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Poland's undying debt to Polonia


p3undone 8 | 1,135
4 Oct 2012 #31
I will visit someday.I don't mind talking with anyone with this issue.I learn a lot this way and if I need to confirm it I will.I don't take anything at face value,but I gather everything I hear or read,process it and then I give an opinion..
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
4 Oct 2012 #32
So, P3undone and 4 eigner, you two would answer yes to the following two questions Gregorz posed, or do "nuances" not include economics and foriegn policy? And if not what do they include and why are they important? Aren't you just mired in some romantic notion of "wisdom" being imparted from merely being present specific geographical locations?

Do you think a German expert on international relations by deafult know less about foreign policy of America than some average Joe from Nevada, just becasue he doesn't live in America ? Do you think I know less about US economy than Jose "no speak Americano" wash disher, who made it into Texas several months ago, just because he lives in the States ?

What are your answers? Are you going to disparage book learnin' like some quaint rustics?
Harry
4 Oct 2012 #33
^ p3, let me know a few weeks in advance when you're in Warsaw. I'm not licensed, so I can't give you a proper tour, but I can certainly wander round the city reading aloud from a certain book!

Edit, to make sure this post is on topic, I will extend that offer to all Polonia as a part payment of whatever debt this country might have to Polonia.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
4 Oct 2012 #34
I can read just as well as anyone and I can learn about what Polish life is about as well.I will never try to tell People in Poland how they should run their country as this is why I made my statement in the first place.Des Essientes you don't really know me at all and if you think that I take anything that anyone says as fact then you're quite wrong.Any one that is willing to impart their knowledge;I will take it,but then I always check it out.I'll take book learning from a rustic over book learning from some one who has never been there....
Harry
4 Oct 2012 #35
Sounds good p3: bring books; I'll bring my photos of my neighbourhood between 1939 and 1944 and takee you to the exact same place where the camera was then and point to what there is now. And then I can show you photos from 1989 and do the same. Warsaw's changed a tad!
RubasznyRumcajs 5 | 492
4 Oct 2012 #36
I just wonder: why the hack someone who has left Poland (or simply speaking: was never living there), not working there and not paying taxes should have a right to vote- sorry, but many Poles (especially those who left Poland in 80s/90s) have absolutely broken image of their country.
pgtx 30 | 3,156
4 Oct 2012 #37
+1 RubasznyRumcajs
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
4 Oct 2012 #38
I'll take book learning from a rustic over book learning from some one who has never been there....

But book learning is what a rustic lacks.
Why don't you answer the questions that Gregorz posed to you and that I reposted above? I suspect it is because you know that your position is absurd. It is quite possible, dare I say probable, that educated Polonians living abroad may be better informed about the nature of Polish history, and Polish culture, than some semi-educated foreigners living in Poland and teaching English. The latter may know more about the current weather in Poland and but so what?
Harry
4 Oct 2012 #39
RR: at present they should have the right to vote because Polish law says they should.

Should Polish law say they can? That's a whole other question. And one which may be off topic.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
4 Oct 2012 #40
Grzegorz,even if someone is better educated about Poland than someone who is from there,this still doesn't make them more qualified than someone who lives there when it come to how Poles should run their Country.You will never have quite the same out look and understanding because our environment and societal interaction is what shapes us.These things can't be shaped by books.You may read about the culture of Poland and have an academic understanding of it,but it will never resonate the same way with someone who was born and raised there.
4 eigner 2 | 831
4 Oct 2012 #41
Absolutely, experience for book knowledge, no doubt about it. Obviously it doesn't mean that people should quit reading books, though. School education is very important but remains pretty insufficient if not supported by any experience.
Meathead 5 | 495
4 Oct 2012 #43
Again - why should Poland feel thankful for this? America (of which the US Polonia are a part) betrayed Poland in WW2 - all the cash in the world can't make up for the fact that this betrayal happened.

Poland chose communism after WWII, they weren't betrayed by anyone. The US offered Poland the Marshall Plan but Poland rejected it. After WWII communism wasn't discredited like it is now. Many people thought it was the future of the world.

Yes, notice it and realize that it is the bitterness of some British expatriates in Poland that accounts for their hostility towards Polonians and not any legitimate gripe.
Polonians helped Poland struggle for her independance from the times of partition onwards. Britain shamefully recognized the partitions as legitimate. It is no wonder that some British posters here would want to shut down threads about Polonians. They are ashamed.

Britain didn't betray Poland either. When Germany invaded Poland in 1939 the British declared war in spite of the fact that they weren't prepared for war and the population did not support a war with Germany. The English and French were so ill prepared that the Germans overran the English and French Armies in as little as three weeks and pushed them into the English Channel at Dunkirk.

Very correct. Only 1% of the total population of 11 million Polish-Americans voted for the PiS party.

The only people who vote in Poland's elections are recent emigres from Poland. No one else. (Except Polonius).
sobieski 107 | 2,128
4 Oct 2012 #44
Poland chose communism after WWII, they weren't betrayed by anyone. The US offered Poland the Marshall Plan but Poland rejected it

Communism was imposed on Poland. Stalin forbid his satellite states to accept Marshall aid.
peterweg 37 | 2,320
4 Oct 2012 #45
Poland chose communism after WWII, they weren't betrayed by anyone.

Thats bullshit.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
4 Oct 2012 #46
Poland chose communism after WWII, they weren't betrayed by anyone. The US offered Poland the Marshall Plan but Poland rejected it. After WWII communism wasn't discredited like it is now. Many people thought it was the future of the world.

Some Poles might have chosen it, but the majority certainly didn't. If they chose it willingly, then why was the 3xTAK referendum rigged so badly?

sorry, but many Poles (especially those who left Poland in 80s/90s) have absolutely broken image of their country.

Indeed. I've seen an excellent series of photos from Poznan during Communism, and the city is quite unrecognisable now.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
4 Oct 2012 #47
Poland chose communism after WWII, they weren't betrayed by anyone. The US offered Poland the Marshall Plan but Poland rejected it. After WWII communism wasn't discredited like it is now. Many people thought it was the future of the world.

Surly you jest! Nobody can be that stupid, right? At least I hope so!
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------
As for the reason of this unprecedented crusade of few British posers against Pol-Am poster is the fact that many of them do not agree with PC liberal view of the world and events presented by those few in numbers by very vocal and numerous in abusive words and posts PF members,

They even are of opinion (Pol-Am posters) that being part of the forum means debating on any given subject and they are used to express freely their opinions. Whereas enlightened trio on PF are terrified and feel abused when somebody ignores and mock such modern and progressive concept like taboo.

There are taboo words, taboo expression, taboo minorities and if somebody do not respect that, he/she abuses their religious beliefs.
Did you think that fanatical Muslims backwoods dwellers are bad when they think that somebody insults their beliefs? Poor soul you obviously haven't met famous PF trio!

lol!
weg04
4 Oct 2012 #48
Meat head is a Pol-Am
sobieski 107 | 2,128
4 Oct 2012 #49
Poor soul you obviously haven't met famous PF trio!
lol!

You have to be ONR.
goofy_the_dog
4 Oct 2012 #50
I just wonder: why the hack someone who has left Poland (or simply speaking: was never living there), not working there and not paying taxes should have a right to vote- sorry, but many Poles (especially those who left Poland in 80s/90s) have absolutely broken image of their country.

Ok, good question so let me answer you:

Just somebody doesn't live in one's country doesn't mean that they don't love it... most of these peoole (including good me) have a lot of their families still living in the Old Country, so we want to care for them by voting on the best possible political option etc...

I bet that if a war would broke out including Poland (God forbid), you'd be calling us a traitors if we wouldn't come back to Poland to defend it...

Cheers!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
5 Oct 2012 #51
Just somebody doesn't live in one's country doesn't mean that they don't love it

Sorry, but Poland is a free country. If someone loved Poland, they'd stay here - hence why several non-Poles on this forum stay here.

most of these peoole (including good me) have a lot of their families still living in the Old Country, so we want to care for them by voting on the best possible political option etc...

If you want to care for them, you'd pay taxation in Poland and help us deal with the rampant social problems. Poland's rate of volunteering is the worst in the EU - why not come here and help change that for us?

Wielki Polak on here already offered - and he has my utmost respect for doing so. But he's the only one that ever took me up on my offer of sorting out a volunteer placement here.

I bet that if a war would broke out including Poland (God forbid), you'd be calling us a traitors if we wouldn't come back to Poland to defend it...

Of course we would - anyone claiming to love Poland and yet hiding in the UK from a war would be nothing but a lying bastard.
goofy_the_dog
5 Oct 2012 #52
If you really want to know, after I finish my Uni in this country, and have some proper experience in my line of work I will probably go back... or maybe not... it really depends only on my job. For now, the Polish unemployment is really high, and I don't think that this trend will change in a year or five. Id like to work in Poland, notliving off the pitiful benefts that you lot got there (socjalne).

Cheers
Orpheus - | 114
5 Oct 2012 #53
Just out of interest, goofy, what are you studying, and what is the language medium of the course?
pawian 194 | 19,860
5 Oct 2012 #54
If you really want to know, after I finish my Uni in this country, and have some proper experience in my line of work I will probably go back

Nice promises but not too believable.

or maybe not... it really depends only on my job.

Already seeking excuses? :):):):)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
5 Oct 2012 #55
If you really want to know, after I finish my Uni in this country, and have some proper experience in my line of work I will probably go back... or maybe not

Let's face it, you probably won't. You'll have got your education in the UK, you'll have grown up there - Poland will be a foreign place to you, especially as you'll have no idea how things actually work here from an adult perspective.

For now, the Polish unemployment is really high, and I don't think that this trend will change in a year or five.

Depends what you do. IT guys are in huge demand at the moment, as are people who can use (properly) at least two foreign languages.
Harry
6 Oct 2012 #56
" notliving off the pitiful benefts that you lot got there (socjalne)."
Could you perhaps go into detail about the money we're getting from the Polish state? It's just that I'm pretty sure that I'm paying some seven thousand a month in taxes plus another 800 in ZUS and then 1400 in school fees. So if you could point out the cash I should claim, I'd be grateful.
rybnik 18 | 1,461
6 Oct 2012 #57
I'm paying some seven thousand a month in taxes

that sounds high.
4 eigner 2 | 831
6 Oct 2012 #58
I'm paying some seven thousand a month in taxes

damn Harry, that's 5k more than you're making, LOL

(kidding, peace no war ;-) )
Meathead 5 | 495
6 Oct 2012 #59
Communism was imposed on Poland. Stalin forbid his satellite states to accept Marshall aid.

Thats bullshit.

Surly you jest! Nobody can be that stupid, right? At least I hope so!

Here's my answer which I posted in another thread

Poland couldn't say no to Stalin and accept the Marshall Plan because there were a significant number of Poles who were communists. Poland wasn't of one mind. That's why a lot of Poles who fought in WWII couldn't return to Poland, they would have been killed...by Polish Communists. Like her: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danuta_Siedzik%C3%B3wna
peterweg 37 | 2,320
6 Oct 2012 #60
a significant number of Poles who were communists. Poland wasn't of one mind.

This is true, today about 4% vote communist. This group, numbering a few hundred thousand, were about to control Poland, with the ten million strong Soviet Union occupation army, killing any opposition for the twenty years after the war. After that, the message sunk in, minus a few minor uprisings.


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