The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / Genealogy  % width posts: 8

Eastern Germanic migration the Iron Age Goths - do modern Poles have Gothic ancestry?


dnageneticsphd
5 Jan 2020 #1
Dear all,

Do you think that Poles have Gothic ancestry? Is there any evidence of that in the looks (because surely that is hard science am I right?)

My thread is on the one hand a response to this thread and some nonsensical post in it https://polishforums.com/genealogy/mongolian-golden-horde-poles-25558/ . In that thread I have actually sacrificed some of my time to patiently explain the science behind archaeo-genetics and what we know from international studies published on ancient and modern dna. I hope my replies will be read by the interested parties.

On the other hand, this thread may as well share some interesting research on the topic: There was a major article published in Nature in May 2019 entitled: "Goth migration induced changes in the matrilineal genetic structure of the central-east European population" by a team of international researchers, Scientific Reports volume 9, Article number: 6737 (2019). It is available for free to read, Link: nature.com/articles/s41598-019-43183-w
Ziemowit 12 | 3,671
5 Jan 2020 #2
It is available for free to read, Link: nature.com/articles/s41598-019-43183-w

Thank you for that link and this new thread. I stopped reading the thread you're pointing out to after seeing some nonsensical posts on Mongolian Horde ancestry in Polish people. Archeo-genetics is not that easy to understand as it seems to be for some crazy and haunted people on this forum. An excellent introductory book to all this archeo-populations genetics is David Reich's "Who We Are and How We Got Here". He describes the succesive waves of migrations into Europe in a fascinating way, supporting this with the outline of genetics methodes like e.g. the Four Population Test which are crucial for establishing who is who and where they come from. Unfortunately though, he has drawn up his European story of ancient migrations to the Yamnaya culture plus the originating from it Corded Ware culture. But this is enough to know that most of modern Europeans' ancestry (excluding the modern-day Sardinans) originates from the Eurasian steppes (the Golden Horde is of course not included here, however, as it arrived much later to Europe and was there for a very short period). Thps book is currently available on Amazon at half price.

David W. Anthony's "The Horse, the Wheel and Language. How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasians Steppes Shaped the Modern World" (2014) is more specific to the story of the ancient Europe, but since it was published much earlier (2007), it cannot contain the detailed archeo-genetic data which has been available only since 2012. I haven't read the book yet, but I know it concetrates mostly on the Proto-Indo-Europeans (Yamnaya and Corded Ware) arriving and settling in Europe.
Lyzko 24 | 7,110
5 Jan 2020 #3
One can though definitely trace Celtic influence in Poland.
OP dnageneticsphd
6 Jan 2020 #4
@Lyzko

Please watch the online lecture by Dr Johannes Krause that I have posted specifically for your benefit in the other thread as it is great at explaining the various metapopulations that you descend from.

Also one crucial point: you do realize that just because a woman was impregnated during a raid does not mean she actually 1) gave birth to that offspring and 2) actually invested resources in bringing that offspring up to then 3) further reproduce? A political, social and economic entity has to be there. For example, the Vikings were not able to make any significant genetic impact on France despite of frequent raids until the Duchy of Normandy and the right infrastructure was created for this purpose and they actually Latinized themselves into the French culture and became the Normans. Basically forms of abortion were always around. Of course on top of that no man would provide resources for the invader's child as well.

One last chart to have a look at: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png Please consider that this amount of East Eurasian is so small that it can even be attributed to statistical "noise" error. For example, when we first discovered the metapopulation of Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) which all Europeans have quite a significant contribution from, especially in North-East, the PCA deducted that this population was significantly Native American. This of course wasn't the case, but instead ANE was the metapopulation for both the Steppe Pastoralists that entered Europe in the Bronze Age and 1/3 of total Native American ancestral source.

@Ziemowit indeed David Reich is great. One of my friends does his own lab work with the datasets that his lab has published, you can download thousands of samples directly from his lab. This is a new lecture uploaded by Harvard youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8sZvozKtE "A Tale of Two Subcontinents: The Parallel Prehistories of Europe and South Asia". Particular linguistic and genetic relatedness between the various Iranian and Indian groups and Baltic-Slavonic groups is being discussed as well.

David Anthony also makes a very important contribution in Archaeology. I like the fact that Lord Renfew himself had no problem in acknowledging that his Anatolian Hypothesis is not backed by the same amount of Genetic evidence as the Kurgan one and now himself supports the latter hypothesis; that is mark of a true scholar that accepts new evidence and is always willing to revise the hypotheses in the light of new evidence.
Lyzko 24 | 7,110
6 Jan 2020 #5
That I descend from?
If you're referring to the Northmen and their neighbors, I must disappoint you.
Crow 137 | 7,857
10 Jan 2020 #6
Do you think that Poles have Gothic ancestry?

Please don`t BS, dear friend. Germans themselves are Serbs. Were Serbs. Some Serbs. Some still are, they shall find soon.
Lyzko 24 | 7,110
10 Jan 2020 #7
Indeed, the Poles have considerable German influence. After all, they are both neighbors:-)
Crow 137 | 7,857
10 Jan 2020 #8
You giving that to him, Lyz? Why do you show mercy on that @dnageneticsphd when he is crazy like a rat and provoke Poles? Spank him with truth in the face or let ME do it properly.

One can though definitely trace Celtic influence in Poland.

Celts = Sarmats.


Home / Genealogy / Eastern Germanic migration the Iron Age Goths - do modern Poles have Gothic ancestry?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.