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Modern myths and legends about communist past in Poland


Ziemowit 12 | 3,618
12 Aug 2019  #91
communist Poland was great place to grow up and I would not trade it for anything.

Ha ha ha. If so, then ask RM why he left communist Poland for America in the 1960s, if communist Poland was such a great place to grow.
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
12 Aug 2019  #92
When we were young everything was better:):)
Poland hasn't changed that much. I still cycle and put up the tent anywhere I want.
A couple of times the landowners came along, and were quite amiable when they realised I was following all the conventions.
Those rangers in the Tatry are a different story....
mafketis 20 | 7,341
12 Aug 2019  #93
communist Poland was such a great place to grow.

I've heard that before... the PRL was often a fun place for the children of families who were not subject to extreme poverty or targeted for political reasons. Back in the US I knew an American (non-Polish) guy who lived in the PRL for a couple of years with his family (I forget what they were doing) around age 10 and he said it was much more fun than in the US at the same time...

It was more in the late teens when the less... entertaining aspects of the PRL came to the fore
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
12 Aug 2019  #94
You are talking nonsense.

No, you, as an expat who left Poland many years ago, talk nonsense because you know nothing about Poles and this country. I said that together with Jaruzelski you should also shoot 18 million people who excuse Jaruzelski`s acts, e.g, martial law.

The poll results have been the same for many years: half Poles claim martial law was justified.

newsweek.pl/polska/sondaz-stan-wojenny-z-poparciem-wiekszosci-polakow/40q6ldq

Another myth about communism breaks down: it isn`t true that most people opposed the system, and only a few wretched guys worked in communist forces which oppressed the nation.

As you can see, it only looks so simple from a foreign perspective, but for people directly involved - Poles - it isn`t.

I've told the forum the story

Sorry, I forgot.

However, the only way to execute Jaruzelski was to have a blood bath like in Romania. Did you really want that? If Poles had had a civil war, today you would critizise them and accuse of barbarism. You would present England as an example to follow:Look, we civilised English waged the last civil war in 17 th century and later we have had democracy. I know you. :):) Do you really imagine your wife or father in law taking their revenge on those communists who had wronged them? How would they have done it? At their homes? With axes? Knives? Throwing through windows? or public hanging on street lamps and trees?

BTW, don`t mention Romanian revolution as an example for Poles because it was a coup de etat organised by Ceacescu`s closest mates from communist government - they wanted to abolish the hardliners and keep mild communism. Today, the guys who had him courtmartialled and executed in 1989, are prospering as wealthy businessmen, owners, etc.
mafketis 20 | 7,341
12 Aug 2019  #95
he guys who had him courtmartialled and executed in 1989, are prospering as wealthy businessmen, owner

I often had the idea that when PiS was talking about Poland it was really talking about Romania - the scenario they described was certainly closer to Romania (or Ukraine) than anything going on in Poland.

I think the Romanian movie "A fost sau n-a fost" (given the terrible title 12.08 East of Bucharest in other countries) is one of the definitive films on the post-communism era in Eastern Europe, a bit slow and confusing in the beginning but the TV discussion that dominates the second half is just amazing...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12:08_East_of_Bucharest
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
12 Aug 2019  #96
As boy I could walk across town in the middle of the night and not have to worry about sexual predators and other sickos.

Thank you for offering us another myth of communist times.

Why do people still believe there were no sickos, perverts and pedophiles in communist countries? Because communist censorship didn`t allow to publish such news not to worry the society. As Młynarski once sang in his allusive song: Why should we worry granny, let her enjoy life....

But I remember two nasty events from my elementary school when pedophiles came to the toilet and pretended to be doctors who needed to examine girls. And they fekking did. It was older students who notified teachers and I witnessed how those guys were virtually pulled out by their ears by one strict female teacher. We didn`t like her because she used to scream at us, but as a school police she was just great. Two cases which happened within a year, as far as I remember.

Do you think it was on the evening news or in papers next day? Of course not.
mafketis 20 | 7,341
12 Aug 2019  #97
no sickos, perverts and pedophiles in communist countries? Because communist censorship didn`t allow to publish

I read a book on the "Vampire from Zagłębia" (by Przemysław Semczuk) one of the interesting takeaways is just how many crazy homicide and/or serial murderer cases there were going on in Katowice at that time... a bunch of non-related cases were ascribed to the vampire because that was apparently less scary than the reality... the most disturbing was the 'lord of the flies' case... yechhh

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zdzis%C5%82aw_Marchwicki
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
12 Aug 2019  #98
the only way to execute Jaruzelski

Really when I say "shot...." I mean he was exiled, but then rehabilitated. Why? Of course the country is split 50/50, as most countries were - but we are not talking about a Margaret Thatcher, and miners hating her policies. This (Martial Law) was abject humiliation for many, and harassment and worse for many thousands of others. Many millions said "Let the Russians come - then we can see the enemy, and it couldn't get any worse...". Instead he betrayed them. Lets not forget he was the generalissmo - and that's the person who falls. If the mob had got hold of him he would have ended the same way as Gadaffi - and that's just the way of it.
Lenka 3 | 1,560
12 Aug 2019  #99
Yyyy, oh yeah, that sounds great...Not.
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
12 Aug 2019  #100
ne of the interesting takeaways is just how many crazy homicide and/or serial murderer cases there were going on in Katowice at that time.

The news about the first victims of serial killers never appeared in the communist media, not until local people started getting scared shytless and spreading rumours which were even more horrifying than the truth. Then the communists usually lifted the censorship ban (but only for the local area) cause people knew anyway and sweeping the things under the carpet would only turn against them.

That is why certain people still believe today that a communist country was safe for little kids and women. No news, no problem. How simple.

As Młynarski once sang in his allusive song: Why should we worry granny, let her enjoy life....

The song about granny who wants to learn how the family prospers and they lie to her, hiding worrying truth about the members who either committed suicide, had an accident or landed behind bars.

youtu.be/0RoESGVCMzk
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
12 Aug 2019  #101
If the mob had got hold of him he would have ended the same way as Gadaffi - and that's just the way of it.

No, come on. Don`t make Poles such bloody mob murderers. What is your fekking intention? The only incident when Jaruzelski paid for his deeds was when he was signing books in the bookshop. A very old man who had been gravely persecuted by communists, came and hit Jaruzelski with a stone in the face. It happened in 1994.

read about the desperate man.
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Helski
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
12 Aug 2019  #102
A very old man who had been gravely persecuted by communists, came and hit Jaruzelski with a stone in the face. It happened in 1994.

I meant that in the 80s the rioters would have got him. As Bob Marley said:
"A hungry mob is an angry mob."
Ironside 48 | 9,796
13 Aug 2019  #103
I said that together with Jaruzelski you should also shoot 18 million people

Yes, it is a pure nonsense. Key figures should be hanged and some shot, most should be just kicked out. Hey Soviets' kicked out in 1980 around a million people capable of doing just that.

I don't even deem to talk about your or that rag claim that all the people were supporting Jauzelski's war on the nation.
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
13 Aug 2019  #104
And who and where said this? Show us the source, Mr Expat Expert. :)

Key figures should be hanged and some shot,

Poles decided differently. Accept their choice and live with it. You have nothing to do with Poland anymore.
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
13 Aug 2019  #105
it isn`t true that most people opposed the system

Absolute nonsense. Maybe in the Gierek early years people were buying into the lie, after the Gomulka politbureau regime. Suddenly people could travel, and children were guaranteed two state paid holidays a year.

Nobody understood what it really entailed though when Gierek said that "some loans were taken" and within 8 years the social experiment had failed. After that, with default on repayments, things pretty soon turmed horrendous.

Forever after, and before Gierek, the huge huge majority of Poles wouild have fought the system on the streets given the means to do so. Your assertion that people backed communism is ridiculous. There was the 3 million who took the party card...and...?

Nobody knows how many died in the immediate days following Martial Law through the breakdown in order, through no communication, food distribution, lack of access to healthcare, and travel bans, which meant families were unable to help their loved ones.

Jarulzelski is a traitor - no doubt in my mind. He could have appeared on televison, and said "Ludzi - the Soviets have ordered me to reign in Solidarnoscz\ and the new freedoms - otherwise.......but I have told them that if they invade, we will fight".

Instead , he colloborated with the Soviets, without the will of the people.
Forever scum. As told by Mrs Dougpol.
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
13 Aug 2019  #106
Your assertion that people backed communism is ridiculous.

Hmm, similarly to my latest reply to Iron, I have to repeat the same procedure for you: namely, where exactly did I say this? :):) Show us the source....

communist Poland was great place to grow up

No, it wasn`t. I couldn`t buy my fav comic books (which I adored at the time) because they had been always sold out before I ran to the bookshop or newsagent`s. Disappointed, I became an anticommunist at the age of about 10. :):)

spent more time socially

Because there weren`t too many other diversions so people visited each other and drank. Simple.

I got great education for free thru Liceum and almost made it to top level university before "things" came u

It is also happening today in capitalism - education is free, even the quality one.

Communist police did "take care" of questionable characters pretty quickly.

Not really, Petty hoodlums could beat people in streets for nothing and do even worse things but the communist police was helpless. Have you ever heard of gitowcy?

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gitowcy

to go fishing in country side.. public lakes ..

Most lakes are still public, it hasn`t changed. As well as the forests.
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
13 Aug 2019  #107
No, it wasn`t.

All through the 80s, after Martial Law, it was shocking, what with the inflation and general intimidation. A step back to the 60s I would imagine. I didn't know Poland in the 70s, but wifey says it was somewhat better under Gierek for a time. with the slogan of "lets help each other", and maybe that is what our friend is referring to.

He's full of it of course. It was alright for people like him and me. We could get on a plane after 2 weeks and go home to modern civilisation and freedom.

Petty hoodlums could beat people in streets

In Martial Law nobody knew if their families would come home from work or not. The MIL worked in public admin in Sosnowiec and was active in Solidarity. The police smashed up the place and took 2 of her workmates away, and returned them with bruises all over their bodies.

where exactly did I say this?

I thought you said communism had 18 million supporters...?
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
13 Aug 2019  #108
No, I said it about old polls in which people were asked what they think of general Jaruzelski`s martial law - half declared understanding for his decision. It is really a problem you can`t read it in Polish fluently cause such articles are only in Polish. :)
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
13 Aug 2019  #109
That would be 18 million people who were somehow involved in making communism go round for so many years.

I took that to mean active or passive supporters. You also referred to 30 percent of the population, in another paragraph, as being pro-communist. Care to back up those statistics?
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
13 Aug 2019  #110
You also referred to 30 percent of the population, in another paragraph, as being pro-communist. Care to back up those statistics?

I remember those statistics from the stuff I read after the collapse of the system. It is unavailable on the net today.

about 30% Poles who consciously supported the system, either as ordinary party members or members of militia, army officers, company directors etc etc. .

I can add: count in their familes, too. Besides, when I recall my schools, 30% is a good calculation - that was the percent of teachers who openly encouraged or forced us to appreciate communism as the best system possible.

Do you really think that communism would have lasted one week if some Poles hadn`t defended it with full conviction? Soviets withdrew their direct rule in 1956. Since that time, it was Polish communists and their Polish henchmen and stooges who made the system go round till 1989.
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
13 Aug 2019  #111
30% is a good calculation

Truly shocking if true, and shows the power of nepotism and brainwashing. One could "understand" the initial allure of National socialism from the uneducated German's point of view - but communism, for a country ruined by war? Nah. Stupid beyond words.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,328
13 Aug 2019  #112
Yes, but Poles had no other choice.
Accept the system and live as best you can was all that was on offer...... or Siberia.
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
13 Aug 2019  #113
but communism, for a country ruined by war? Nah. Stupid beyond words.

Actually, I read today`s experts`opinions which proved communism was the best system for rebuilding the country after the war. Capitalism would have been useless. Besides, don`t forget millions of peasants who received land from landlords` confiscated property. Do you think they supported capitalism and the return of landlords? :)

read about agricultural reform
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforma_rolna_w_Polsce_(1944)
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
13 Aug 2019  #114
You also referred to 30 percent of the population, in another paragraph, as being pro-communist. Care to back up those statistics?

Ok, a final fact. Do you remember which party won the elections in 1993, 4 years after the collapse of the system? Yes, leftist.

And what was the political stance of the President who defeated Wałęsa in 1995? Yes, leftist.

What was the grafitti scribbled on walls at the time? Commies, come back .

Truly shocking if true, and shows the power of nepotism and brainwashing.

Exactly. But that was reality and we can`t change it. Yes, many Poles had been brainwashed but Miłosław said wisely: they had no choice.

Yes, but Poles had no other choice.

So, Doug, don`t be too harsh on them, then.



Ironside 48 | 9,796
14 Aug 2019  #115
The poll results have been the same for many years:

So what? Poll result after the fact and years of propaganda has no meaning. Why would you even bring it up? To support your view? Have you not guts to say openly what you think? phew!

hat most people opposed the system,

Soviets' kicked out million of those who were capable of taking them out. In the 80' and then staged a transformation with their puppets pretending to represent the nation.

Poles decided differently.

They never has been given a choice in that matter.
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
14 Aug 2019  #116
Poll result after the fact and years of propaganda has no meaning.

Do you suggest they should hold polls before the event?

They never has been given a choice in that matter.

Actually, they were. The transition from communism to capitalism was peaceful - communists slowly released their grip and Solidarity was taking over. There was no need to shoot anybody.

However, would shooting Jaruzelski and his closest mates change anything? Would today`s rulers, PiS, learn anything from the lesson and not undertake their trecherous actions in fear of being tried for treason one day? I doubt it - they would be the same Kremlin`s puppets and traitors of Poland as they are now. .
Dougpol1 30 | 3,071
14 Aug 2019  #117
would shooting Jaruzelski and his closest mates change anything?

They (Jaruzelski and Kisczak) should have served jail time and been publicly disgraced. I don't remember the East Germans or Czechs brushing everything under the carpet, but then again, they did have something (the Poles) to model their transition on.
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
14 Aug 2019  #118
They (Jaruzelski and Kisczak) should have served jail time and been publicly disgraced.

Now, that`s better and more humane. I agree.

I don't remember the East Germans or Czechs brushing everything under the carpet

Czech brushed things under the carpet, Germans didn`t and Egon Krenz, the last communist leader of East Germany, was tried and sentenced.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
14 Aug 2019  #119
Actually, they were.

Sure, whatever...I never noticed, hell I was a kid but my father never noticed...some faces everywhere. You're a tool and Soviet apologist.

As for hanging there was all the need. Lest say no capital punishment, what about kicking them out of offices, universities, prominent key positions, what about prison sentences for those with the blood on their hands? No? Why the hell not?

There is only one explanation - Polish people didn't take over. Kremlin puppets in Soviet Poland did. They and their progeny are doing great, Poland not so much.

Is that the reason you're defending Soviets'?

What you yapping about PiS? you excused Soviets' with the blood on their hands, traitors and thieves, and yet you have problem with PIS? You're a joke.
OP pawian 161 | 9,970
14 Aug 2019  #120
Lest say no capital punishment, what about kicking them out of offices,

Just like Doug, you are becoming more and more humane in each next post. So no more shooting or hanging, just prison or kicking out. Good. It`s a great improvement and I am glad both of you have come back to a civilised level of reasoning after our exchange.

With that sudden but positive twist of your opinion which initially was so drastically radical that it reminded Soviet methods itself and that is why I was against it, I think we can call the case closed.

Ha!


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