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What should Russia and Poland do to become if not friends, then at least not enemies?


Crow 137 | 7,520
20 Aug 2017  #31
What? I still contemplate.

What about uniting around Belgrade?
Ironside 47 | 9,622
20 Aug 2017  #32
In Russia, once they tried to change everything quickly, which led to the civil war of 1917,

No, as the matter of fact Russia didn't change at all because its damn becuracracy was fighting back. It rather pulled the country down than a give up control an inch. The same with Soviets, same story, Gorbachev came like 30 or 40 years too late to make a difference.

Putin is going in the same direction, it ain't s bad till he at the helm but whoever comes after him will be either do beorucracy biding or go die. The only hope that Russia will develop some strong social movement with a solid support o the large chunk of the populace. Some kids and few intellectuals won't do.

but somebody explain to me why in a civilized country like Poland, they are demolishing monuments to Russian soldiers?

Those are statuses of the Red Army - they were an enemy of Poland that attacked Poland on three occasion during the same 20th century. They made Poland into a soviet colony and their bayonets made it possible. Is that answer your question?

Cementers and places of burial of the red soldier are by and by left alone, In Russia proper their remains have been left on the fields as if they were animals. So, Why worry about statuses in a foreign country at all? Why not take care of the remains of your own fallen in your own county?

Cause it is used by Chekist Putin to play political games.

When Poles

He ask Poles maf. That is quite clear. So out of the curtesy you could say what you are, before voicing you views.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #33
@peterweg
Yeah.

Thats bullshit.

Very informative

@peterweg
...rabid population.

Are you Russophobe?
mafketis 19 | 7,009
20 Aug 2017  #34
So out of the curtesy you could say what you are, before voicing you views.

I wrote in the third person... Poles and Russians, them and them.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #35
@Ironside
Putin is going in the same direction, it ain't s bad till he at the helm but whoever comes after him will be either do beorucracy biding or go die.

You probably can predict the future)), have you ever been to Russia or do you just watch TV and believe everything that they say?
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #36
In the end it is necessary to come to something, put rockets and build an iron wall and spend the budget on armament or put forward the terms of an agreement on the normalization of relations, while it only gets worse
jon357 63 | 14,110
20 Aug 2017  #37
In the end it is necessary to come to something

The first step is Russia starting to behave, stop interfering in other countries, and introducing a functioning democracy and higher standards in business and public life.
Ironside 47 | 9,622
20 Aug 2017  #38
You probably can predict the future)),

I actually understand Russian, imagine that.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #39
@jon357
The first step is Russia starting to behave, stop interfering in other countries

I fully agree as with the fact that this should be a law for all countries, otherwise others will abuse it.

@jon357
introducing a functioning democracy and higher standards in business and public life.

The concept of democracy in ALL COUNTRIES of the world should not be interpreted in different ways, the rules are the same for everyone
jon357 63 | 14,110
20 Aug 2017  #40
this should be a law for all countries

Russia has lots of laws, even a constitution - they just abuse them. It's a whole change in culture that's needed, and this is much harder. Brave people like Pvssy Riot highlight this and get jailed, Politovskaya exposed corruption and Putin had her killed, about Navalny, he's also persecuted by the Putinists. Russia is too deeply mired in evil to change any time soon.

The concept of democracy in ALL COUNTRIES of the world should not be interpreted in different ways,

See above.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #41
@Ironside
I actually understand Russian, imagine that.

Which is good for you)
Would you like to visit Russia?
Crow 137 | 7,520
20 Aug 2017  #42
Romans did good job by introducing new religion to Sarmatian (ie Slavic) world. When Christianity split it went to the extreme in Serbian lands, in old core of Sarmatia. Two Churches agreed that one village had to be Catholic and the other Orthodox. Literally, it was like the skin of leopard. They control us.
mafketis 19 | 7,009
20 Aug 2017  #43
Brave people like Pvssy Riot

There is nothing brave about a bunch of bimbos being manipulated by a guy....
Crow 137 | 7,520
20 Aug 2017  #44
We Slavs would hardly escape extinction. Powerful magnates wants that we drop dead.
Ironside 47 | 9,622
20 Aug 2017  #45
Would you like to visit Russia?

Not particularly, I would like to visit the old border thought.

Brave people like Pvssy Riot highlight this and get jailed, Politovskaya exposed corruption and Putin had her killed, about Navalny

Don't mix P..Riot with there others. That is just not on.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #46
@jon357
Russia has lots of laws, even a constitution - they just abuse them. It's a whole change in culture that's needed

That's what I read about the "Russian" constitution
It is radically different from the U S Constitution

"Because in the 90s they wrote it in the U S.
Only now the U S State Department officially recognized that in 1993 the Constitution of the Russian Federation, as well as a number of key laws of our country, was written by America n advisers. No one then could have guessed what catastrophic consequences inevitably entail the inclusion of two fundamentally new provisions in the basic law of the state that was defeated in the "cold war": articles 13, paragraph 2, and 15, clause 4. 4. Only two articles of the America n version of the Constitution of the Russian Federation: The refusal of the Russian state to protect its traditional values ‚Äč and the recognition of the priority of international law over the domestic law."

@jon357
about Navalny, he's also persecuted by the Putinists

According to many norms of the U S Constitution, Navalny has long been in prison for more than 100 years
jon357 63 | 14,110
20 Aug 2017  #47
The 'traditional values' in Russia are at the heart of your problems, autocracy, corruption, state sanctioned murder, and above all, the kleptocrat Putin sits at the top of the whole rotten heap.

According to many norms of the U S Constitution, Navalny

Navalny is being persecuted by the Putinists, not by America.

And a huge stumbling block towards relations between a European country like Poland and the gangster state that is Russia, is Russia's illegal invasion of one of Poland's best friends, brave Ukraine.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #48
@jon357
Navalny is being persecuted by the Putinists, not by America.

For the actions that he did in Russia, in America he would be imprisoned for more than 100 years
I think so more clearly
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #49
@jon357
is Russia's illegal invasion of one of Poland's best friends, brave Ukraine.

There are different opinions
Translation from Polish newspaper "independenttrader" :

Ukraine - Who is the aggressor of Russia or NATO?

To understand the current events in Ukraine we have to go back a little in time. Since the end of the Second World War the world was divided into 2 hostile camps. On the one hand, we had the USA and Western Europe forming a joint trade bloc and NATO. On the other hand, we had the USSR.

1. After the disintegration of the Soviet Union in 1991, the former members of the Warsaw Pact (GDR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary) and Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia remained outside the direct influence of the newly formed Russian Federation and NATO. It was so called. Buffer zone. At the same time, with the military upheaval made by Yeltsin, the economy of Russia, the last state that could threaten the hegemony of the United States and NATO, was destroyed in the future.

Over the years, the "West" extended its influence to the former Baltic states and into the Warsaw Pact. After 8 years of economic agony Borys Yeltsin resigned his position and was temporarily appointed Vladimir Putin, who after the election was officially sworn in as president of the Russian Federation.

The first decade of the 21st century brought further expansion both NATO and the EU to the east. The only buffer between NATO and Russia was Belarus and Ukraine. It is worth recalling that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization was established as a defensive organization against the possible aggression of the USSR. Since the time of intervention in Serbia, NATO has turned into an offensive organization acting as an international police force outside of any UN control.

Over the last dozen or so years NATO has intervened in:

- Afghanistan - 13-year invasion, alleged search for bearded lord. For the insight I recommend to study the location of this country in relation to Russia and mineral richness. Interesting, which country produces 90% opiates and who benefits from it?

- Iraq - For 11 years NATO troops are looking for weapons of mass destruction there. Found only oil.

- Libya - we support fighters for freedom and it does not matter that 95% of these militants are from outside Libya. I wonder what happened to Gaddafi gold to be the basis of the golden dinars and who are currently earning oil since the bestial way was killed dictator with the support that the European authorities can only dream of.

- Mali - 90% of citizens, NATO countries are not able to show where this country is on the map. Still, our troops defend the regime from terrorists or freedom fighters (I'm confused by the terms).

- Syria - NATO's official mission does not lead but exclusively train fighters for freedom, the same against whom it fights in Afghanistan or Iraq

- I miss the interventions in Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan because they only participate in US troops without NATO support
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
20 Aug 2017  #50
Translation from Polish newspaper

That's not a newspaper, it's a very fringe Polish website that no-one has ever heard of.
Ironside 47 | 9,622
20 Aug 2017  #51
Poland's best friends, brave Ukraine.

That remain to be seen. However I don't like a fact that the current gov in Poland supports Ukraine unconditionally and what more sends billions of dollar into the fry feeding oligarchy.
jon357 63 | 14,110
20 Aug 2017  #52
There are different opinions

Not in Poland - there's near unanimity that Russia is a corrupt aggressor, a toxic autocracy presided over by the kleptocrat Putin.

No matter how many 'articles' from Putin sponsored sources you hope people will read can ever change that.

Next you'll be recommending 'Russia Today' as if it were reliable, or giving us the address to Putin's online troll factory.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #53
@jon357

Poland's best friends, brave Ukraine.

Tell me what are you joking about?



jon357 63 | 14,110
20 Aug 2017  #54
I think you know the situation. About Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine, including Crimea, about their murder of civilian airline passengers (not the first time Russia had done that - they seem to be making a habit of terror), and do, so many other very good reasons that Poland and the rest of the west should isolate the barbaric Putinists.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #55
@jon357 ...I think you know the situation

If you say that some of the best friends of Poland are Ukrainian Nazis, they are rather your friends than friends of the Poles

P.S.
Man on foto : The Ukrainian politician of the nationalist movement, the chairman of the VO "Svoboda" party and its faction in the Verkhovna Rada (Parlament) of Ukraine, the people's deputy of Ukraine.



OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #56
@jon357

About Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine, including Crimea

I do not want to engage in propaganda, but I want to know the truth and the opinion of all parties, to be honest, my opinion on Ukraine - they are all right and all are guilty, each in its own way
jon357 63 | 14,110
20 Aug 2017  #57
If you say that some of the best friends of Poland are Ukrainian Nazis,

Who said that? And who said that all citizens of brave Ukraine are 'nazis'? In fact most are very far from that.,,

As for your picture, anyone here can post pictures of extremists and gangsters in politics, people like the insane Zhirinovsky, or the toxic piece of excrement Putin.

I do not want to engage in propaganda

I might believe you eventually. Millions wouldn't.
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #58
And who said that all citizens of brave Ukraine are 'nazis'?

I did not say that everything, but did you see that in Russia or anywhere in the world in the government there were parties of the Nazis? Or in Ukraine did not rename the streets in honor of accomplices of the Nazis, who issues these resolutions?
OP trzy kola 1 | 39
20 Aug 2017  #59
@ jon357I might believe you eventually. Millions wouldn't.

But you are not a millions? Dont you?
jon357 63 | 14,110
20 Aug 2017  #60
I did not say that everything

Very good.

Now to look at the original question, how can Russia become closer to Poland and the rest of the Weat.

There are some basics so obvious that they aren't even for discussion, like the removal of Putin and his standing trial in The Hague, an immediate withdrawal from Ukraine, dismantling their political system, and the release of jailed opposition figures. These are however only the very basics.

I would propose substantial financial compensation for Poland to cover the depredations from partition until 1989, for the Katyn Crime, the deportations to Siberia and the wartime mass rape of civilian women by the Russian army as well as a release of every scrap of documentation concerning Russian espionage in Poland post-1989.

Without this, the status quo, antipathy from Poland (and the rest of free Europe) will certainly remain for many years.


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