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Russian Greatness - and its Polish Contributors


Torq 7 | 978
10 Jun 2024 #31
Is that a legit Polish surname?

Unusual, but legit.

Yes, besides the ending (it's "и" instead of "ий").

Exactly.

"Krż" would be difficult to pronounce even for Poles

Not that difficult but it does indeed sound a bit Czech; they have those strč, prst, skrž, krk etc. clusters.
OP Bobko 26 | 2,036
10 Jun 2024 #32
Enough for today.

Tomorrow, I decided, I will give another go to Rokossovski.

One of the most exceptional Soviet commanders in all of WW2 (perhaps, the most talented).

Born in Warsaw in 1896, he started indicating Velikiye Luki as his birthplace, after being awarded two consecutive Hero of the Soviet Union orders.

Known to us as Konstantin Konstantinovich, he was born Konstantin Ksavyerovich. Some historians assert that his real birth name was Kasimir.

His father was Ksaveriy Yuzefovich Rokossovski (Glyaubich and Orsha arms). Inspector of the Warsaw railroads.

In 1949, the Polish President Bolesław Bierut, requested the Soviet government to send the Pole Konstantinos Rokossovski to Warsaw to serve as Minister of Defense.





jon357 74 | 22,730
10 Jun 2024 #33
requested the Soviet government to send

Hahahaha
Paulina 16 | 4,474
10 Jun 2024 #34
Unusual, but legit.

Interesting... I honestly find that hard to believe... Are there any records about such a family? 🤔

Not that difficult

Well, not impossible, but completely unnatural/unheard of in the Polish language...

it does indeed sound a bit Czech; they have those strč, prst, skrž, krk etc. clusters.

It's good to know that not only our language is messed up ;D 😂 ❤️ 🇵🇱🤝🇨🇿

Hahahaha

:)

I don't even comment anymore...
Lyzko 42 | 9,492
10 Jun 2024 #35
Russian is morphologically less complex than Polish,
however Russian pronunciation continues to dog me,
especially those palatalized consonants!
Torq 7 | 978
10 Jun 2024 #36
Are there any records about such a family?

I have no idea. Surnames are sometimes strange.

completely unnatural

Is it completely unnatural? We do have "rży"/"rżeć" and "drży"/"drżeć" after all. But it's very unusual, true.

But this...

the Russians heard two "zh's" in Krzyżanowski but saw an 'r' which is not pronounced in Polish

... is also possible.

We have to write to professor Miodek (or Bralczyk). :)
gumishu 14 | 6,288
10 Jun 2024 #37
one Russian (with no previous ties to Poland) that was thoroughly revered in Poland was Sokrat Starynkiewicz who oversaw turning of Warsaw into a modern European city in the late 19th century -

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokrat_Starynkiewicz
OP Bobko 26 | 2,036
10 Jun 2024 #38
Hahahaha

Yeah "hahahaha".

Find in 1949 in Poland a Pole that had experience of commanding a front consisting of multiple millions of people.

Find a Pole that was treated as an equal by Montgomery and McArthur.

Find a Pole that had the same level of connections in Moscow.
jon357 74 | 22,730
10 Jun 2024 #39
Find in 1949 in Poland

Find in 1949 a r*SSian who was 'invited'...
gumishu 14 | 6,288
10 Jun 2024 #40
Rokossovski.

I learned about it not long ago - but Rokossovski was subjected to torture during the Stalinist purge of the Soviet army in the late 30's (the one that got Tukhachevsky killed) - he did not budge during the interrogations in the aftermath which he could not move one of his eyebrows until he died)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,952
10 Jun 2024 #41
....and still he kept on giving!

Stalin just didn't deserve that kind of loyalty!
jon357 74 | 22,730
10 Jun 2024 #42
Stalin didn't deserve that kind of loyalty

r*SSians worship violence.

A sick culture. The Polish communist, Wera Kostrzewa, had in her (and his) old age the dacha next to Stalin's. One day, he walked over to the fence that separated their gardens and said "your roses are looking better than mine". Within 24 hours she was on the way to the Gulag where she froze to death.
Ironside 50 | 12,467
10 Jun 2024 #43
..and still he kept on giving!

Not that they had a choice. That is why Russians are jealous of others as they live in such a system. Admittedly is not as bad as it is today but still premise remains the same. Your ruler is your god unless he weakens then whoever wins is a new god.
OP Bobko 26 | 2,036
10 Jun 2024 #44
Rokossovski was subjected to torture during the Stalinist purge

He was subjected to extreme hounding and humiliation.

His wife and children were sent into internal exile.

Himself, he was pressured to sign all nature of false confessions which were popular at the time. The price for not signing these confessions, was inhuman beatings and other forms of torture.

He never ratted anyone out. He never confessed. Then, when the time came, and the country came calling - he answered the call.

This is a patriot of Russia.

Russia brutalized him and spat in his face, trampled over everything he held dear, and yet he went out there and laid his soul down for the defense.

This makes Rokossovski more Russian than most Russians.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,952
10 Jun 2024 #45
A sick culture.

You forget that there had been resistance, even armed....the anti-communist "Whites", or even later the Vlasov-army.

And on the other hand there are other examples of whole peoples cowered in fear by so much brutality (Khmer).

That doesn't mean it's the culture!
Paulina 16 | 4,474
10 Jun 2024 #46
I have no idea.

That's the thing, it doesn't come up in Google...

Surnames are sometimes strange.

It wouldn't surprise me if the surname sounded foreign in general, but it looks like a typical Polish surname (with an error)...

Is it completely unnatural? We do have "rży"/"rżeć" and "drży"/"drżeć" after all.

Yes, but "d", "r" and "ż" belong to the same group of Polish consonants as far as the place of articulation is concerned (przedniojęzykowe), while "k" belongs to "tylnojęzykowe" group. That's why "krż" feels less natural/more difficult to pronounce.

Find in 1949 (...) Find a Pole (...) Find a Pole that had the same level of connections in Moscow.

Find me an objective source that states that Bierut requested the Soviet government to send Rokossovski to Warsaw to serve as Minister of Defense (like, genuinely requested).
OP Bobko 26 | 2,036
10 Jun 2024 #47
@Paulina

Did anyone attack Poland since then?

Did Poland kick Hungarian and Czech ass together with us?

Does Poland have a powerful military in the present?

What did Rokossovski do to you that was bad? How did he betray you?
gumishu 14 | 6,288
10 Jun 2024 #48
Within 24 hours she was on the way to the Gulag where she froze to death.

never heard the story - sick indeed
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,952
10 Jun 2024 #49
This is a patriot of Russia.

Okay....that was a special situation....Russia was under attack!

But shouldn't a patriot try to make his country somewhat better?

He knew how Stalin raped and terrorized the country, the people, the mass murder...he suffered himself!

Wouldn't it had been more patriotic to end Stalin? To end that destruction? At least to try?
Paulina 16 | 4,474
10 Jun 2024 #50
What did Rokossovski do to you that was bad? How did he betray you?

Read the "Polska Ludowa" chapter:

pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstanty_Rokossowski
jon357 74 | 22,730
10 Jun 2024 #51
whole peoples cowered in fear by so much brutality (Khmer).

Many got the hell away. Many also stood up to the, and were murdered, much like in r*SSia.

That doesn't mean it's the culture!

It is there; there were like that before the revolution and are like it now.

krż

What would the dot on the z actually do, since the rz sound is there already? Would the r be pronounced separately?
OP Bobko 26 | 2,036
10 Jun 2024 #52
Wouldn't it had been more patriotic to end Stalin?

And lose the war and present our undefended anus to Das Deutsches Reich?

Vlasov tried that.

He is now forever the Judas of the Russian people. His name is mixed with sh*t, anytime it is mentioned.

Life was no picnic back then. There was no justice to be found. Men like him, that acted responsibly regardless of this chaos - we owe them a special debt.

Rokossovski is one of the greatest Poles in history for Russians.
gumishu 14 | 6,288
10 Jun 2024 #53
Would the r be pronounced separately?

yes - Torq gave examples (drżeć (to tremble among other meanings) or rżeć (to neigh))

pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstanty_Rokossowski

from what I read Rokossowski personally saved a couple of Polish resistence members (after 1945) sentenced to death by the Polish communists
Paulina 16 | 4,474
10 Jun 2024 #54
Would the r be pronounced separately?

Yes.

from what I read Rokossowski personally saved a couple of Polish resistence members (after 1945) sentenced to death by the Polish communists

That death sentence was possible in the first place because Rokossovski gave the order for the purge in the Polish military. He didn't save the others from his own order.
Torq 7 | 978
10 Jun 2024 #55
Men like him, that acted responsibly regardless of this chaos

Makes sense. Piłsudski had his vehement opponents too but in the Polish-Soviet war they were there in the trenches together with Piłsudski's most dedicated followers.

As for Rokossovski, he is perceived mostly negatively in Poland; yes, he defended characteristic Polish military traditions (two-finger salute, rogatywkas, cross-shaped medals etc.) and considered himself a Pole, but he was very ideologically minded and initiated stalinist purges in Wojsko Polskie, sending many Polish patriots (a lot of them pre-war officers) to their deaths.
jon357 74 | 22,730
10 Jun 2024 #56
As for Rokossovski, he is perceived mostly negatively in Poland

He'll be posting about Wanda Wasilewska next...
OP Bobko 26 | 2,036
10 Jun 2024 #57
Your negative appraisals are valued at close to zero by me.

yes, he defended characteristic Polish military traditions

Kania, dearest...

Polish military traditions are important, and it is always - in general - important to be respectful towards local customs and traditions.

But I feel you are focusing on the crumbs along the kitchen table, while we have this grand turkey of a feast situated in the middle.

The man, did more than any Western commander to defeat Nazi Germany.

He is a hero of quite literally legendary status in Russia.

He commanded MILLIONS of people.

As a professional military man, that was forced to go to Warsaw to serve in the civilian role of "Minister of Defense" - I'm sure most of the time he was bored out of his mind and was not very efficient.
pawian 224 | 24,500
10 Jun 2024 #58
he is perceived mostly negatively in Poland

He was a Soviet traitor. He supervised political oppression against officers in the post war army. Sent back to the USSR by the new leadership in 1956.

Your negative appraisals

I thought you intended to learn sth about Poland and Poles/Polesses. Like 3 years ago you were surprised that we don`t cherish Dzierżyński`s memory.
Torq 7 | 978
10 Jun 2024 #59
Your negative appraisals are valued at close to zero by me.

I'm sorry to hear that, Bobi. I'm just telling you about the general perception of Rokossowski in Poland.

Sent back to the USSR by the new leadership in 1956.

After Stalin's death, it was only a question of time when his faithful praetorian is sent back home. As I said, the purges in the Polish Army that he initiated and supervised is what shaped his image in Poland.

The man, did more than any Western commander to defeat Nazi Germany.

I don't deny that. Hero of Soviet Union no doubt. But it so happens that heroes of one country are not necessarily perceived as such in another. Life.
OP Bobko 26 | 2,036
10 Jun 2024 #60
I thought you intended to learn sth about Poland and Poles/Polesses

How do you know that I am NOT learning right now, at this very moment?

I'm sorry to hear that, Bobi

Apologies Monsieur - this was addressed at my nemesis.


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