Poland: Her heroes and her traitors

Maybe yes, maybe not... I don't believe in any propaganda. If you want to discuss about Polish history, we can go for the beer and talk. I'm "an expert" in Festung Breslau :)

hehe good job - rather a big push from media - remember those who want to create a political movement in Poland and don't have a support of the TV's just won't make it - and if you think Palikot and his bunch are anti-establishment then think again

Yes... it's funny... I'm still contradicting mysefl... hehe. Forum is for everyone, for people who want to discuss about politics and for those who want to force their arguments by an agressive methods. I respect it, of course. You are the next person today who wants to judge me :) 7AM is comming, probably time for us both...

Exactly! :):):)
I am turning in now! :):):)

I'm not a fan of Palikot, but I must say that he is the bigger winner of this election, isn't he ?

That's normal that Palikot didn't do it himself, that was a big work of media, it's true. But he was so controversial and visible that any TV stations want him to show. I don't care about his intentions, he will change nothing in Poland, but there will be more funny than before...

i'm not into funniness in politics - well actually politicians could have a sense of humour but I'm not the fan of Mr Palikot's sense of humour

btw you were supposed to go to bed, pal - I don't need to get up early - you do - good night then

Palikot needs to be funny, because he can't do anything constructive... look on his team... can they create anything serious ?:) Only chaos and muddle :) It's democracy... - the system where 2 lushes can vote down one University professor :) hehe

You mean you are loyal to whomever is in charge in Poland.


What then you are loyal to ?land, trees, landscape, people ?
loyal to the country is too general ...


To clarify: in the time of partitions to what or whom you would be loyal to ?

No.


To my nationality.


To Poland.

Please ask for these questions also, I would like to know something about you.

Whats that ?
What do you mean by - loyal to my nationality. Whats that mean ?


Poland didn't existed at the time.
So, my question still stand.


huh ? Ask away !

Loyal to other Poles and to Poland, for our roots, for our tradition, that's all.


I have never been in the situation when Poland didn't exist formally. Probably I would fight with occupants. You must know one thing... for Poles Poland will exists everytime, doesn't matter if some aggressor occupies Poland...


Ask for your questions which you asked me.

you are giving flippant answers, your claims here and your answers do not add up.
You lack consistency, either you are a kid playing games on PF or you are pretending to be somebody else that you are, and I do mean moniker here.

no matter")


What would you do in that case?Support collaborators in a government because their are Polish ?


I Don't understand what you are saying here.
If you want to ask me some questions - ask away !

That's your opinion. Maybe would be better if you write what do you expect from me...


Don't suggest the answer in your question, it's rude and aggressive. I won't ever colaborate with people which are against Poland...


in the time of partitions to what or whom you would be loyal to ?

Are you Polish ?

I don't know, too many unknowns.


yep

Whenever I think of Polish heroes I think of the likes of Bear Cub, Nil and Novak. Their deeds, and particularly the silence under torture of the former 2, hold them high as paragons of virtue and selflessness. If I could have but 100th of the honour contained in the little finger of 1 of them I would be satisfied.

I think Davies described Bear Cub as a knight without peer or reproach, and that is true.

When in Warsaw a few years ago, we went to the park to see the statue of general Sowiński and the redoubt he defended.

The remains of Wola entrenchment defended by general Sowiński.

General Sowiński, a heroic general with one leg who died while defending Warsaw against Russians during November Uprising in 1830.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Sowi%C5%84ski

Józef Sowiński (1777--1831) was a Polish artillery general and one of the heroes of Poland's November 1830 Uprising.


mission.net/poland/warsaw/literature/poems/sowinski.htm





Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. I envy general Sowiński his beautiful death.

I've just been reading about Prince Roman Sanguszko, the Prince who walked to his exile to Siberia in the 19th Century. I think he's an heroic figure.

It will be the first Polish historical person of double nature in this thread: by some considered a hero, by others a traitor.

Who do I mean?

That description could fit quite a few people, not least in modern history. Views, however, are sharply divided about Stanislaw August Poniatowski.

Sorry, I meant a guy who was active in late 20 century. But Poniatowski might be second one.

Now Kuklinski (whose name has cropped up here a few times in the past week) is seen as both, depending on one's opinion of his deeds/misdeeds. Also Lech Wałęsa is revered by some and is an object of calumny for others.

YES!!! Jon, I am so glad there are such intelligent guys in PF (to counterbalance certain morons)! :):):):)


Exactly, it gave food to my thought about Polish heroic traitors or trecherous heroes.

Ryszard Jerzy Kukliński (June 13, 1930 - February 11, 2004) was a Polish colonel, Cold War spy and communist whistleblower. He passed top secret Warsaw Pact documents to the CIA between 1971 and 1981. The former United States National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzeziński has described him as "the first Polish officer in NATO."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Kukli%C5%84ski

After the war, Kukliński began a successful career in the Polish People's Army. In 1968, he took part in the preparations for the Warsaw Pact's invasion of Czechoslovakia. Disturbed by the invasion, and by the brutal crushing of the parallel Polish 1970 protests - in 1972, Kukliński sent a letter to the US embassy in Bonn describing himself as a foreign "MAF" from a Communist country, and requested a secret meeting.[1]

In 1994, Kukliński said that his awareness of the "unambiguously offensive" nature of Soviet military plans was an important factor in his decision to communicate the details of those plans to the United States, adding that "Our front could only be a sacrifice of Polish blood at the altar of the Red Empire".[2] Kukliński was also concerned that his homeland would be turned into a nuclear wasteland as the Warsaw Pact's superiority in conventional forces would mean NATO would respond to a military action with tactical nuclear weapons.



Plans of Polish People`s army`s attack on Western Europe which was supposed to clear the path for Soviet troops:

Polish map--

Neutral plan of 3rd World War - Polish cities would be destroyed by NATO retaliation after German cities were anihilated by Warsaw Pact nuclear strikes.

My personal choice of photos below suggests that I consider him a hero:

Ryszard Jerzy Kukliński

Unfortunately, many Poles consider him a traitor



Kościuszko is a controvercial figure to me. He fought for Poland hard but after defeat and last partition, he emigrated and didn`t return to Poland when part of it became liberated by Napoleon in early 19 century.

Both hero and traitor?
Kościuszko emigrated to the United States, but the following year returned to Europe and in 1798 settled in Breville, near Paris. Still devoted to the Polish cause, he took part in creating the Polish Legions. Also, on October 17 and November 6, 1799, he met with Napoleon Bonaparte. However, he failed to reach any agreement with the French leader, who regarded Kościuszko as a "fool" who "overestimated his influence" in Poland (letter from Napoleon to Fouché, 1807).

Kościuszko's heart, Royal Castle, Warsaw

Kościuszko remained politically active in Polish émigré circles in France and in 1799 was a founding member of the Society of Polish Republicans. However, he did not return to the Duchy of Warsaw and did not join the reborn Polish Army allied with Napoleon. Instead, after the fall of Napoleon's empire in 1815 he met with Russia's Tsar Alexander I in Braunau. In return for his prospective services, Kościuszko demanded social reforms and territorial gains for Poland, which he wished to reach as far as the Dvina and Dnieper Rivers in the east.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko

Kościuszko was a man who lived to fight for and spread the ideals of universal freedoms. He wasn't merely an émigré to the United States; he also fought in the American War of Independence with the rank of general and expressed in his will to have the money in his estate used to emancipate and educate black slaves.

Considering the era in which he lived it is amazing the amount of countries he travelled to and fought for. Given his rich experiences and many past successes he must have regarded returning to live in a partially liberated Poland too much of a compromise to his principles. In the end it may have been simply a case of advancing age and declining health which took their toll and prevented him from finally returning to live out his last days in Poland.

;) Yes American history.. and Pulaski reigns high on our list of patriots also,with several towns and cities named after him. ;)


Agreed


Between the freedom of America and the Gulags of Russia? Theres a choice here? regardless of 'strength" i'm going with freedom

Why traitor? I think he simply understand Napoleon too well - that he saw Poland only as a source of cannon fodder, food and horses, that he never intended to re-create Poland. Kościuszko was dissapointed and disillusioned man, very ill if not bedridden, but he took the last effort to do somethng for his country and met tzar Alexander in Braunau - only to be disappointed again

Good idea.


Another good idea.

OK, let`s assume he was only a hero, never a traitor.

Sorry, Kosciuszko, I withdraw my words.

he was a traitor to a nondemocratic communist vassal state, or a traitor of a traitors

Very true.

Merged: Questionable past of Polish war hero - Bernard Buchwald

At the end of 2013 Bernard Buchwald died. He is feted by the Polish Air Force as a hero of the second world war and I have no reason to question his war service. However, in his official biography on the Polish Air Force website there is a glaring omission which can only have come from him and casts a shadow over his honour and veracity.

In that biography he describes in some detail the time he spent in England. What he fails to mention is that while he was in England he married and had two children. When he returned to Poland he told his wife he was going to make a home for them and would send for them. His wife was left to bring up the two daughters without any input, assistance or interest from Mr Buchwald. It would appear that he expunged them from his memory.

Many years later he visited his wife without giving her any warning and left after an hour. This visit was the cause of extreme distress to his wife. Three days later she had a heart attack and within a few weeks she had died. Whether his visit caused her death is a matter for conjecture.

Following this visit his daughters obtained his address. One of them visited him in Poznan with her husband. The other daughter made a point of communicating by the occasional letter and Christmas cards. These rarely attracted a reply.

He made no response when informed of his wife's death; his older daughter's diagnosis of breast cancer and mastectomy or the death of his younger daughter from cancer. It seems reasonable to assume that he felt no familial responsibility towards them.

Interestingly, in his will he disinherited his surviving daughter and granddaughter on the grounds that they had failed in their familial responsibilities. That sounds very much like the pot calling the kettle black.

His surviving daughter recognises that she cannot in reality challenge the will even though his action in disinheriting her and her niece is yet another cruel rejection but she feels outraged both for herself, her sister and most of all her mother, that they can be written out of history in such a cavalier fashion.

It is only one side of the story.