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What do Poles owe to Hungarians?


mafketis 35 | 11,225
19 Apr 2022 #61
a democratically elected leader who upheld the rules of democracy

But she was in office far too long, crippling the entire political system along the way. After 8-10 years, no head of state is really effective at serving the citizenry - they begin to serve themselves which is bad for the system as a whole.

Worst, she continued the horrifically misguided policy of making Germany into a hostage of a dictator by making the economy so dependent on Russian hydrocarbons. She wasn't the only or worst guilty party in that process but what did she do to stop it or provide alternatives?
Tacitus 2 | 1,626
19 Apr 2022 #62
Orban was elected democratically as well,

And since then he has been rigging the rules in order to stay in power. Redrawing voting restricts, banning media that portrays him unfavourably and outspending the opposition 10:1 during election campaigns. Merkel has done nothing of the sort.

crippling the entire political system along the way

Nonsense. There was a very smooth transfer of power after her departure. Smoother than Ibmight add in e.g. the USA.

no head of state is really effective at serving

Her exceptional handling of the Covid crisis begs to differ. We got really lucky that we had her, instead of someone like Johnson who has now blood on his hands.

horrifically misguided policy

That "horrifically misguided policy" helped keeping the peace in Europe for 50 years. In hindsight it was wrong to continue it past 2015, but there was little to no support for a drastic change in Germany back then. Other countries felt the same, even countries like Poland that had been sceptical of Moscow still bought gas from Russia.

That failing of her is more than balanced by her defence of the EU. If not for Merkel, Ukraine would not today be in position in which it can aspire to join the EU, and Europe would be even more fragmented and vulnerable to Russian aggression.
mafketis 35 | 11,225
19 Apr 2022 #63
there was little to no support for a drastic change in Germany back then

Or now.... at least among those who count.

Was the German economy less, more or equally dependent upon Russian goodwill at the end of her chancellorship? Did she move the economy away from or closer to Russia?

That's all that matters.
Tacitus 2 | 1,626
19 Apr 2022 #64
at least among those who count

Quite the opposite. Germany is now sending arms to an active war zone. Buying gas from Qatar and the USA. Keeping coal plants longer online. All approved by ministers from the Green party. A seismic change to be sure.

That's all that matters.

It might look so now under the direct impression of the war, but this will perspective will change in a few years. People will then appreciate that we still have an economy and the EU.
jon357 71 | 20,037
19 Apr 2022 #65
I think that Orban doesn't think about it

Orban is too far in bed with russia to easily back away now. Plus they fancy a land grab of Ukrainian and other territories where they have irredentist ambitions.

There are already calls (very reasonable ones) to sanction Germany who are finding themselves increasingly without friends. Hungary too should probably be sanctioned as well.
Tacitus 2 | 1,626
19 Apr 2022 #66
to sanction Germany

What for? Honestly jon, your germanphobia is showing.
Lenka 3 | 2,895
19 Apr 2022 #67
@Jon

Quite silly notions
jon357 71 | 20,037
19 Apr 2022 #68
@Lenka
Irredentism?.

Very. And dangerous too
amiga500 2 | 1,129
19 Apr 2022 #69
Quite the opposite. Germany is now sending arms to an active war zone

And yet ten minutes ago on the news, I just heard the major of kiev, klitczko, condemning germany for not sending arms yet and continueining to debate it. I think you have delusions of grandeur about your country. Germanphobia? more like Merkelphillia on your part.
Tacitus 2 | 1,626
19 Apr 2022 #70
Germany has been sending arms to Ukraine, Klitschko is not arguing that Germany is not sending any weapons.

Klitschko is condemning Germany for not sending heavy arms like Tanks. Ignoring some serious doubts how useful the available tanks would be in any case, it is rather telling he singles out Germany for criticism despite the fact that no other country - except the Czech Republic who could so on short notice - has send any such weaponry.

There are no Abrams or Challengers in Ukraine either, but somehow the lack of Leopards' is what is deplorable.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,363
19 Apr 2022 #71
Merkel has done nothing of the sort.

She didn't have to. In Germany you have fat cats, news mogouls and German goverment working hand in hand. They so closly sew that it is like three leged pillars of German system that keep everything in check.

Why Orban creating simlar structure for Hungary is a problem?
Is that becouse Germany can't meddle into it?

keeping the peace in Europe for 50 years.

That German hubirs! That was USA in Europe that made that possible. Lets give them that.

@jon
Orban is not supporting Putin but is supporting his counrty. I can understand his resons.
jon357 71 | 20,037
19 Apr 2022 #72
Orban is not supporting Putin

The same Orban who said Hungary should not get "between the Ukrainian anvil and the Russian sledgehammer"?

German

So many threads (especially in relation to russia's war against Ukraine get turned into ones discussing germany. Anyone would think there are people trying to make excuses for their shabby behaviour. Perhaps we can expect more of that as that country is increasingly marginalised. If sanctions come (as they may), doubtless there will be more.

For the record, there are also calls for sanctions against certain French companies that continue to trade there.

It would be interesting to know how many russian intelligence assets there are in public life there.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,551
19 Apr 2022 #73
@jon357

Germany and France are both far too weak on Russia and need to be brought into line.
Lyzko 37 | 8,566
21 Apr 2022 #74
Orban and Fidesz will gradually be the death of European democracy, along of course with Mme. Le Pen!
Now the Hungarian gov't. is being faced with a choice; support Putin or Ukraine.
jon357 71 | 20,037
21 Apr 2022 #75
@Miloslaw
A lot of people are saying this.

One danger is that they're expediting EU entry so they and Italy can scoop up reconstruction contracts, freezing the U.K. and the U.S. out.

Orban and Fidesz will gradually be the death of European democracy

They're trying to do that.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,551
21 Apr 2022 #76
Orban and Fidesz will gradually be the death of European democracy

I really don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion.
You have an American view of Europe and poor understanding of ir.
The Hungarians may well change The EU's direction.
But that is all.
The death of European democracy is further away than that of American democracy.
Please behave Lyzko.....
Lyzko 37 | 8,566
21 Apr 2022 #77
You conveniently ignore the Le Pen factor...as Macron's quietly angsting far from public view.
I have an American view of Europe much as you seem to have a British (notice I never said "European" in deference to a post-BREXIT UK) view of the States.

What's the difference other than you wishing to feel schoolmasterly and superior?
:-)
gumishu 12 | 6,007
22 Apr 2022 #78
Now the Hungarian gov't. is being faced with a choice; support Putin or Ukraine.

they don't have to choose at all: Germany is leading the resistence to sanctions against Russia - so Hungary is fine and dandy
gumishu 12 | 6,007
22 Apr 2022 #79
Other countries felt the same, even countries like Poland that had been sceptical of Moscow still bought gas from Russia.

Poland bought gas from Russia after 2015 because it was bound by a long term take-or-pay contract that was signed during the PO/PSL government that expires later this year

- the current government did a lot of to wean off of Russian gas: it's building a gas pipeline from Denmark to Poland which is supposed to pump gas this autumn, it finished the LNG terminal in Świnoujście and plans another one in Gdańsk area
jon357 71 | 20,037
23 Apr 2022 #80
- the current government

Don't worry. The next government after the PiSflappers are out will do even more in this respect.
Crow 160 | 10,261
23 Apr 2022 #81
Poland owe to Hungary at least not to fuc*-up Hungarians. Really. At least that.
gumishu 12 | 6,007
25 Apr 2022 #82
will do even more in this respect.

like what?
amiga500 2 | 1,129
25 Apr 2022 #83
The next government after the PiSflappers are out

Yeah it's always 'at the next election those fascists will get thrown out!' rinse repeat ad nauseum, yeah maybe in 2026/2027 or so...
jon357 71 | 20,037
25 Apr 2022 #84
As they just have been in Slovenia and of course France has dodged a bullet.

And the idea of a further PiS regime is risible.
Lenka 3 | 2,895
25 Apr 2022 #85
And the idea of a further PiS regime is risible.

As much as I dislike PiS calling them regime, especially in the light of Russia and Belarus is risible.
jon357 71 | 20,037
25 Apr 2022 #86
@Lenka

It is precisely that.

In life (as Viktor Orban and JK are probably not self aware enough to figure out, it's generally best not to show yourself up more than is avoidable, and it's also best to steer clear of exposing yourself to allegations of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Why not look the word regime up in a dictionary before trying backchat about terminology with someone posting in their native language?
Lenka 3 | 2,895
25 Apr 2022 #87
While you can of course play the dictionary game the truth is in general usage it describes authoritarian/undemocratic government
jon357 71 | 20,037
25 Apr 2022 #88
play the dictionary game

You mean use a word?

is in general usage it describes

In your understanding perhaps.

And both PiS and Fidesz are by the way unashamedly authoritarian, as the events of the past couple of years demonstrate.

Undemocratic? Who said that? You, not me. And to be fair, you'd be right this time; both regimes have experienced pro-democracy protests attended by thousands and international criticism too,..
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,363
25 Apr 2022 #89
And the idea of a further PiS regime is risible.

That is just nosense. Across Europe there are counries that forces that rule them do not change that much or do not chnage at all. It could be a diffrenet party but all stay the same.

France, Germany, Italy all dance to the same music.
La Pen is the same almost she only got rep from her father.
They are real facist those who want cetralized state to decide about evrerthing and tell people how to live and how to teach their children. Those are authoritrian regimes.

Your argument is not with a authoritrin regime but with the policy of those regime. If its policy align with your views you call it deomcratic and cheer it up, if not you call it facist, far right or a regime and boo it.

There is not other diffrernce all those government that take away freedoms and rights from people and make them walk the line as the state knows better are facist authoritarian regimes - all of them. German, French, Hungarian even Poland althought our PiS is too inept to be in the same league with them.
jon357 71 | 20,037
25 Apr 2022 #90
forces that rule them do not change that much

Elections do make a difference, except to conspiraloons.

if not you call it facist, far right

If the cap fits wear it, if it doesn't, then you are of course wrong. Orban's regime is however openly far right, and fascist is a very reasonable word to describe them.They tick all the boxes.

regime

Which it is. You're making the same mistake as the person before; you are thinking of the Polish word rezim and pretending that a similar sounding word in a language you know far less carried the same nuanced meaning. It doesn't.


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