degrade the resistance fighting against the Nazi's. As if Soviets were the only ones doing it...
Let me try one more time...
1. The Uprising was a political move and the war would end the same way with it or without it - except for the timetable.
2. Assume that there was no uprising and go from there. Tell me what you see. What would Germans do with the Soviets on the other side of Wisla and nobody shooting at them over here? Would they linger on, kill 200,000 and destroy the city?
3. No comments about me personally and no stupid analogies, either.
Try Radom for reference. No uprising there. No bombing. I know because my family lived there.
You really think Warsaw would be spared?
1. The Uprising was a political move and the war would end the same way with it or without it - except for the timetable.
2. Assume that there was no uprising and go from there. Tell me what you see. What would Germans do with the Soviets on the other side of Wisla and nobody shooting at them over here? Would they linger on, kill 200,000 and destroy the city?
3. No comments about me personally and no stupid analogies, either.
Try Radom for reference. No uprising there. No bombing. I know because my family lived there.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #77
@Novichok
1. Main enemy was Nazi Germany in 1944, you seem to ignore years of occupation, mass excutions and terror as if nothing had happened.
2. The Germans planned to turn it into a war zone (fortress city) and fight the Soviets off as much as possible. Prolonging the war by fighting with fixed defenses in a dense city near a riverbank. Only an encirclement could have helped if anything, yet it would take a long time before the Soviets would "liberate" it. The casualties would be tremendously high either way, just look up Stalingrad.
After the Warsaw Uprising, the logistical worth of the city wasn't worth defending it at all as everything had been destroyed. All logistics, infrastructure and civilian logistics (active stores, bakeries, magazines, railways etc) was utterly ruined. Making defending the place a very bad idea without expensive repairs, and the Germans had no help whatsoever with that from locals who were either transported to camps, escaped or died.
I honestly can't imagine Warsaw surviving much better, if only a bit better. A remake of the city would had to be done either way after the war.
3. Oh no! What a dementia old pops just like his president! Now we are done, unless you want more.
Radom is a totally different scenario and geographical location. Besides Warsaw uprising was part of a larger operation, where AK helped ambush German frontline troops along everywhere possible, shortly after having their officers arrested and soldiers drafted into the people's army.
1. Main enemy was Nazi Germany in 1944, you seem to ignore years of occupation, mass excutions and terror as if nothing had happened.
2. The Germans planned to turn it into a war zone (fortress city) and fight the Soviets off as much as possible. Prolonging the war by fighting with fixed defenses in a dense city near a riverbank. Only an encirclement could have helped if anything, yet it would take a long time before the Soviets would "liberate" it. The casualties would be tremendously high either way, just look up Stalingrad.
After the Warsaw Uprising, the logistical worth of the city wasn't worth defending it at all as everything had been destroyed. All logistics, infrastructure and civilian logistics (active stores, bakeries, magazines, railways etc) was utterly ruined. Making defending the place a very bad idea without expensive repairs, and the Germans had no help whatsoever with that from locals who were either transported to camps, escaped or died.
I honestly can't imagine Warsaw surviving much better, if only a bit better. A remake of the city would had to be done either way after the war.
3. Oh no! What a dementia old pops just like his president! Now we are done, unless you want more.
Radom is a totally different scenario and geographical location. Besides Warsaw uprising was part of a larger operation, where AK helped ambush German frontline troops along everywhere possible, shortly after having their officers arrested and soldiers drafted into the people's army.
you seem to ignore years of occupation,
You just blew it. Goodbye...
Goodbye...
AKA I was utterly humiliated and shown to be a fool once again. To hide my shame, I am now going to argue with jon about sports..
Good job Oathbreaker! Never knew the plans that the nazis had in defending Warsaw. And the the miracle on the wisla might have been a historical precedence. Novicock hope that is a lesson for your bird brain, don't mess with the big boys.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #80
@amiga500
Don't worry, he wasn't born yesterday. He will lick his wounds and come back. Thank you either way
Don't worry, he wasn't born yesterday. He will lick his wounds and come back. Thank you either way
Quoting:
Why did the Soviets not help in the Warsaw uprising?
A major reason that has also emerged was Stalin had sought to colonize Poland and forming a communist state that worked as a Soviet satellite, and a successful uprising by the Polish Home Army could threaten Stalin's plan, thus chose not to ... supporting the uprising served Stalin's hegemonic ambitions.
Duh! Somehow, the AK just didn't plug that into their debates if to proceed.
Just for reference...AK in Warsaw - 40,000. Soviet army - 12 million and better equipped. But legends die hard and this one is no exception...
Why did the Soviets not help in the Warsaw uprising?
A major reason that has also emerged was Stalin had sought to colonize Poland and forming a communist state that worked as a Soviet satellite, and a successful uprising by the Polish Home Army could threaten Stalin's plan, thus chose not to ... supporting the uprising served Stalin's hegemonic ambitions.
Duh! Somehow, the AK just didn't plug that into their debates if to proceed.
Just for reference...AK in Warsaw - 40,000. Soviet army - 12 million and better equipped. But legends die hard and this one is no exception...
Why did the Soviets not help in the Warsaw uprising?
They decided that it wasn't in their long-term interests.
Duh! Somehow, the AK just didn't plug
They had a binary choice and reason to hope that the Allies would assist them. Some allies did, some didn't...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_airlift
I am now going to argue with jon about sports..
Apparently Poland didn't win that medal at all...
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #83
@Novichok
Stalin was a secretive paranoid person, you thinking that anybody knew what he was planning before opening the Soviet archives is delusional. It was suspected that the Soviets wanted to control Poland for themselves. Yet you think that opposing the Soviets was the main/only argument for the uprising by how your presenting it.
It was one of the shittiest situations in history, just like landing on Iwo Jima. You can complain all you want about that situation too, doesn't change the fact that it was impossible for the American leadership to predict the losses that were there either
Ehrm... Thanks? I try not to pull off anyone as my pulls can be rather hurtful. Which many posters here on the forum can testify to, mostly cause of my clumsy ness.
Stalin was a secretive paranoid person, you thinking that anybody knew what he was planning before opening the Soviet archives is delusional. It was suspected that the Soviets wanted to control Poland for themselves. Yet you think that opposing the Soviets was the main/only argument for the uprising by how your presenting it.
It was one of the shittiest situations in history, just like landing on Iwo Jima. You can complain all you want about that situation too, doesn't change the fact that it was impossible for the American leadership to predict the losses that were there either
Hats off and cheers for Oathbreaker knocking the Top Dog off his horse.
Ehrm... Thanks? I try not to pull off anyone as my pulls can be rather hurtful. Which many posters here on the forum can testify to, mostly cause of my clumsy ness.
to hope that the Allies would assist them.
Proceeding on "hope" is stupid. When the lives of others are involved, it's criminal.
Dropping things from high altitude turned out to be a disaster and was stopped.
They decided that it wasn't in their long-term interests.
And the AK couldn't figure it out? After Katyn, no less. I am running out of FCC-approved words.
it's criminal.
So you're calling them "criminal" now?
And the AK couldn't figure it out?
I doubt they had many options.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #86
@Novichok
only the far right elements suspected it really. Which is why many fought through Czechoslovakia to enter west allied territory to survive after the uprising. At first Germans, passively let them through with vain hope of them teaming up, which was definitive no-go option.
only the far right elements suspected it really. Which is why many fought through Czechoslovakia to enter west allied territory to survive after the uprising. At first Germans, passively let them through with vain hope of them teaming up, which was definitive no-go option.
I personally think that The Uprising leadership made a bad decision. They send kids to die knowing how it will most likely end.
Said that I do admire the dedication and bravery of the simple participants.
Said that I do admire the dedication and bravery of the simple participants.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #88
@Lenka
Kids were mostly used as mail ordinance, very few had any weapons. Many whom had lost parents and had nobody else, it was definitely hard to refuse their eagerness to help out in that situation.
If you mean the teenagers, many of whom were robbed of their peaceful youth and no school prospects, only thing they had learned was hate and destruction in the most brutal war in a very brutal situation.
If you had been there arguing with the teenagers, you would most likely had been ignored or asked to leave the city
Kids were mostly used as mail ordinance, very few had any weapons. Many whom had lost parents and had nobody else, it was definitely hard to refuse their eagerness to help out in that situation.
If you mean the teenagers, many of whom were robbed of their peaceful youth and no school prospects, only thing they had learned was hate and destruction in the most brutal war in a very brutal situation.
If you had been there arguing with the teenagers, you would most likely had been ignored or asked to leave the city
No, I don't mean arguing with them or anything like that. I mean not giving orders to fight.
Oathbreaker 4 | 347
2 Aug 2021 #90
@Lenka
Many of these teenagers even defied their parents, the youth growing up after ww1 Poland were extremely patriotic, many of the youngest even inspired by their older generations. I have a hard time imagining them listening to any rational advice.
Many of these teenagers even defied their parents, the youth growing up after ww1 Poland were extremely patriotic, many of the youngest even inspired by their older generations. I have a hard time imagining them listening to any rational advice.