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Poland's undying debt to Polonia


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Sep 2012  #1
–Material and moral support for Free Poland during the partitions
–Young PolAms joined Gen. Haller’s Army to fight for Poland’s freedom in and after WW1.
–Since the inception of the Polish Diaspora a steady stream of gift parcels and cash has been channelled back to the Old Country
–During WW2 Polonia redoubled its efforts and provided immeasurable assistance in the form of war relief via the Red Cross and all available channels.
–When Poland was a Soviet satellite, Polonia supported the Government in Exile and the Skarb Norodowy. Inr 1989, when Free Poladn was proclaimed, Polonia's Ryszard Kaczorowski, Polish exile president, offcially transferred authority to Lech Wałęsa, completely side-stepping and ignoring the pitiful episode known as PRL.

– Polonia upheld genuine Polish patriotic traditions banned by the puppet government in Poland – May 3rd, Soldiers Day and Independence Day.
—Polonia has created institutions such as American Częstochowa near Philadelphia to perpetuate the Polish people’s devotion and fidelity the Catholic faith.
– To Poles in their captive homeland Radio Free Europe, which enjoyed Polonia’s unquestioned support, had regularly beamed word of those celebrations and Polonia’s strong attachment to their true non-communist heritage.

–After Poland finally threw off the Soviet yoke, Polonia launched the biggest letter-writing campaign in history to lobby for Poland’s admission to NATO.
–Money continues to flow from Polonia to families in Poland.
–By overwhelmingly supporting PiS (70%), Polonians entitled to vote in Polish elections are setting an example for their misguided Old Country compatriots who have fallen for the lies, scams and cliques of tricky Don’s and his pals.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,486
11 Sep 2012  #2
Polonius

Everyone has some debt to someone these days. We all live in the age of enormous debt. The eurozone is endebted to the point that it may implode one day. The United States is hugely indebted to the People's Republic of China, but it's true, China keeps the list of the American debts in the same way as you keep the list of the debts of Poland to Polonia. But what can we say? Thank you, and with love from Poland minus the debt which the US incurred to Poland when hiring Kościuszko and Pulaski in their war against the horrible British who - as usual - tried to exploit the wonderful colonists of America as much as everyone else in the world in that sinful age.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
11 Sep 2012  #3
By overwhelmingly supporting PiS (70%), Polonians entitled to vote in Polish elections are setting an example for their misguided Old Country compatriots who have fallen for the lies, scams and cliques of tricky Don’s and his pals.

You mean the 70% who live in Poland, and know how the country ticks ?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Sep 2012  #4
They are the ones sending their American hard-earned cash so the gołodupcy of Tusklandia can keep body and soul together.
Peter_H 3 | 47
11 Sep 2012  #5
I'm not a Polonia basher. As I said in another thread I think emigrants can often, quite rightly see themselves as Polish, however comments like this

'By overwhelmingly supporting PiS (70%), Polonians entitled to vote in Polish elections are setting an example for their misguided Old Country compatriots who have fallen for the lies, scams and cliques of tricky Don’s and his pals.'

show how out of step emigrant enclaves can become with the values that Polish society as a whole now holds. There's a saying in Ireland that Irish Americans are more Irish than the Irish. It's both a compliment and a criticism. It acknowledges that emigrant communities are often strongholds for traditional Irish culture that many people in Ireland lament losing, but it is also a criticism, that the community is often focused on an idea or individual acts of irishness; irish dancing, trad music nights because the actual lives they live are no longer Irish. They are attached to an Ireland that once existed not the Ireland of today.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Sep 2012  #6
that Polish society as a whole NOW holds

Is the society of 'now' always right? We have seen how societies have let themselves be bamboozled into all kinds of things: the Thrid Reich, Stalinism , unbridled consumerism, environmental destruction, rat-racism, etc. Apparently those and other societies have been brainwashed into thinkintg and doing all kinds of things. That in itself does not make it wise, advisable or right. Sometimes the benefit of distance enables a diaspora to see the bigger picture which those immersed in daily in media res banalities can miss.
Peter_H 3 | 47
11 Sep 2012  #7
No, society of now is not always right, I agree, however I struggle to see how someone who lives outside the country could have a grasp on the issues that really affect Poles everyday.

If you don't live here I'm not sure you can understand what Polish people's opinions are on whether doctor's should be able to write their own prescriptions, how much Biedronka has hiked up the price of flour and whether the new train station was a waste of money. To understand these things you need to be listening to the people who live them everday, to talk to friends; hear conversations on the street and on the tram and be reading the news and watching the TV. You need all these things and more to really understand the pulse of the country.

Like in many countries, the majority of people care most about the issues that affect them everyday. I'm not sure emigrants have, can have a very good grasp of this.

Emigrants lecturing people who actually live in the country about what is the right or wrong government seems a little cheeky. These are the people who have to live with the government they elect and the decisions that they will then make. Emigrants, for the most part, don't.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
11 Sep 2012  #8
If I see how the average Pole (including our friends) are living and existing, you do not have a clue how this country lives and ticks.

Polonia...
You long for the time when in the Polish village the farmers farmed and bowed to the local aristocrat...Sponsored the local priest...Jews knew their place (and if they wanted to advance they got "corrected" ). The local landlord, together with the priest kept the ordinary people down.

Back to the real world in real-life Poland.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
11 Sep 2012  #9
Peter_H,I absolutely agree with you on that,I am from the U.S. and I want to learn about Poland,but I know I'll never get a true understanding unless I go to Poland.
Peter_H 3 | 47
11 Sep 2012  #10
P3 I think that's about the best attitude you can have.

There's a lot of negativity on this forum about Polonia and in general I don't agree with it. In fact, I agree with many of the points originally made by Polonius, but I think the final one is the sort of comment that helps those who dislike emigrants to write them off as out of touch.

You should definitely come to Poland. There is a lot to like here.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
3 Oct 2012  #11
–By overwhelmingly supporting PiS (70%), Polonians entitled to vote in Polish elections are setting an example for their misguided Old Country compatriots who have fallen for the lies, scams and cliques of tricky Don’s and his pals.

This arrogance makes me sick. Trying to say that people actually living real life in Poland are "misguided" while living thousands of miles away is - well - arrogant to say the least.

Why say this stuff, Polonius? The voting figures clearly show that PiS only won in the US and Canada - in every other single place in the world, they lost. What makes them better than the Polonia in the UK, for instance?

–Since the inception of the Polish Diaspora a steady stream of gift parcels and cash has been channelled back to the Old Country

Again - why should Poland feel thankful for this? America (of which the US Polonia are a part) betrayed Poland in WW2 - all the cash in the world can't make up for the fact that this betrayal happened.
pawian 159 | 9,515
3 Oct 2012  #12
-Money continues to flow from Polonia to families in Poland.

Yes! Most of your enumeration is really important contribution of what Am Poles did for the old country.

It is well described in the book Etos niepodległościowy Polonii amerykańskiej by Władysław Zachariasiewicz:

s

published in 2005, only in Polish so far.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etos_niepodleg%C5%82o%C5%9Bciowy_Polonii_ameryka%C5%84skiej

Ambassador Reiter's address focused on the independence that Poland enjoys today and how it was obtained over the long years of struggle: Some of the patriots fought with weapons and others waged a war of thoughts, ideas and words, each equal to his own ability and purpose. Both forms of the struggle were critically needed and mutually supportive of one another. He said that tonight's program was dedicated to the long, successful fight of the American Polonia and their brother Poles-in-exile, who sheltered here, for the independence of Poland today.

Wladyslaw (Walter) Zachariasiewicz took the podium and he spoke of his book that was being debuted this very evening: "Etos Niepodleglosciowy Polonii Amerykanskiej" ('The Independent Ethos of American Polonia'). It is a very insightful tome about the numerous and myriad Polish and Polish-American organizations that rallied in support of a partitioned-Poland, a fighting Poland, a defeated Poland, an enslaved Poland...and finally... a free Poland. They nurtured and grew the "Polish raison d'etre" here, especially when it was forbidden and persecuted in the oppressed homeland of Poland. And now, even as some of the first to organize are beginning to wane, the many Polish-American cultural and fraternal organizations proudly continue to carry the torch for Poland.


culture.polishsite.us/articles/art396fr.htm

-By overwhelmingly supporting PiS (70%), Polonians entitled to vote in Polish elections are setting an example for their misguided Old Country compatriots who have fallen for the lies, scams and cliques of tricky Don's and his pals.

The setting of an example was turned down by misguided guys for a while. Sorry. :):):):)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
3 Oct 2012  #13
and others waged a war of thoughts, ideas and words

The problem is that people are still fighting this war in their heads when the war is over.

Same problem in Poland, of course.
pawian 159 | 9,515
3 Oct 2012  #14
by Władysław Zachariasiewicz:

The author, Walter Zachariasiewicz, at 95, had the privilege of fighting for Poland on both fronts: With bullets and words. His personal contributions began with the September, 1939 invasion of Poland by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and have never ceased. Unable to return to communist dominated Poland after World War II ended in 1945, he emigrated to America and continued his labors and leadership for Poland's cause while establishing a new life in a free country. His accomplishments and successes were many. Along the way he received numerous awards, honors and decorations that include The Commander's Cross of the Order of St. Gregory the Great with Star, bestowed by Pope John Paul II, and the Commander's Cross with Star of the Order "Polonia Resttiuta" from the Third Polish Republic.

The problem is that people are still fighting this war in their heads when the war is over.

Drink a little wine and all fights will seem trivial to you. :):):):)
BBman - | 344
3 Oct 2012  #15
Again - why should Poland feel thankful for this? America (of which the US Polonia are a part) betrayed Poland in WW2 - all the cash in the world can't make up for the fact that this betrayal happened.

What about French and British promises to help Poland in 1939? Not that there was anything the limies could have done vs the Germans, but I just thought I had to say this.

Notice how all the polish pfers living in pOland don't ever say anything negative about the polonias help to their families who stayed in Poland.....

Always has to be the Brits stirring up trouble.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
3 Oct 2012  #16
Peter_H,I absolutely agree with you on that

Sorry P3 but:
1. you are wrong.
2. even If you weren't, as a moderator you shouldn't fall for the (senselessly expolited to death) argument of one side's of the conflict.

BTW Why don't you react to this garbage ?

Polonia...
You long for the time when in the Polish village the farmers farmed and bowed to the local aristocrat...Sponsored the local priest...Jews knew their place (and if they wanted to advance they got "corrected" ). The local landlord, together with the priest kept the ordinary people down.

This mad creature is offending millions of people, cliaming they are anti-semites etc.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
3 Oct 2012  #17
–By overwhelmingly supporting PiS (70%), Polonians entitled to vote in Polish elections are setting an example for their misguided Old Country compatriots who have fallen for the lies, scams and cliques of tricky Don’s and his pals.

Thet 70% was from the total of 40,000 votes, about 30,000 voters.

So 3% of Polonia, makes you a true Bolshevik doesn't it? trying to tell millions of Poles what they should do.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
3 Oct 2012  #18
How comes that 70% of the Polish electorate (middle-class, hard-working, driving their kids to school every day, visiting the National Museum in Warsaw, Dom Spotkań z Historią, decent people) are declared traitors. By some Nazist fringe which represents...nobody?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
3 Oct 2012  #19
Grzegorz,So your going to tell me that someone who is not from the same country has the same understanding of that country and grasps every aspect as well as someone who lives there?If that's the case then there's no point in discussing that one with you.I side with what I agree with I don't pay attention to how someone uses there belief.Just because I'm a moderator doesn't mean I can't agree or disagree with someone.I am a member as well and have the right,as you do to give my opinion thank you..Just because I may agree with some doesn't mean that I'll excuse foolish behavior.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
3 Oct 2012  #20
So 3% of Polonia, makes you a true Bolshevik doesn't it? trying to tell millions of Poles what they should do.

Worth pointing out that even in the USA, the Polonia weren't united -some areas of New York, Washington, California and some other places all voted for PO. It was only the massive vote in one or two areas of Chicago that tipped it firmly in the favour of PiS. So - trying to claim that the US Polonia 'know best' because they voted PiS is nonsense.

How comes that 70% of the Polish electorate (middle-class, hard-working, driving their kids to school every day, visiting the National Museum in Warsaw, Dom Spotkań z Historią, decent people) are declared traitors. By some Nazist fringe which represents...nobody?

Don't forget that many working class people vote PO too.
landora - | 199
3 Oct 2012  #21
–By overwhelmingly supporting PiS (70%), Polonians entitled to vote in Polish elections are setting an example for their misguided Old Country compatriots who have fallen for the lies, scams and cliques of tricky Don’s and his pals.

You know, I would ignore this nonsense, but this really made me mad.
How dare you? Get into your thick head, that who we vote for in Poland is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! You don't have to live with your choices, so get the f*** out and leave us alone.

As an afterthought - did it ever occur to you that American Polonia just MIGHT be wrong? Or are you too stuck up, you self-rightous twat?

They are the ones sending their American hard-earned cash so the gołodupcy of Tusklandia can keep body and soul together.

What cash? I never got a penny from any of you. Oh wait, that might be becuase my family doesn't come from a village?
pawian 159 | 9,515
3 Oct 2012  #22
You know, I would ignore this nonsense, but this really made me mad.How dare you? Get into your thick head, that who we vote for in Poland is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! You don't have to live with your choices, so get the f*** out and leave us alone.
As an afterthought - did it ever occur to you that American Polonia just MIGHT be wrong? Or are you too stuck up, you self-rightous twat?

Come on, drink some wine and relax.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
4 Oct 2012  #23
As an afterthought - did it ever occur to you that American Polonia just MIGHT be wrong?

I'll say it again. Only 30 thousand people voted of PiS, they don't represent American Polonia any more than they represent Poland.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
4 Oct 2012  #24
Only 30 thousand people voted of PiS, they don't represent American Polonia any more than they represent Poland.

In fact - it would seem that they are dramatically out of touch with even their own people, as from what I've read - the US Polonia tends to vote Democrat.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
4 Oct 2012  #25
Grzegorz,So your going to tell me that someone who is not from the same country has the same understanding of that country and grasps every aspect as well as someone who lives there?

There is no yes/no answear to that question, It depends on persons involved, discussed issue etc. Do you think a German expert on international relations by deafult know less about foreign policy of America than some average Joe from Nevada, just becasue he doesn't live in America ? Do you think I know less about US economy than Jose "no speak Americano" wash disher, who made it into Texas several months ago, just because he lives in the States ? Or maybe a Polish cleaner living in London has better understanding of British monarchy than British "expat" living in Poland ?

Besides, I am Polish and have been living in Poland nearly all of my life, don't you think I rather have a better understanding of this country than a British "expat", who's been living here since 4 years, is not fluent in Polish and has had no other job than teaching English ? Would you support me If I start to use this argument against "expats" ?

Since years, there are conflicts on this forum between people (mainly "expats" living in Poland) with liberal/"internationalistic" (of course until their country of orgin is criticized) views and those with more conservative/"nationalistic" approach (mainly Pol-Ams after most of Poles got fed up with it and left) and "you know **** becasue you don't live in Poland" is their latest offensive weapon, It's becoming almost as boring and irritating as the busia nonsense. If you still don't see it then I really don't know how to help you.

as from what I've read - the US Polonia tends to vote Democrat.

Ah... so after 200 posts full of nonsense about American Polonia being nationalists, racists, anti-semits and what's not, you finally discovered that they usually don't even vote the GOP ? Fascinating. Perhaps some apologies now ?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
4 Oct 2012  #26
Grzegorz,I have never commented on you and how much you know about Poland or called it in question.My comment was and is as it stands.You seem to have taken this to somehow having something to do with you;it doesn't.Some one who lives there;or has lived there all there life is more qualified than someone who has never lived there.This is all I've ever said and nothing to be read into it other than that.If someone who doesn't live here tries to tell me what makes my country tick,I can see how this could be annoying.I can see how you would be annoyed at someone who hasn't lived there all their life and wasn't born and raised there doing the same thing.It was just an observation.No more no less.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
4 Oct 2012  #27
P3undone,you are missing Grzegorz's point. He is pointing out the fact that an educated person that has studied a country's culture, history, government, etc. may actually be more informed regarding said country than some lesser educated people, even if the former isn't in said country and the latter are. You really should read his post more closely, it is quite well explained therein. You should also heed his admonition and stop fawning over presumptuous "experts" based merely upon their residency in Poland.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
4 Oct 2012  #28
Des Essientes,I understand exactly what he means.You can have all the book knowledge in the world and it is still not the same as being able to understand the nuances like someone who has lived there all their life or as well as someone who has lived there for however long compared to someone who has never even been there.I don't fawn over anyone,but I'll listen to someone who lives there before listening to someone who hasn't.
4 eigner 2 | 831
4 Oct 2012  #29
You can have all the book knowledge in the world and it is still not the same as being able to understand the nuances like someone who has lived there all their life

yep, very true
Harry
4 Oct 2012  #30
P3, why not come here and see for yourself? That way you'd not have to listen to any other opinion. If you could come (and I understand a lot of people can not), I'd be only to happy to help in whatever way I best can, even if that's just a daytime tour of Warsaw and an evening tour of Polish beers.


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