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Poland: Her heroes and her traitors


gumishu 11 | 5,603
26 Oct 2011 #91
I'm loyal to Poland... in any case, if Poland is strong or weak...

in what way are you loyal to Poland? because I can think of many ways you can be quite unloyal to Poland (btw loyal to Poland means loyal to the government or the Polish people well-being in your dictionary)
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
26 Oct 2011 #92
Gumishu... who you are to judge me or my layolity ?...

I'm loyal with Poland, because I live here and pay f...g taxes, participate in voting, etc. What is your definition of the loyality for current times ?

As I see you only try to offence me...
gumishu 11 | 5,603
26 Oct 2011 #93
to offence

it's to offend

and no I don't mean to offend you - you offend yourself with your flawed logic
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
26 Oct 2011 #94
I don't want to argue with you... I have my opinion and you have your opinion, I don't judge you, that's all. EOT.
RetroDog
26 Oct 2011 #95
The dog is loyal to the bone...
look Breslau-1, what I wrote was connected to what you wrote before.
and ABS won't knock on anybody's door for having different point of view than government.
If we follow your logic, then Franciszek Zubrzycki was a hero 30 years ago and now he is not. You are saying that it doesn't matter what he did, it only matters who is in charge. That is soft skull thinking.

ABW not ABS
and again my dictionary make fun of myself
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
26 Oct 2011 #96
Yes yes... ABS is not going to knock to anyone...

If we follow your logic, then Franciszek Zubrzycki was a hero 30 years ago and now he is not. You are saying that it doesn't matter what he did, it only matters who is in charge. That is soft skull thinking.

I presented a point of view (hypothetical), if you don't understand it, I think we can't discuss, you think I'm stupid... I have comparable opinion about you... :) That's all.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
26 Oct 2011 #97
I'm loyal to Poland..

Elaborate please !
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
26 Oct 2011 #98
R. Kukliński betrayed people who he had worked with, that's all.

You mean Soviets, right?

Is it a problem to you he betrayed the Soviet Union and Polish communists?

Ryszard Jerzy Kukliński

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Kukli%C5%84ski
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
26 Oct 2011 #99
Elaborate please !

What is here to elaborate... I love my country, live here, pay taxes, work for Polish company... and have own opinions regarding politics :)
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
26 Oct 2011 #100
I love my country,

Do you suggest Kukliński didn`t love his country when he passed Soviet and Polish communist secrets to CIA?

Today, some are of the opinion that by revealing military plans to the Americans, he foiled a planned Soviet invasion of Poland in 1981 (resulting in the lesser evil of the martial law), and in this way may have helped prevent the start of a World War III that would have resulted in the nuclear destruction of Poland. This is difficult to judge, as the causes of the events surrounding the 1981 martial law are still hotly disputed by historians.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Kukli%C5%84ski
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
26 Oct 2011 #101
I think a case of Kukliński is not yet clear enough, there's commie propaganda on one side and American one on the other.
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
26 Oct 2011 #102
Isn`t the Polish interest in the centre/center?
Strange you don`t realise it...... ????
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
26 Oct 2011 #103
Is it a problem to you he betrayed the Soviet Union and Polish communists?

I have different problems than Kuklinski...

I had an opinion as the majority of people writing on this thread until I had a conversation with a veteran soldier from Armia Ludowa. These people believe in what they did. The current idea is to deprave the old political system, it was not ok, that's true, but people were right. Maybe not people on the top of the authority, but people on lower positions were not (probably) involved in bad political games.

Kuklinski was a controversial person, but I think he betrayed people who he worked with.

I would like to say that I'm not a fanatic of communism, USSR, PO, PiS, PZPR and another political organisation... :)
gumishu 11 | 5,603
26 Oct 2011 #104
I think a case of Kukliński is not yet clear enough, there's commie propaganda on one side and American one on the other.

what is not clear - do you think the guy sold Soviet tactical and strategic plans to Americans for money? are his not motives clear for you - communist Poland was no America - if found a traitor would be killed - noone of such an intelectual composure would risk his life for his personal gains - some facts may not be clear OK - perhaps we will never know the detail - but if you don't find his motives clear then I completely don't understand you
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
26 Oct 2011 #105
Do you suggest Kukliński didn`t love his country when he passed Soviet and Polish communist secrets to CIA?

As I see only you wrote it... what is the connection between my love to my country and Kuklinski's feelings ...? I don't know the intentions of Kuklinski.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
26 Oct 2011 #106
Kuklinski was a controversial person, but I think he betrayed people who he worked with.

can't you really see the analogy with mafia? or a company that covers their operations that are highly detrimental to the environment?

if these people who he worked with were deluded and believed in certain things and then felt betrayed it's actually only their problem - they haven't been punished because of his deeds - so what do you want

imagine yourself working in a company that smugles say radioactive waste to landfills - you didn't know that but you learn it step by step - what do you do - cover for those who you work with - not open your mouth because your friends tell you not to cause they don't want their company to get a bad name? - what is loyalty worth if you are loyal to evil???

I don't know the intentions of Kuklinski.

then simply read up, pal - cause you just seem to know to little about the guy (or your imagination fails you)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
26 Oct 2011 #107
I'm not an expert on Kukliński but according to my knowledge It isn't clear what kind of information he was providing the Yanks with and If he got paid for that or not... If he got paid for information about LWP, I don't see how good was that for Poles... or bed... WW3 would anyway have been a disaster for anyone living here.
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
26 Oct 2011 #108
but people on lower positions were not (probably) involved in bad political games.

Really?

See my fav video showing how communist police beat, tear gas and cannon water people who dared to have a different opinion in 1983:
youtu.be/qPLE3Y3gvMQ

Let it be another input into the thread: communist swinish stooges as traitors of Poland.

but I think he betrayed people who he worked with.

Communist apparatschiks? :):):):)

Wrocław, you are probably too young to have experienced communism. :):):):) I lived in those times and I don`t miss them in any way.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
26 Oct 2011 #109
What is here to elaborate...

What do you mean when you say that you are loyal to Poland?
To What or to whom you are loyal specifically?
Would a fact that Poland in times of Kuklinski's act wasn't interdependent country played no part in your loyalty?
I'm trying to understand your position and a little help from you would be appreciated.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
26 Oct 2011 #110
If he got paid for information about LWP, I don't see how good was that for Poles... or bed... WW3 would anyway have been a disaster for anyone living here.

oh my - would you risk your life (and that of your family) for even a couple of million bucks - Kukliński had a pretty comfortable postion - higher officer in the center of Polish army staff - you may lack in belief in higher principles or possibility that people can sacrifice for others - just read up - and try to imagine yourself in the guys situation
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
26 Oct 2011 #111
I have never seen any reliable information about Kukliński... First commies declared him a traitor and next free Poland under a very strong preassure declared him a hero... I will stay with my doubts.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
26 Oct 2011 #112
with doubts about what? about wethere he was a traitor of whether he was a hero? not being able to believe that people can act heroically? do you yourself feel betrayed by Kukliński? why actually if so? I pretty much think you have read or listened to Janusz Korwin-Mikke too much in your life - maybe you don't believe Kukliński was risking his life? or maybe you think he was a double agent? or maybe you think he was a genuine defector but the information he fed the US was false because it was fed by some Soviet intelligence cells? see a broader picture and what fits there
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
27 Oct 2011 #113
I don't want to argue with you, because many (if not all) your agruments are right but you are quoting selected sentences from my posts and comment, but don't see my general mind. There was few uprising after 1945, almost all of them was pacified by milicja or other communist military organisation. I wrote my opinion about one guy... please don't suggest to me that I glorify communism... it's really funny to me. But as I see I'm created by you as the lawyer of cummunism :) Like Jerzy Urban... what's your opinion about this man ? I would like to add that I like them, I'm still in minority ?:)

Maybe I'm not experienced by the communism, when this political system was gone, I was 12 years old, I saw the poverty in these times, empty shops etc.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
27 Oct 2011 #114
I would like to add that I like them, I'm still in minority ?

you like whom? Urban and Nie? well - de gustibus.. hehe - if you don't know what you like I will point it out for you - (if it is really Urban that you like) - it is cynicism - I wonder if you like Palikot too
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
27 Oct 2011 #115
or maybe you think he was a double agent? or maybe you think he was a genuine defector but the information he fed the US was false because it was fed by some Soviet intelligence cells?

Maybe... I know that in case of secret services even many things regarding WW2 are still secrets...

Like Jerzy Urban... what's your opinion about this man ?

A pieace of trash, hopefully he will die soon.
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
27 Oct 2011 #116
First commies declared him a traitor and next free Poland under a very strong preassure declared him a hero... I will stay with my doubts.

Your idol, Korwin Mikke, has the same opinion on Kukliński. Funny! :):):):):):)
korwin-mikke.blog.onet.pl/1,DA2007-02-16,index.html

Do you ever disagree with the chairman on anything? :):):):)
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
27 Oct 2011 #117
What do you mean when you say that you are loyal to Poland?

The question was about my loyality... and my answer was to this question directly, doesn't have any relation with Kuklinski, that's for a start.

If you want to know more things about my loyality or patriotism, I will answer for your questions with a pleasure:

What do you mean when you say that you are loyal to Poland?

I live here, want to stay here and want to build good Poland.

To What or to whom you are loyal specifically?

I'm not loyal with any specified person, if you expect me to specify any person, I won't, because I'm independent in my thoughts. I'm loyal with this country, I pay taxes, respect this country law.

Would a fact that Poland in times of Kuklinski's act wasn't interdependent country played no part in your loyalty?

My loyality to Poland has no connections with communism, Kuklinski, Jaruzelski, Rakowski, Kaczynski, Gorbaczow and many other persons.

I'm trying to understand your position and a little help from you would be appreciated.

I hope that I helped you to understand me.
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
27 Oct 2011 #118
Wrocław, a nice piece of historical education for you. :):):):)

My loyality to Poland has no connections with communism, Kuklinski, Jaruzelski, Rakowski, Kaczynski, Gorbaczow and many other persons.

Good. Now look at what would have happened if WW3 had broken out. Poland and Germany would have been destroyed by nuclear counterstrikes. Kukliński knew about it and tried to prevent such a situation.

Seven Days to the River Rhine was a top secret limited war game exercise developed in 1979 by the Warsaw Pact. It depicted the Soviet bloc's vision of a seven-day atomic war between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces.

The plans predicted that NATO would launch a nuclear attack on the Vistula river valley in a first strike scenario, which would prevent Soviet bloc commanders from sending reinforcements to East Germany to prevent a NATO invasion of that country. The plan expected as many as two million Polish civilians would die in such a war, which would essentially destroy the country. With options limited, a Soviet counter-strike against West Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and Denmark would take place in an effort to slow an invasion.


thegreatdayofannihilation.wordpress.com/tag/counter-strike
Wroclaw_666 1 | 47
27 Oct 2011 #119
you like whom? Urban and Nie? well - de gustibus.. hehe - if you don't know what you like I will point it out for you - (if it is really Urban that you like) - it is cynicism - I wonder if you like Palikot too

I will tell you something... Polish politics is so boring that I think we need something funny to make our days more colorful.

Urban is outside the active politics, but his position is so strong that can bring bad emotions when his name is pronounced :) I know his black history and don't praise him because of the past, but this guy has so impartial approach for political facts (especialy current) that I respect him.

If you ask about Palikot, I think this guy is mendacious, his political party is a creation of PR (public relations), I must his presence in Sejm (his party presence) was an effect of a very good job before the elections. It's very colorful and controversial man, he is very visible amongst gray majority of Polish politicians. But he is in Sejm, and it's third power there. To be sure (I suppose) that many people voted for him because of the protestation against boring wars between PO and PiS, other words... the protestations against Polish current politics.

I saw in some other post the name of another interesting man in Polish politics, Janusz Korwin-Mikke :) I was on few his lectures, when he visited the student dorm where I used to live during studies. He is very radical person, but some of his theses are right. In general he is... funny and have no chances to be elected to Sejm.
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
27 Oct 2011 #120
:):):):):)

Do you realise you are contradicting yourself now? :):):)

Urban is one of major political advisors to Palikot. :):):)

oops, Wrocław 666, are you going to get up at 7 am tomorrow in order to attend your high school? :):):):)
Congratulations on your English - very good for your real age. :):):):)


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