Time for Slavic Commonwealth around Poland as center

i`m not surprised. in time when civilizations clashes, Poles becoming aware what is in the game.

Crow, you're overestimating the awareness of Poland. For 98% of Poles, this is eye opening. Most experts who give lectures alongside Bartosiak don't understand or downplay him. And those are experts - nevermind politicians! Politicians believe in alliances, in NATO, in UE. They think US - which is a naval power without a meaningful land army - will ride in and save Poland. Even many US warships can't navigate the Baltic Sea. And if they could, according to him US needs Russia to take on China. US would be prepared to sacrifice a relatively insignificant country if it means their bombers can fly into China from northwest.

Bartosiak rightly points out that there is no "West" anymore, it's just a facade and everyone is caring only about his own business. UE is conflicted.

Bartosiak isn't even advocating a pan-slavic union, or an alliance with Grupa Wyszechradzka (Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia). He claims Czechs and Hungary are simply too far south to care about the threat of Russian expansion. Poland is on the crossroads between Europe and Asia, not Hungary. Hungary can afford to make deals with Putin, because they aren't facing a threat of invasion. Bartosiak says that from geopolitics point of view, Poland doesn't have common interests with Serbia, Slovakia, Czech Republic or Hungary. Instead, he suggests Ukraine, Belorus, Sweden, Germany, even Turkey. Yes, Sweden and Nordic/Scandinavian countries in general - notice that Sweden is much more open to joining NATO now that it feels threatened by Russia. And Poland shares the Baltic sea with Sweden, which does wonders for trade.

Sharing a language family with Russia/CCCP didn't stop them from attacking Slavic countries directly, or with NKWD. Coming from the same language family didn't make Poland especially friendly to Lithuania, Ukraine, Belorus, Russia, Czech Republic. Poland waged wars with every single last of them, and quite recently. Frankly, I don't know why you have so much sympathy for Poland - you wouldn't if the country bordered with Serbia. If you check statistics, you will see Poland is disliked by most of its neighbors. I wish it wasn't the case. Germany is, ironically, the friendliest now.

If you look at a map you will see south is the most inconvenient direction for Poland. East and West are easy, there are even rivers from Baltic to Black Sea for very cheap water transport. North is Baltic. Meanwhile those Tatra mountains on the south are only good as a natural barrier. Politicians mostly heard about Free City Gdańsk and how profitable water transport was in past ages. But they can't make a connection with European Union being eager to sponsor the E-40 waterway, Belorus and Ukraine falling over themselves to make a deal with Poland (effectively no one from Polish government attended last year, while Belorus and Ukraine had international experts). They have no clue about the upcoming Silk Road.

The Swedes have a term "Polish parliament" which describes a lot of noise and arguments and very little conclusions. Polish politicians are obsessed with two things: 1) getting taxpayers' money, 2) politicians.

Aside from 2-3 parties, only one of each came into Sejm this year, they don't talk abou things to do, only about names of other politicians.

Ah, yes. Lech Kaczyński spoke in defense of Sebia. That's your reason.

Then again, people may just ignore a great mind like Jacek Bartosiak because in one of interviews he says he has many friends in Israel. This suggests he's a Jew, and Poles are quite antisemitic. And Poles have been known to ignore other great minds like Jerzy Urban, who might be an immoral commie Jew (he calls himself worse things!), but has done Poland great service as an editor of the weekly paper "NIE". No other newspaper comes close in terms of the number of detected frauds, corruption schemes, and pedofiles in cassocks. Most people bash him mindlessly (especially on youtube), they don't even criticize what he says because they can't follow.

If that happens, Poland is more likely to try the oldschool, Jagiełło-style Intermarium. I doubt it would work. Alliances like that work for strong countries, and Poland is not currently an European power. What works for Germany wouldn't probably work for Poland. Lithuania, Belorus, Czech Republic have small armies and like it that way, they're scrared to do something that might offend Russia.

news Serbian, Belarus MoDs sign memorandum of understanding

Merged: What should Polish diaspora do after formation of Intermarium, come back to Poland or stay in emigration ?

Risk assimilation in diaspora or come back to Poland, the question is now.

You might as well ask what the Polish diaspora should do after the whole of Poland is transformed into a vast unicorn farm. Although that event is rather more likely, given that a number of Poles like unicorns, while virtually none have any wish to leave the EU which Poland does so well in and instead enter a pact with our more backward neighbours.

Even if i accept that discussion develop and have quite elastic stance on approach to topic, i can`t say that your comment was on topic, Harry. i just can`t. Anyway, i see that you exclude possibility that Poland form Intermarium within EU and thinks that Intermarium and EU exclude each other. Very well, at least on that i agree with you. i myself also thinks that when Poland form Intermarium, Poland goes out of EU. i also think that when newly Polish president Duda speak of Intermarium, he speaks of Poland`s abandoning of EU in the process. It for sure doesn`t mean antagonizing relations with western Europe but rather cooperation under new conditions.

That is all interesting but, it don`t answering to topic of this thread and that is - What should Polish diaspora do after formation of Intermarium, come back to Poland or stay in emigration ?

My opinion is that Polish diaspora needs to come back to Poland massively or evidently face complete assimilation in world that globalize and turning in world of clashing civilizations. Historical mission of Polish diaspora is to contribute to new Poland and Intermarium and, duty of Poland and Intermarium is to provide conditions, among else, for that.

The idea of Intermarium is interesting, but I just read an article stating that the project was... US-backed. Which makes me wonder.
I wonder if Americans support the project to, again, contain Russia on Europe eastern borders, or to divide and weaken Europeans even more.
Maybe both.

It is. Very. Its something deeply pro Polish and pro all who share common interests with Poles.


there is no `but`


idea of the Intermarium emerged from idea of Commonwealth around Poland. See, idea of commonwealth around Poland existed in human mind before God even got idea to create USA. Idea of Intermarium itself was well elaborated by Pilsudski. He nicely explained (let me paraphrase) how Intermarium needs to represent strategic aim of Poland in order to provide balance between Russia and western Europe.

Then, some people on the west of Europe said: ``Good, Intermarium would be good against Russia.`` We now live in time in which Russia giving all signals that have interest that Poland strengthen and form Intermarium. China maybe even more. So, maybe USA, too. Maybe Bantu and Zulu people also found their interest in creation of Intermarium. Maybe. They all are welcome to found.

Some powers and some people in the world would always be pro or against Intermarium. Most important thing is that is Intermarium good for Poles, for Hungarians, for Serbs, for Slovaks, Czechs. That is good and that is important. We who feel it as necessity for our way of life are important. Only that counts and rest interests are interests which don`t need to underestimated but rather balanced. Again, purpose of balancing those interests would be to preserve Intermarium, as it is necesity of those who need it most- people who live (would live) there. Purpose in balancing different interests isn `t to serve to foreign interests.


Nothing divide Europeans more then fact that few Europeans wants to dominate many others. In the process Slavs needs to extinct and that isn`t acceptable and that is why we need Intermarium.


maybe

Is there any Pole who still, after all signals of our time, feel that revival of Commonwealth isn`t priority for Poles and Poland?

Very very interesting comments

Piotr Sikora | Intermarium (English)

[moved from]

Irone brate, we Serbians would like to see long living and sustainable Intermarium. We don`t wish to depend neither from the Russia, neither from the western Europe, USA, China, Patriarch in Constantinople, Vatican, London or anyone. Sure, all would get their measure of respect but its the personal level.

We need Intermarium neutral on all global military alliances. We need fair business chances for all who wants to invest in countries of Intermarium. We need spirit of Intermarium. We need Intermarium`s dream, same way as American`s have American dream. We need strong Intermarium`s army.

The official language of Slavland must be either English or machine gun chatter because those are the only two languages in which Slavs communicate with each other.

i would suggest this solution for official languages within Intermarium:

* Polish and English as two equal official languages in whole of Intermarium
* In every country of Intermarium, side by side with Polish and English, you in addition have main official language of that specific country
* Also, on regional level, side by side with Polish, English and country`s official language, there should be, as fourth official language, language of national minority where that minority represent regional majority

We must have one Slavic language as primary official language in whole of Intermarium, because Slavic heritage stays as main cultural background of confederation. Not because somebody insist on that but because its reality.

Again, for the political Capital of Intermarium, i suggest Kracow. i know Serbians would be satisfied. They know that this way or another Belgrade must be financial center.

Crow, the holy leader of the Slaviban.

Will the doors of your intermarium be closed to such non-Slavs as Lithuanians, Hungarians, Albanians, Romanians (linguistically latinised Slavs) and Austrians?

Why? What possible rational reasons are there for such a move? It ranks at the bottom of the corruption index by Transparency International (even Bulgaria's a little better). The Czech Republic or Slovenia would be much better choices.

If that`s truth what you say, then venerable Kracow would be improved and shine in all its beauty as the Capital of Intermarium.

Reason why choosing Kracow? First, its very old Slavic and Polish city, with great history and tradition. Then, Kracow isn`t important only for Poles but also for the other Slavs, as great cultural center. Just to mention that remains of noble King Władysław Warneńczyk lie in Kracow and, He wasn`t just Polish but also King of many other Slavs, among them King of Serbians, too. Also, Poland would be largest country within Intermarium, so honor to give Capital to Intermarium, as for me, goes to Poland. Plus, having in mind Poland`s contribution to consolidation of idea of Intermarium. Not to mention, that Poles represent biggest ethnic group/people of the future Intermarium.

Which language is that?

Lusatian. That one goes for Lusatia until its final liberation. Lusatian Serbia in Intermarium!

Crow, you haven't replied to my quesiton wherther non-Slavs such as Lithuanians, Hungarians, Albanians, Romanians (linguistically latinised Slavs) and Austrians would be welcome in your hypothetical Intermarium!

hypothetical Intermarium? Hardly. Its necessity already.

Anyway, theoretically, Intermarium would be open for any country that you mentioned. Adding any of those countries wouldn`t change fact of Intermarium`s Slavic foundations. All today`s non-Slavic countries on the Balkan-Baltic-Black see Danubian line (in Europe and not only Europe, after all) are historically heavily influenced by Slavic culture.

Merged:

Poland don't behave as serious state and leading Slavic country

Believe me, time is right for thread like this, if we love Poland. That, considering sad Poland`s role within Visegrad Group, general isolation of country from most other eastern European countries and even, not-provoked, increasingly hostile stance of official Poland on some other Slavic countries.

If we add to it conflicts between official Poland and EU, some Polish misunderstandings with Vatican, on a first glance no matter all `pro at contra` reasons, one can hardly understand whats going on. So, there comes this thread to try to offer answers.

Anyway, its not serious approach and its not leading role.

And BDW, this thread isn`t critic on actual Poland`s ruling establishment. No, this failure started even earlier, with previous government and previous president. And now same trend continues. As if those who lead Poland previously and right now, agree only in one thing and that is - how to ruin Poland.

Hah, I refuse this merging of threads. We Serbians and Poles must start to talk openly about all this sh** that befall Poland. Trust me, talk can help

This part of the statement one can agree with :) At least recently.

Ha, somethings happening. Serbian media reported that official Poland`s delegation in UNESCO stubbornly refusing to give vote for Kosovo, no matter anti-Serbian stance and instructions from Warsaw. So over Serbs, Duda and Shydlo facing resistance within Poland. As I expected. Do you remember how previous Poland`s regime was facing resistance by Polish post service which refused to consider Kosovo as state and hijacked all letters mailed with addresses on Kosovo, sending them to Serbia.

And all this isn`t resistance of political opposition. Its deeper then that. Its movement. Resistance movement of those who wants serious, strong, Slavic, independent and leading Poland. I told you, `Serbian question` would reveal who is Polish patriot and who is traitor. Sarmatian connection is unbreakable. Its awakening. Its old role of Serbians in Polish history. First and last stand.

I thought Kosovo wasn't applying this year?? When did that change?

These days Shquiptars attempting again and increasingly lobbing. But, among others, venerable Polish delegates in UNESCO stand with Serbia.

Seams that Poland don`t lead processes connected to fusion of interests in Central Europe or in general in Europe`s regions that should encompass new Commonwealth/Intermarium. Center forming not around Poland but around Hungary and Serbia. We can only hope that Poland have some plan, tactics. If its not the case, we can expect more turbulence on Polish political scene, when Polish public increasingly starts to separate on block that gravitate to Brussels and on block that gravitate to Budapest/Belgrade.

Slavs? Even Steve Bannon says that ethno-nationalism is for losers.

Pawns? And pledging your loyalty to corporation is for winners?

Well, why does someone have to 'pledge your loyalty' to anything? Why the desperate need to 'belong'? Didn't mummy show you enough attention as a child? Didn't you have enough friends at school? Did the big boys not let you join their football team? Why so insecure? Pledging your loyalty to anything will only leave you disappointed and potentially manipulated by the people who control that group (i.e. who control you). Whatever group (or imagined group) you join will be made up of a variety of individuals across a wide spectrum - there are 'Slavs' that are like you (nationalist, narrow ideology) and on the same Warsaw tram you will find other 'Slavs' that are liberal, or gay, or internationalist, or globalist, or atheist, or communist, or anything else that you do not like. But by your ethno-nationalist definition they are equal 'Slavs' to you by virture of birth and origin. So it's pointless, and you are wasting your life looking for a tribe to join. Why not just relax, live your life as you want and let others live theirs as they want, and stop putting labels on people - most of all on yourself. I am sure that you are a multi-dimensional person with a wide range of likes, dislikes, loves, hates, things that give you pleasure, music and art, all specific to you. Maybe try to focus on that, instead of one-dimensional labels of illusionary tribes.

You are little bit crazy but, somewhat you are right. Belonging is sh**. Just, why do you telling that to me? Go complaint to western Europeans. I don`t know, try speaking to mormons.

In any case, let us don`t belong to Brussels. We who are Slavs (ie Sarmats) and non-Slavs but Slavic friendly, we who are Central Europeans, people from Baltic to Balkan, with all our mutual local differences and specifics, we are free to choose.

Well, I live in Brexit Land, and so I have first hand experience of where this 'soft nationalism' can lead to - it is harder nationalism, with associate economic suicide, centralisation of power in the hands of fewer politicians who are under greater influence of a smaller electoral base (so able to swung by extremsist), and so these politicians can get crazy and do crazy things that are destructive to the country and people, such as restricting the rights of your favoured Slavs. Nationalism divides societies, it doesn't unite them, because it depends on forcing people to 'choose' which flag to pledge their loyalty to. But people have many loyalties. In Brexitland, for example, people can feel Scottish, British and European simultaneously, those feelings can pull in the same direction or pull apart if other start redefining them. In 'Slavic' countries, what about those people who feel Polish AND European (EU)? Must they be forced to choose their identity, and create divisions between themselves and their German, Danish, Irish friends, colleagues, or lovers?

No, you concentrate on how you want to define yourself, and let others do the same. Don't try to tell them ("us" - you can't speak for "us", only for yourself) who they are. Many of them want to belong to the wider collection of nations nested within 'Brussels', maybe because they see it as an insurance against their own national politics getting too extreme, or as insurance against their neighbours invading them, or as mutual insurance against invasion from outside. You are you, you are not "us".