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POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country?


zetigrek
2 Jan 2013 #721
Since you read everything you really seem to have problems with comprehension.

Who the above post you direct to?

Freudian slip?

Nope.
I just felt that the next thing you'd do will be calling me a homophobe. It's very predictible. And the word problem means idea or matter.
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #722
That was part of the discussion wit Greg.
Its really tiresome of repeating quotes from the last page over and over, so i took the liberty to skip it that time.

I just felt that the next thing you'd do will be calling me a homophobe.

Was it really so obvious following this post?

Why do you thinks so? Bacause of gay marriage?

And the word problem means idea or matter.

Interesting interpretation.
zetigrek
2 Jan 2013 #723
Its really tiresome of repeating quotes from the last page over and over, so i took the liberty to skip it that time.

I suggest repharsing your thoughts because as you see they are not always understood correctly. By the way a dicussion should consist of providing proof for your agruments. What we can see so far are just stating the obvious for everyone fact that Poland is refered in many countries as Eastern Europe. Somewhere else it's referd Central. So what? Is this changing anything?
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #724
that's rather a wild generalisation isn't it....

Is it? What an average British man/woman know about countries East of Germany? I don't mean Russia, because they're ought to know something about Russia (some even thought Warsaw is in Russia... lol)

kind of dismissing all educated or knowledgeable british people in one fell swoop....?

Erm... I'm not dismissing anyone, I don't think it's about education, rather about interest, don't you think?
I think that because of the isolation of the communist block Westerners in general know little about countries which were part of that block. I imagine it will be changing with time (or not, who knows).

It's no use to explain to him all those intricacies.

I know, but I like to get to the bottom of things and find out why Poland being Central is such a big problem for him ;)

I suspect the desire of some posters here to pretend that Poland isn't Eastern European at all is made up of 25% Russophobia, 25% Cultural Cringe, 25% ignorance and/or lack of perspective on Eastern and Central Europe and 25% cluelessness.

Am I one of those "some posters"? :) If so, then you are wrong. I'm not a russophobe, far, far, faaar from that. I can give you e-mail adresses of my Russian friends who can attest for that :) (even my Russian "enemies" wouldn't consider me a russophobe ;))

What is Cultural Cringe?
As for ignorance and lack of perspective I probably know more about Poland and Eastern Europe than you do?
And concerning cluelessness - Eastern Europeans don't consider Poles Eastern. It was my discussions with Russians that made my see how deep is the division between East and West Slavs...

The Westerners don't consider Poles Western, the Easterners don't consider Poles Eastern - so the only reasonable and logical conclusion is that were're Central lol ;) All in all, all this is funny anyway - nobody wants us, damn :)))

So, berni23, will you answer my question today? Which countries would you put in Eastern Europe?
zetigrek
2 Jan 2013 #725
Was it really so obvious following this post?

No because you don't know my views.
I might support some ideas and not support others. But I can tell you I never support any view because it's consider "progressive". I'm not a sheep to fall into such manipulation.

Unfortunately there are some people that I "met" on the Internet who think that they have right to judge what is backward and what is progresive. Those people say that Poland is backward country and doesn't match up to Western European standards... and that's how I understood your post meant behind the lines.

Whether an idea is good or not, it is always wrong to evaluate it in terms of backwardness and progressiveness.

I know, but I like to get to the bottom of things and find out why Poland being Central is such a big problem for him ;)

He's immature. Look what he has written:

zetigrek: And the word problem means idea or matter. Interesting interpretation.

As if he had a better command of English.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
2 Jan 2013 #726
It doesn't matter what regional classification Poland has. It's just the idea of getting it right.

That's from 14 months ago and probably too logical for some (here) to 'get it'.
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #727
FFS:

I suggest repharsing your thoughts because as you see they are not always understood correctly.

By you obviously.

By the way a dicussion should consist of providing proof for your agruments.

I have provided plenty of facts and will not repeat them over and over.

What we can see so far are just stating the obvious for everyone fact that Poland is refered in many countries as Eastern Europe.

You are again referring to the political concept of Eastern Europe and agian i never stated that.

The Westerners don't consider Poles Western, the Easterners don't consider Poles Eastern - so the only reasonable and logical conclusion is that were Central lol ;) All in all, its' funny :)))

Or Inbetween Europe. ;)

So, berni23, will you answer my question today? Which countries would you put in Eastern Europe?

As you can see i didnt come around to that.
I explained language already.
Ethnically:

Et

Culturally:

rher

And the word problem means idea or matter.

Interesting interpretation.

As if he had a better command of English.

Lemme rephrase that: What you wrote is complete and utter *********.
zetigrek
2 Jan 2013 #728
Culturally:

Are we culturally close to... ROMANIA!?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
2 Jan 2013 #729
Ethnically:

Yes... It's a map showing major ethnic groups... And ?

Culturally:

What this map has to do with culture ? Please explain...
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #730
Or Inbetween Europe. ;)

You have some objection to the word "Central"? lol ;)

Berni, those maps differ. That's why I want you to write down all the countries you consider Eastern European. Enumerate them, please ;)
David_18 68 | 982
2 Jan 2013 #731
@Berni23 & jon357

Stop trolling you clowns.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

"It is a common mistake to label all Slavic or the former Eastern Bloc states (united under the Warsaw Pact) in the region as located in Eastern Europe."
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #732
Yes... It's a map showing major ethnic groups... And ?

As i already said twice if one would name one region of Europe based on language, ethnicity and culture it would be Eastern Europe, since geographically it makes the most sense.

What this map has to do with culture ? Please explain...

Wrong link: map euro poland
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #733
lol... This map makes no sense...
Why big part of France is the same colour as Poland? And Germany and France are of different colour?
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #734
It is a common mistake to label all Slavic or the former Eastern Bloc states (united under the Warsaw Pact) in the region as located in Eastern Europe.

And we back to political concepts of Europe.

That's why I want you to write down all the countries you consider Eastern European. Enumerate them, please ;)

Yeah, i want many things too.
You seem like an intelligent person and im sure you could manage.

Why big part of France is the same colour as Poland?

They are not.

And Germany and France are of different colour?

I guess i have to retract my previous statement:

You seem like an intelligent person

zetigrek
2 Jan 2013 #735
Can someone read what the colors on the map mean? It too small resolution to make out the letters.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #736
Yeah, i want many things too.
You seem like an intelligent person and im sure you could manage.

Now, now, berni23, you won't slip away that easily :)
It's not about which countries I, Paulina, consider Eastern European, but which countries you, berni23, consider Eastern European. So, please, enumerate them. It's not like there are hundreds of them or something :)

They are not.

Photoshop says they are :)

I guess i have to retract my previous statement:

lol
So it came already to name calling, eh? :)
Are we talking about the same map?
Because I wrote about this one:
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #737
Can someone read what the colors on the map mean? It too small resolution to make out the letters.

Its the Lewis model: Prolly not the best choice of illustrating Polish cultural closeness to its neighbors to the east, but i couldnt find another so fast.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #738
;D

I cannot... This is too much... lol
jon357 66 | 17,030
2 Jan 2013 #739
Do you claim to know better who Poles are and what's their culture than Poles themselves? That's bold.

Often a relative newcomer has far less political and cultural baggage and cares little about the various inter-Eastern European debates and arguments. In short, objectivity.

What is Cultural Cringe?

Google it. You'll certainly find plenty in this thread.

Those who says we share some amount of dishes - that's true. We share some with Germans too e.g. saurkraut.

We also share some with Italians, e.g. Pizza. Nobody. I hope nobody is suggesting that makes Poland part of Southern Europe. The overwhelming bulk of the Polish culinary tradition is Eastern European, part of a continuum stretching from the Polish western border right to Vladivostok.
Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Jan 2013 #740
It was my discussions with Russians that made my see how deep is the division between East and West Slavs...

Could you detail it?Thanks.
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #741
So, please, enumerate them. It's not like there are hundreds of them or something :)

Just take the language and ethnicity map and you have the countries belonging to the Eastern European group.

Are we talking about the same map?
Because I wrote about this one:

We are and claiming that France and Germany are culturally identical is ridicules.
They have been fighting for centuries.

I cannot... This is too much... lol

Me neither, the fanatical views that Poland is ethnically and linguistically closer to the West than its eastern neighbors seem to be deeply rooted in some people.

There is no reasoning with such people.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
2 Jan 2013 #742
berni ask yourself where do you put Czechs, Slovaks and especially Sorbians (I guess you know who Sorbians are) - are they Eastern Europeans or something else
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #743
Nope, they are Central Europe just like Poland is, but as i already said 3 times if one would name one region of Europe based on language, ethnicity and culture it would be Eastern Europe.

And this was also the last time.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #744
Could you detail it?Thanks.

Dear Lord, I've been discussing with Russians for 5/6 years... How can I detail it? lol
But I'll try to write something after I'll eat ;)

Just take the language and ethnicity map and you have the countries belonging to the Eastern European groups.

Berni, I don't care about maps as I'm not sure what they are telling you.
I want to know which countries YOU consider Eastern European.
Enumerate.... them... please :)

We are and claiming that France and Germany are culturally identical is ridicules.
They have been fighting for centuries.

Berni, you put that map on the forum intending to prove your point and you achieved the opposite, which I find quite funny, that's all ;)

Me neither, the fanatical views that Poland is ethnically and linguistically closer to the West than its eastern neighbors seem to be deeply rooted in some people.

You're twisting it, noone claims that Poland ethnically and linguistically is closer to the West than its Eastern neighbors (although maybe it is to some extent but I'm not going to go as far as digging in genetics lol). But culturally - yes, it's closer.

There is no reasoning with such people.

And what reasoning there can be with someone who can't even enumerate Eastern European countries?
Ironside 50 | 10,939
2 Jan 2013 #745
In purely geographical sense Poland is situated in central Europe. Problem is only in precisely pointing out what is and what is not Central Europe, a problem that do not have in Americans where such geographical features can be clearly distinguished.

Other than that we can talk about Europe in political sense when all those cultural and economical features already mentioned.
In after-mentioned order place of Poland fluctuate.
If one take imperialistic (some prefer to call it realpolitik) look at Poland and others countries in the region, they belong to the Eastern Europe. In short none of those countries is a big player in the international politics neither is an economical power.

In the sense Germany before WWI was called Central Europe and Austro-Hungary whose lands where shifted to the east comparing to present Poland was also Central Europe.

Meaning there is the west and the east (Russia) and in between there is Eastern Europe which is a kind of a play ground for those two. Once it is western foothold and more often than not it is eastern foothold.

Of course for Poles with their culture, history and aspirations they situated themselves in the Central Europe. The land when Russian and German powers and influence would be negated by rising sun of Polish power. So far it is only true in their half-realized aspirations and in culture which is neither eastern nor western.
jon357 66 | 17,030
2 Jan 2013 #746
At last, a sensible post. The situation is a complicated one, and those posters who whine on about wanting Poland to be in Central rather than Eastern Europe would do far better to examine their motives for that wish.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #747
The situation is a complicated one, and those posters who whine on about wanting Poland to be in Eastern rather than Central Europe would do far better to examine their motives for that wish.

:)

Objectivity - you've got to love it :)))
zetigrek
2 Jan 2013 #748
Its the Lewis model:

What's that?
The only Lewis model I found is:

The dual-sector model is a model in developmental economics. It is commonly known as the Lewis model after its inventor Sir William Arthur Lewis, winner of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics in 1979. It explains the growth of a developing economy in terms of a labour transition between two sectors, the capitalist sector and the subsistence sector.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_model
Ironside 50 | 10,939
2 Jan 2013 #749
rolly not the best choice of illustrating Polish cultural closeness to its neighbors to the east, but i couldnt find another so fast.

Stop that BS berni! It make you look like a fool. not that you are not one but still..
jon357 66 | 17,030
2 Jan 2013 #750
those posters who whine on about wanting Poland to be in Eastern

Odd that you seem to be seeing things that simply aren't there. What I see is a lot of special pleading by people who earnestly want for whatever reason that Poland isn't in Eastern Europe, despite culture, cuisine, tradition, language, history, architecture, landscape, economic output and geography. Basically a desire to separate Poland from centuries of tradition and from its largest and most dominant neighbour.


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