@pawian "Maybe. But you need to do it first coz it was you who started it." I'm talking about the repeated insults to my parents "This is a topic for discussion, but in another thread" Interesting and you can suggest it, because you are part of this Forum. PS. Your English is not that bad.
#44
There weren't "by chance", millions of Poles (entire families) both under Tsarism and under the Soviets (before, during and after WWII)?. They owed it in large part to the Jews !!!
How many deaths? Huge. They were falling like ugly flies and not even buried. this is partly what the Poles owe the Jews. Ironically, even to those who were saved by the Poles.
PS. Applebaum's book on the Gulag isn't good. Herling-Grudzinski est le témoignage poignant de son et des autres expériences dans cette horreur.
#53
"It very much seems that one of the things the Poles owe to Jews (and the other victims of the holocaust) is to not try to equate the gulags with the Nazi death camps."
Yes, it was indeed the mass death camps (genocide = holocaust) done in a slower way (longer suffering, but also effective
"The holocaust was a Jewish tragedy and a Polish tragedy (and a Romani tragedy): we should not stand by and let revisionists rewrite history and change the past."
more Jehova tragedy, more mentally ill tragedy, more gay / lesbian tragedy, etc.
@jon357 #50 "incidents relating to Polish partisans, some NSZ"
How much incidents? What about killing Jews, stealing ethnic Poles and denouncing them with joy to the Soviets sending Poles to the Gulags.
"Worczyn massacre"
The most striking case is that of Worczyn, in 1943, where 120 partisans of Jewish origin were killed by militants of the NSZ. The operations of the NSZ (Santacroce Brigade against the German and Soviet occupier as well as against formations of left partisans (Communists & Socialists, mostly Jews, collaborating with the Soviets).
NSZ, joined the 27th Division of the AK, killed120 Jews in the village of Worczyn, because they were Communists, collaborating with Soviets for the persecutions of Polish ethnic people.
For this reason, after the incorporation of Poland into the Soviet Empire in 1944 (PKWN government), the NSZ suffered a "damnatio memoriaece". However, in May 1945, Brigade liberated the German concentration camp of Holýšov and, at the end of the conflict, used by the Americans in the areas of German occupation.
According to historians (T. Piotrowski and W. Goldkorn), their implication in the persecution of the Jews seems to be confirmed and they do not hesitate to define their activity as "anti-Jewish".So, a strong defamation for "anti-Jewish" motives was unleashed in the jewish media.
During the 1990s, the history of the Santacroce Brigade was reassessed. It was established that she rightly regarded Soviet communism as an enemy no different from that of the German Nazis. Evidence of the massacre of Jewish partisans has been downplayed.
Their action which at the beginning of the 1990s was qualified as "patriotic" with the justification of proof that the Jews were those who militated most in the ranks of the Communist Resistance, favoring the Soviet action against the ethnic Poles. In short, traitors (at least potential) of the Polish homeland have been killed. In 1992, the leaders of the NSZ were rehabilitated and decorated for their bravery.
@Alien It wasen't primary or secondary. All this jews was polish citizen, right? But special jews, killing, stealing, dispossessing ethnic Poles and denouncing them to the Soviets to send them to the Gulags.Well, it's clear.
They killed only this polish communist traitors of jewish community, collaboratig with Sowiets. Unhappily, They d'dn't chance to kill Poles jews, Bielski Brothers, communists, almonst very brutal bandits, comparing to Ukrainian UPA atrocity towards ethnics Polish cithizen - the genocide subject all time officialy forbiden
"It wasen't primary or secondary. All this jews was polish citizen, right? But special jews, killing, stealing, dispossessing ethnic Poles and denouncing them to the Soviets to send them to the Gulags.Well, it's clear."
no ethnic poles wwre sent to gulags for being polaks morons. they also like the juden you hate had dirt under their fingers scum. yea upa did that so did the fuking umericans younpolaks lick thwir ******** to indians and blacks lame. google trail of tears and sedond wounded knee only like 40 yrs ago lame.
Right, but not Poles since nobody ever asked: All Poles were Polish citizens, right? Such a question would be greeted with what??? and that special tone of voice we use when reacting to stupid questions.
if you think polaks are less violent than Ukrainians or didnt do the same shet your retarded. or as upa. secondly, i seriously must be a daint. for what Americans amerikkkka s did to me so many yrs so many times i should be killing their tourists here by now if i was same person as those Ukrainians in upa or polaks in ak at the time. trust me i have way more excuses fir hate if u study what hapoened to me and how i suffered than any of them by the hands of the us of a. imagine being thrown in a California cdcr gular for simply fighting back against pathology and a garbage human gypsy wielodzietny named raphael luciano and tortured for yrs on end. wouldnt you do what upa did to their tourists later? i must be a real humanist for letting it go and not doing what everyone else would have.
" They killed only this polish communist traitors of jewish community, collaborating with Sowiets. Unhappily, They d'dn't chance to kill Poles jews, Bielski Brothers, communists, almost very brutal bandits, comparing to Ukrainian UPA atrocity towards ethnics Polish cithizen - the genocide subject all time officially forbidden"
you know nothing of history. thos polaks ak members and others collaborated with sovietsnjust like jews but to right upa retard. look up how your polish buddies collaborated with soviets because they were too scared of upa including your great hero ogien.
Assimilated Jews desired nothing more than to blend into Polish society. Sadly, their shtettl brethren often didn't share this enthusiasm, hence spoiling things for everybody else, namely, for the savvy, well-meaning urbanite Polish Jews and, as in Germany, THIS was in the end the dirty shame of it all.
@Lyzko They managed that perfectly fine, except with the Polish right wing. Cause it was deemed to live according to ones religious belief, trouble is that if a Hebrew is to live according to his religious belief he can't be part of the Polish nation. Unless he became Catholic, one can't be part of two different Israeli nations at the same time.
Here is a link if you are interested to know more,
Yes you are right, as you surely know Poland had tradition of tolerance (how it looked like differed in volume throughout history) so intermingling between faiths was normal. Very similar to the U.S with aspect of multiculturalism. It's very "unnormal" how Poland is now today, compared to a very mixed society through most of Polish history
Germans established the concept of "race" or "racial hygene" as a method of excluding, later eliminating, all others whom they deemed either not "German", or, not German "enough"! This practice was unique to German-speaking lands, as it differed sharply from other nations such as the Poles, the French, the Spaniards, later the Communist Russians, for whom mere unquestioning obedience to the State, in some cases, converting to the state religion, was all that was necessary for Jews to exist or cohabitate side-by-side with their gentile neighbors.
@Lyzko Loyalty has a lot to say in group mentality, in Poland it's specifically tied to ones willingness to defend Poland militarily. During the Swedish deluge, a group of pacifists opposed fighting the Swedes and were considered traitors to Poland and henceforth banished in to exile. They brought later on the tradition of tolerance onward to U.S.A. Where a majority Protestant country had several other religious denominations, the choice was either civil war over it or tolerating the presence without agreeing to their dogmatic position.
@Lyzko To the point of Swedes thinking they always been nice and peaceful. Which seemed to be a new level of self deception I have never seen before, totally blind to their past. It borders on total ridiculousness.
@Strzelec35 #516 "no ethnic poles wwre sent to gulags for being polaks morons".
Ethnic Poles were sent because they were just Poles, that's all. If you remember after war, the Soviets communists (Stalin) wanted to raze Warsaw so that nothing of the Polish past remains.
"the juden you hate"
I never said that. I am only saying openly that the Jews were not so "holy" as they presented themselves after their genocide in II WW.
They also committed atrocities towards their own people, some of whom could have been saved. You must know that saving a Jew in Poland was much more dangerous than in France, Holland, Belgium etc.
Then their number was not comparable. What would all these official collaborating countries of Germany have done if they had so many Jews in their country (approximately 3,400,000), 85% of whom did not speak the language of their country? It would be a disaster and no Jew, no doubt, would not have survived.
@Novichok # 517 "Right, but not Poles since nobody ever asked: All Poles were Polish citizens, right? Such a question would be greeted with what ???"
Good question. Having been in several countries, no one has ever said "All this jews was polish citizen". Why? Because there is propaganda from the west, plus Putin's rewrite of history. Their media prefer to repeat, to boredom, "virulent anti-Judaism" of the Poles, without knowing the facts of the history of Judaism in Poland.
The laws of the Second Republic are deliberately forgotten, as the representation of the Jews of all political factions in the Polish Sejm, Free primary school for all young Polish children, regardless of their origin, etc.
But, Orthodoic Jews preferred to pay almonds and not send their children to state schools. As a result, before the war, about 85% of this community did not speak Polish at all, which had negative consequences in their elimination by the Germans.
We can ask ourselves the question if there were so many Jews in any country in Europe, would they have so many rights and should they not be fully assimilated in their host country?
I say, surely, and all should speak the language of their country.
about 85% of this community did not speak Polish at all, which had negative consequences in their elimination by the Germans.
Frankly, I did know that. Now the question is why Poles were so damn stupid to risk their lives for these foreign implants that didn't even have the decency to learn the language of the host. I wonder if Germans had the same problem back in the thirties - a parasitic foreign nation in a nation.
Actually not....where in central/eastern Europe Stetls with yiddish speaking orthodox, quite isolated living Jews were more common, in the Germany before the Nazis there wouldn't fit a leaf between christian and jewish Germans....they were the best adapted and integrated minority...indistinguishable by clothing, looks, manners, language....patriotic to boot....part of the cultural, scientific, artist elite.....an asset to the german society, not parasites....thats why Hitlers hate was so puzzling (maybe because he was Austrian)!
I read that many of the german Jews looked down their noses towards their Stetl brethren in the East...there was definitely a divide!
@Strzelec35 # 518 "If you think polaks are less violent thwn ukrianians or didnt do the same shet"
I do not compare, but I rely on proven facts and documents. Particularly brutal genocide and unique in Europe, always forgotten, the Butcher's shop in Wołyń.
Until today, no monument to the victims of this genocide is allowed in Ukraine. In Poland, only associations do it, for ex. in Chelm, but not the Polish government, just for "political" reasons. The mass murder of entire Polish families, only from one region of Poland, looks worse (long suffering for the same result) than, gas chamber. This carnage has never been committed against Jews like (2-year-old children-eyes gouged out, babies-sawn off, pregnant women- belly and breasts cut off, old people, women, children-impaled, heads, hands, arms, legs cut off. ax, scythe, pierced by pitchforks, private parts torn off, cut, men quartered, shredded, killed, burned, etc.
200,000 - 300,000 ethnic Poles thus ended their lives at the hands of Ukrainians of UPA, and even Ukrainian neighbors of these Poles, in Volhynia-1942-1944. (Some Ukrainian neighbors helped them or were also killed)
In all AK units in the regin, until early 1944, there were a maximum of 1,500 people. On the other hand in the OUN-UPA at the end of 1943, there were at least 20,000 people throughout the territory of its action. In Volyn, the main area of operation in 1943, they were much better armed (German, Soviet weapons) than the troops of the Polish army, AK. In addition, UPA were supported by almost the entire Ukrainian community (mostly neighbors), six times larger than the Polish population.
It is also important to point out, that the district commander AK Wołyń, col. Kazimierz Bąbiński "Luboń" (foreseeing revenge, in the first weeks of the mass genocide against the Poles by Ukrainians), on April 22, 1943, gave an order addressed to the nascent self-defense as follows:
"We will not burn Ukrainian farms or kill Ukrainian women and children in retaliation. This order was valid until the end of the presence of Polish self-defense units and partisans in Volyn."
The Polish civilian population tried to find refuge in larger settlements and forests, where they finally found the support of the Polish Home Army. In this context, a complete alarm and communication system was organized as well as self-defense alliances. According to the order of Colonel Kazimierz Damian Bąbiński of May 17, 1943, had as its sole objective the protection of the Polish civilian population, but no cooperation with Soviet or German units, nor use the same brutal methods of killing practiced by Ukrainians .
The story of "Poles jews, Bielski Brothers", communists, almonst very brutal bandits, comparing to Ukrainian UPA atrocity towards ethnics Polish cithizen is the genocide subject voluntarily all time "officialy forbiden".
The poor Jews who were with them in the woods suffered greatly from hunger and treatment, while they abounded in food and in harems of young women from the community and no action against the German occupiers.
In contrast, The West goes into ecstasies while watching the film about their so-called "partisan bravery" and their collaboration with Soviet partisans.
"you know nothing of history. thos polaks ak members and others collaborwted with soviets"
I probably know more about the history of that time and after the war than you do. You talk about your terrible personal story without specifying it and without giving concrete facts of the Polish history, as I do with facts. I do not deny collaboration with the Soviets of Polish Communists (Berman-Jew, Jaruzelski, Berling, etc.) traitors to Poland. The Soviets put them in power for 50 years of strong power.
PS. The rest of your comments are incomprehensible, because of your Anglo-American slang and out of context.
@Lyzko # 519 "Assimilated Jews desired nothing more than to blend into Polish society."
That's right and they were well integrated into Polish society without forgetting their traditions.
What Oathbreake says "if a Hebrew is to live according to his religious belief he can't be part of the Polish nation. Unless he became Catholic, one can't be part of two different Israeli nations at the same time."
It's a pure invention. What "two different Israeli nations". The Jews are a motley community, bound by religion and certain cultural customs.
Nobody forced them to change their religion. Like you surely know, Poland had the greatest tradition of tolerance throughout its history. In free Poland after 1918, a multitude of synagogues and yeshivas were built, known and frequented by Jews from all over the world.
This fact alone, already prevented the integration of these Jews in their country, and their fate that the Germans prepared for them.
Lyzko # 525 "Germans established the concept of" race "or" racial hygene "as a method of excluding, later eliminating, all others."
In theory this is correct. Loyalty to their host "goys" country was understandable. Only in each country the anti-Jewish feeling existed, and in Poland, was not greater than elsewhere, despite the very specific situation.
Quantitatively, for, ex. the population of Warsaw alone, 375,000 Polish Jewish citizens, was equivalent to the total population of one largest country in Europe, was France.
Even the law of "lawkowe", shortly before the war, did not prevent the Poles juifs, from having numerous scholarships for study abroad, which is rather paradoxical compared to this law.
The Bible is a book. Somebody wrote that book. Typically, with a pen and on paper. What inspired the authors is another matter. No miracles, though, since miracles don't exist. Never did, never will.
Do you have recorded witnesses of feeding hundreds out of one basket of food ?
miracles don't exist.
Said the blind man who tripped and fell over his hammer and saw.
Never did, never will.
Explain how prophesy written over 2000 years ago is coming true every day now in detail then. Every knee shall bow Loon, even yours. Let's argue.......
