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Sarmatism in Poland


AdrianK9 6 | 369
3 Apr 2016 #91
Sarmatians existed (notably) from 50BC till 100/200AC. Problem:

You're right - it would've been probably before the migration and up to the migration. From what I read, Sarmatia was pretty much done by 200. The local tribes most likely mixed with the Sarmatians quite a bit. It appears that the Sarmatian culture was dominant but did have some characteristics of the already local East German tribes. I think that the tribes would've had a Sarmatian dominant culture though. During the migration period we see those people then get further mixed during the migration period, settling into city-states, and ultimately being united to form a nation in 966.

Yeah there is very very few records about the Veneti, Gepids, etc. Most of what he have is from Roman and Greek politicians and military leaders as well as academics like Ptolemy. The interesting thing though is that their religion is thought to be very similar to Greek and Roman mythology. Like the god of lightning would've been Perun, based on Zeus/Jupiter. We do have some pagan traditions and rituals in Poland though to this day - there is one particular popular one that involves making a female like effigy and drowning her in a river or settling her ablaze.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
3 Apr 2016 #92
Some recent DNA researches suggest people living in Poland 2000 years ago have much more in common with modern Poles than with any other nation...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,235
3 Apr 2016 #93
Indeed, scietific data show that some people who were killed during the enormous Bronze Age battle on the Tollense (slavic: Dołęża or Tolęża) river in Mecklemburg-Vorpommern in 1,250 BC had the same DNA as contemporary Poles (also the DNA of contempiorary Dutch and Southern Europeans was identified as well). More data of tghis discovery will be coming in future as this discovery was made only as recently as in the 1990s, so samples are still analysed.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
3 Apr 2016 #94
Some recent DNA researches suggest people living in Poland 2000 years ago have much more in common with modern Poles than with any other nation...

Indeed that would put all those speculation about Slavic late arrival on those lands in the file where all other failed theories belong.
Crow 146 | 9,106
3 Apr 2016 #95
Italian scientist Mario Alinei in his Paleolithic Continuity Theory consider Slavs to be European natives.

Actually, all Europeans are natives in the sense that all originate of one ancient people that in time immemorial settled in Europe (not only Europe). Now, that ancient people were not some unknown Into-Europeans but in fact Proto Slavs. They, Proto Slavs were those legendary Aryans and they gave birth to entire White race and Western world. Some Proto Slavs kept and preserved their original (naturally evolving) language and culture (modern day Slavs) and some, due to foreign influence (in zones where ancients bordered with foreigners, in some trade centers, in conquest and occupation by foreign invaders, etc), developed unique hybrid cultures and languages.
Suevi/Venethi
4 Apr 2016 #96
Did you read about bronze age battle at Tollense (sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle)? DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia.

Soon we should have results of aDNA analysis from Wielbark culture and Przeworsk culture people. First unpublished results suggest they were related to Balto-Slavs, and very different in comparison to modern West Germanic people. So-called Völkerwanderung promoted by German historians and archaeologists since the 18th-19th centuries AD is full of BS.

Over 100 years ago Wilhelm Bogusławski proposed these names in "Dzieje Słowiańszczyzny północno-zachodniej do połowy XIII w.":
Semnones -> Ziemianie (people of the earth)
Suevi -> Slavs
Lugi -> Lusatians (also Lechites?)
etc.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016 #97
Over 100 years ago Wilhelm Bogusławski proposed these names in "Dzieje Słowiańszczyzny północno-zachodniej do połowy XIII w.":

He is correct - those groups you mention are just some of the more than 20 groups that would've fallen under the 'Lechite' branch - modern day Slavic people that spoke similar languages and lived around Poland. Again, he's referring to 'do polowy 8 wieku' around the time of the Christianization of Poland. Mieszko I stated that he wished to unit the various Lechite groups - Lugii, Venti, Gepids, Rugii, Polans, Silesians, etc. If we're going by specific tribes and groups then yes, those would've been the people who dwelled in Poland around the 8th century. However, these tribes/small city states would've origined prior to the 8th century from a mix of Vandal/Goth/Norse/East German/Sarmatian mix - of course depending on area - the people near the Baltic like the Rugians would be more influenced by Norse/Goth than say Lugii which would've been more influenced by Vandals/Germans and possibly Sarmatians even.The Lusatians were way before this time (1000BC-500BC).

The Lugii have been identified by many modern historians as the same people as the Vandals, with whom they must certainly have been strongly linked during Roman times

Also, remember that sometimes names like Lugii or Vandals can be interchanged - depending on how specific we want to get. Herwig Wolfram:"In all likelihood the Lugians and the Vandals were one cultic community that lived in the same region of the Oder in Silesia, where it was first under Celtic and then under Germanic domination."



Suevi/Venethi
4 Apr 2016 #98
"The Lugii have been identified by many modern historians as the same people as the Vandals, with whom they must certainly have been strongly linked during Roman times." (as sources we have: Schutte, Wolfram, Anderson).

Read about Wolfram: jassa.org/?p=3488

As I can see your main source of information is Wikipedia, so here you go: "Poszczególne osoby narodowości polskiej są do siebie bardziej "genetycznie podobne" niż członkowie innych społeczeństw europejskich, w których występują niekiedy większe różnice między regionami."

Poles are one of the most genetically homogeneous nations.

So your theory about mixed Polish origin is simply wrong.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
4 Apr 2016 #99
Also,

Your map, those Vistulans were extended much more to the east that can be read on the map.
Suevi/Venethi
4 Apr 2016 #100
We don't know the exact location of various Lechitic tribes. Polans as a tribe are not recorded in any written sources until 11th-12th century.

Excerpts from "The Primary Chronicle" (ca.850-1110):
"Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians (...) the Radimichians and the Vyatichians sprang from the Lyakhs."
Ironside 50 | 10,907
4 Apr 2016 #101
Oh, for the 9th century we have a pretty good idea.
Suevi/Venethi
4 Apr 2016 #102
In the 9th century's Life of St. Methodius we have a "very powerful pagan prince, who lived on the Vistula, mocked Christians and did violence to them."

De Administrando Imperio (written between 948 and 952):
"The family of the proconsul and patrician Michael, son of Bouseboutzis, prince of the Zachlumi, came from the unbaptized who dwell on the river Visla and are called Litziki; and it settled on the river called Zachluma."
Ironside 50 | 10,907
4 Apr 2016 #103
Ever heard about archeology?
Suevi/Venethi
4 Apr 2016 #104
Gallus Anonymous lists a few more rulers before Mieszko: staropolska.pl/ang/middleages/Sec_prose/Gall.php3

By ca. 965 AD Mieszko's country was described as largest Slavic state by Abraham ben Jacob: "As for the country of Mieszko, it is the most extensive of their countries. It abounds in food and meat and honey and cultivated fields".
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016 #105
Actually more of it from here - historyfiles.co.uk/ yes some of the maps and quotes I got from Wiki....

Here is a complete history of Poland, the tribes, cultures, etc. that inhabited it from around the last ice age up to modernity

historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternPoland.htm#Lusatian


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