The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 175

Modern myths and legends about communist past in Poland


mafketis 20 | 7,159
14 Aug 2019  #121
As I often say, Poland despite material inconveniences was generally one of the more... liberal and livable east bloc countries and only during martial law did the levels of repression approach the norm of East Germany or 1980s Romania.

But there's a cost to everything and the generally less repressive nature of communist Poland (compared to most neighboring countries at the time) meant that it was much harder to sort out the paper party members (who had to join and didn't really actively take part in repression) from the real evil bastards...

Vetting everyone would be exhaustive and expensive and excluding everyone who belonged to the party (and their circles) would have meant a much more difficult and lengthy transition...

The decision was made (for the sake of a peaceful transition) to let some bastards go... you can argue about whether that was the optimum choice but you should do so from the point of view (and only with the information available to) the people that made that decision in good faith.

It's easy for keyboard inspectors to sniff out soviet commie jewish conspiracies everywhere and dictate what should have happened with 20/20 hindsight and forget that what happened in 1989 was essentially a world first.... try negotiating out of a totalitarian system yourself before assuming the worst of all involved.
Ironside 48 | 9,694
16 Aug 2019  #122
Ha!

HA what? You haven't addressed anything properly just stuffed your post full of platitudes. Justice served to the guilty remind you of Soviet methods? so either you are stupid or insane.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,141
16 Aug 2019  #123
Germans didn`t and Egon Krenz, the last communist leader of East Germany, was tried and sentenced.

Since you mentioned East Germany, I read about Krenz and Honecker and was amazed how the latter had lost Gorbachev's support and been removed from power.

I also realized that I have even more respect for the communists, the USSR and, now, Russia, and so much less for the Western "democracies" for one gigantic and indisputable reason: The Communists of Eastern Europe and the USSR were actually capable of reforms for the better. F*cking amazing.

The West, on the other hand,...With a knife on their throats, ten seconds before having it slashed, they will still smile and ask for more.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,705
16 Aug 2019  #124
he Communists of Eastern Europe and the USSR were actually capable of reforms for the better.

No, they weren't...on the brink of failure they opened the jail door a tiny bit and people used it to run! (Or else they would still exist).

After '89 the West didn't need to reform, he just WON! :)

Today, well...during the last decades some developments happened, without checked by great social, economical and cultural rival, that make reforms now rather necessary...
gumishu 11 | 5,012
16 Aug 2019  #125
the people that made that decision in good faith.

it is your good faith that many of the poeple you talk about were let off the hook in good faith

I also presume you don't think Wałęsa was ever an SB confident
OP pawian 159 | 9,428
16 Aug 2019  #126
Yes, tell us when he was one. And what he did when he ceased to be one.
And remember - no lies. OK?
Miloslaw 6 | 1,991
16 Aug 2019  #127
The Communists of Eastern Europe and the USSR were actually capable of reforms for the better

I can't believe you posted that.......
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,141
16 Aug 2019  #128
Believe because it's true. Please show me where I was wrong on facts.
OP pawian 159 | 9,428
16 Aug 2019  #129
Can I try? :):)

You said:

The Communists of Eastern Europe and the USSR were actually capable of reforms for the better

Unfortunately, there were reforms but absolutely NOT for the better. Glasnost and perestroika reforms by Gorbachev led to the general collapse of the system in the Eastern block and eventually dismantling of the USSR. It can hardly be called for the better, unless you mean nations which had been subdued by communists and suddenly got a chance to regain/gain independence.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,141
16 Aug 2019  #130
In one simple sentence: The communist countries became more free after 1989 because of the internal pressure on the communists to give up power and reform. And give up they did. Even Honecker voted to remove himself from his position as the secretary of the party. No bullets, no blood, no Berlin wall - with Gorbachev saying " do what you want". Amazing.

The Western "democracies", on the other hand, are becoming less free and more 1984-ish. Their latest tool: one smelly migrant is offended, therefore, all of you have to shut up or face the judge.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,705
17 Aug 2019  #131
.....Even Honecker voted to remove himself from his position as the secretary of the party. No bullets, no blood, no Berlin wall

That's not quite correct!

The old men brigade in East-Berlin was fully willing to do it like the Chinese...to bring out the military to subdue their own people...they had no qualms whatsoever....it's just for that they NEEDED the nod plus military/logistical support from Moscow and it's troops in the GDR (as they have done 1953 and 1968) but this time Gorbatchov was smarter than that. During his last visit during the (as we now know) the last days of the GDR he said "Nyet" to any kind of further support ....and that was the end of it!

If it had been only Honeckers and Mielkes decision you would probably read today about "the massacre on the Alexanderplatz"....
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,141
17 Aug 2019  #132
During his last visit ....he said "Nyet" to any kind of further support

That's exactly my point. Gorbachev, the chief commie, was a reformer and had enough wisdom to politically decapitate the lesser ones like Honecker. There was a session in October of 1989 when somebody made a motion to remove Honecker. That day, Honecker voted with the majority to remove himself. No shots fired.

Do you know that the re-election rate in the US Congress is 96% vs the 99% in the communist countries? Unbelievable.

From Wikipedia:

After three hours the Politburo voted to remove Honecker. In accordance with longstanding practice, Honecker voted for his own removal.

Back to my point. Even communists were capable of seeing the light. The Western "democracies" are not.

Also, whatever damage the commies did, was the type that can be undone. The damage the Western demo-morons are inflicting on Europe and the US is not repairable.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,705
17 Aug 2019  #133
Most East-Germans know very well how much they have to thank Gorbatchov for...but in the same breath to pay your respect to Honecker and his ilk for what they didn't do is just wrong. They weren't reformer, they would had killed the protesters if they had could. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Gorbatschov was a historical stroke of luck, totally atypical for the system...the rest of the communist jailers still were the usual pestilence.

Even communists were capable of seeing the light. The Western "democracies" are not.

Well...the people had to wait for a Gorbatchow many years...in the meantime suffering either bloodthirsty madmen or bumbling idiots...without any means to remove them.

They lost the Cold War against western democracies for a reason! :)
Dougpol1 30 | 2,928
17 Aug 2019  #134
Wałęsa

People like you make me want to vomit. You mention Walesa in the same thread as Jarulzelski and Kisczak, yet pretend to be a patriot?
Vlad1234 14 | 570
17 Aug 2019  #135
Gorbatschov was a historical stroke of luck, totally atypical for the system...

There are still disputes whether Gorbachev did something against the system. Some people claim he just legalized de jure something that already existed de facto. Such as luxuries, private property, inherited privileges, etc... Or fulfilled dream of elite majority about such legalization.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,705
17 Aug 2019  #136
There are still disputes whether Gorbachev did something against the system.

Well, doing NOTHING to help the assorted Vasalles to subdue their people was surely not part of the system, that had been done before regularly. This "brotherly help" was an important component of the whole system...

To denounce that was enough to destroy the socialist empire and to free the people. The jail door without an armed jailer behind, able and willing to shoot, is not much of a hindrance anymore...so, THANK YOU! :)

Or fulfilled dream of elite majority about such legalization.

Which elite should that have been? The party sycophants? As you say, they got already what they wanted...
Vlad1234 14 | 570
17 Aug 2019  #137
Before Gorbachev it wasn't easy to possess luxury things openly, especially an imported once. There were few luxury foreign cars in entire country. After Gorbachev the elites privatized the factories and stores and started to ride Mercedes and BMW, go for vocation on Cannes, etc. Much more open, easy lifestyle.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,705
17 Aug 2019  #138
Well..that would mean that a bourgeois elite had developed already right under the communists nose....

Or more probable, that these two had been become interchangable. And that the patience has just worn thin with trotting out these old ideological mantras whereas the people only want to enjoy what the West offered, without being forced to play the party game...

The ideal of communism was officially dead, renounced even by its nominal followers!

I wonder where China is on this way right now...how long it will take there till communists become openly, officially and totally unashamed capitalists! :)
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Aug 2019  #139
Yes, tell us when he was one. And what he did when he ceased to be one.
And remember - no lies. OK?

read this pawian: niezalezna.pl/93236-tylko-u-nas-slawomir-cenckiewicz-obala-14-mitow-walesy - I have little hope you don't brush it off but since you wanted some sources here you go
Tacitus 2 | 835
17 Aug 2019  #140
Germans didn`t and Egon Krenz, the last communist leader of East Germany, was tried and sentenced.

To be fair, the Berlin Wall made it possible to convict him and others for homicide. If the Berlin Wall had not existed, it probably would have been much for diffficult to charge him and others with anything substantial. Election fraud maybe and some other offenses, but nothing to put them behind bars for years. The judges were extraordinarily lenient (and in many cases too lenient) in their judgements. Though we had some smart prosecutors who went to great lengths to assure that justice was done. Stasi-chief Miehlke was e.g. convicted for the murder of two police officers he commited in 1933. It also helped that we had with West Germany an outside actor that was not complicit in the GDR regime and thus could push for their prosecution. Just like Germany could not have held the Nuremberg trials in 1945, it would not have been possible to convict Krenz and others solely by East Germans.

Poland on the other hand was still the same country, and even excluding other considerations, it is easy to see why the leading communists were not prosecuted.
OP pawian 159 | 9,428
17 Aug 2019  #141
read this pawian: niezalezna

hahaha you are really incorrigible. In another thread I had to call you a liar and manipulator because of your sly method of running the debate.

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-scandals-conflicts-tensions-arguments-84933/2/#msg1701391

I see you are repeating the same tactics here. Do you really want me to call you a liar again? Are you a masochist? :):)

I didn`t ask you for sources, I asked you a simple question:

Yes, tell us when he was one. And what he did when he ceased to be one.

Can you in two sentences maximum give a simple answer to these two easy questions? Your own answer, without quoting anybody. I want to know what you really know and think.

PS. And don`t brush your lying face with Cenckiewicz. Be yourself or admit openly you are Cenckiewicz yourself, cause it seems he is your fav source, you have been mentioning him since 2011.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Aug 2019  #142
I didn`t ask you for sources, I asked you a simple question:

he most probably was a communist confident as soon as his time in the military and continued till the democratic Poland although at some point he probably played some game with the communists - however his political maneuver was heavily limited by the compromising material the communist secret services gatheren on him - this is my opinion - feel free to read the Cenckiewicz article though - sometimes it's good to face interesting questions about those you admire/follow/etc
OP pawian 159 | 9,428
17 Aug 2019  #143
he most probably was a communist confident

And communists happily allowed him to dismantle the system, especially in 1988 and 89.

however his political maneuver was heavily limited by the compromising material

What should Wałęsa have done if they didn`t have such hooks on him? What do you think?

feel free to read the Cenckiewicz article though sometimes it's good to face interesting questions about those you admire/follow/etc

I don`t admire Wałęsa or follow him. What I know though is that PiS, especially Kaczyński, hate Wałęsa for various things from the past, e..g, when he kicked Kaczyński twins out cause they started to play their own games behind his back. Today Jarosław Kaczynski wants to diminish Wałęsa and elevate his deceased brother as a leader of Solidarity in 1980s, which is pure nonsense.

Therefore I am not going to read any PiS` propaganda, cause you can`t deny that Cenckiewicz is one of major PiS propagandists. Please, don`t offer us any more from him cause it will be a wasted effort of yours. We have more interesting things to do than read bs from PiS.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Aug 2019  #144
Therefore I am not going to read any PiS` propaganda, cause you can`t deny that Cenckiewicz is one of major PiS propagandists

Cenckiewicz is a historian and he quotes a variety of sources in the article - I knew you wouldn't read the article but maybe some people who would like to learn a couple of facts about Wałęsa would
OP pawian 159 | 9,428
17 Aug 2019  #145
Never mind Cenckiewicz. For a while I thought we are talking off topic, yet now I see the opportunity to turn our dispute back onto the right track.

Today Jarosław Kaczynski wants to diminish Wałęsa and elevate his deceased brother as a leader of Solidarity in 1980s,

Yes, such steps have already been taken. Jarosław Kaczyński hates Wałęsa so much that he is ready to have his accolites spread lies about Wałęsa in order to promote Lech Kaczyński as a "true" leader of Solidarity in 1980s. It seems PiS are trying to abolish one legend and create a new one.

E..g, in 2016, J Kaczyński said openly and later wrote it in a book that it was his brother who actually led Solidarity.
fakt.pl/wydarzenia/polityka/jaroslaw-kaczynski-szokuje-moj-brat-kierowal-solidarnoscia/k8slzdc

In 2018, students in certain regions could participate in a school competition about the history of Solidarity organised by PiS politicians. The competion concerned only Lech Kaczyński and JPII. .

newsweek.pl/polska/spoleczenstwo/solidarnosc-bez-walesy-kaczynski-budowniczym-niepodleglosci-absurdalny-konkurs-dla/9mqk5h9

Of course, it is all nonsense. Lech Kaczyński was just a minor activist, one of many, there were hundreds like him. Making him a heroic leader is as stupid as Soviet propaganda in the past. And equally fruitless. Jarosław has probably realised it cause attempts of falsifying history have subsided.
Dougpol1 30 | 2,928
17 Aug 2019  #146
It's worse than that Pawian.
See the photoshopped picture of the Solidarity negeotiators at the Gdanskshipyard
Kaczynski's image is accentuated.
Walesa's is out of focus.
A dangerous re-writing of history, like the Soviets before them.
Ironside 48 | 9,694
17 Aug 2019  #147
Poland on [...] was still the same country, and even excluding other considerations, it is easy to see why the leading communists were not prosecuted.

Indeed. However presenting such a sorry state of affairs as a good thing or somewhat desirable is an entirety different story. It taking delusional to a new even higher degree. It is understandable why those who benefited from those rotten circumstances would like to justify it and paint a pretty picture whilst maintaining their unearned positions. Yet, I have difficulty to grasp how an average person can believe those lies. Its degrading.

See here:

I had to call you a liar and manipulator

Degrading to the point that person seemly otherwise intelligent and educated are acting irrationally. They look as if they were no longer a person but a one big fat joke - a caricature. Its self-inflicted - mostly.
Vlad1234 14 | 570
17 Aug 2019  #148
Well..that would mean that a bourgeois elite had developed already right under the communists nose....

Recently I saw a movie about Leonid Brezhnev and his colleagues and in this movie Leonid Brezhnev tells such a joke:
Some older relative (possibly a parent) came to visit Leonid in his residence and walking through large premises sees all the luxurious furniture, carpets and Bohemian glass. Then tells troubled:

"Leonid, and what are you going to do when the Communists will come to power?.."
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,705
17 Aug 2019  #149
Heh:) That's a good one! :)

But it's also misleading...that WAS the communists best shot...communism just isn't in human nature and will always end up twisted and perverted...

Better accept that as a fact and not try it again!
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,141
17 Aug 2019  #150
just isn't in human nature and will always end up twisted and perverted...

You couldn't be more wrong.
"Gimme what I need or want" is in the human nature. Why do you think socialism is now as popular in the US as Obama's free phones used to? Free college, free medical care, free internet - those are the precursors to free housing, food and everything else. Just don't tell the idiots that it will they who is going to pay for that utopia and you are in. Or tell them that the invoice will be due much much later.

Thus is how you get the votes - by appealing to the little commies in the morons' brainless heads.


Home / History / Modern myths and legends about communist past in Poland
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.