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Chances of Moscow becoming part of Poland again?



Nathan 18 | 1,373    
16 Jul 2010  #1

Well, Poles owned Russians twice, I mean Russian capital and surrounding territories. So what stands in the way of organizing little union of countries with new "Drang nach Ural" foreign policy? Population increases and the lands get scarce. Since 6,650,000,000 people live on 8/9th of the land and 150,000,000 in Russian federation live on 1/9th of the available land (more than 1 : 5.5 inverse density ratio), wouldn't even understandable will to get the territories back be more appropriate to realize. Does these lands have to be totally over-run by Asian countries or we may do something to these waste lands?


Eurola 4 | 1,912    
16 Jul 2010  #2

I think it's easier for Moscow to reclaim Poland the way things are going.
Czarnkow1940 5 | 95    
16 Jul 2010  #3

+1

Population increases and the lands get scarce.

Poland's population if anything is decreasing it dosent have enough people to take back Lwow , Brest ect let alone Moscow.
Eurola 4 | 1,912    
16 Jul 2010  #4

Eurola:
Population increases and the lands get scarce.

I did not say that, Nathan did in his opening thread.

If there is a population increase, it's not the Polish or any western one. How about sending all the Muslims from Europe all the way to Moscow?
OP Nathan 18 | 1,373    
16 Jul 2010  #5

How about sending all the Muslims from Europe all the way to Moscow?

Anyone willing to start a new life in a new environment (a bit harsh, but not that bad) should be encouraged to settle in the regained wastelands of Russia. China, India, Mexico which population are increasing, have to expand somehow, otherwise they will explode. Currently North America is the primary shock-absorber of growing populations from these countries. But how long will it last? 15-20 years? And then? 1/9th of the Earth lands lies practically unpopulated. These lands have to be used to protect viability of our overpopulated states.

I did not say that, Nathan did in his opening thread.

He doesn't dare to talk directly to me :)

I think it's easier for Moscow to reclaim Poland the way things are going.

In her dreams, maybe.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
16 Jul 2010  #6

Good idea Nathan. There are only two conditions:

1. Learn Russian language
2. Adopt Orthodoxy

Make it and you can settle in Russia wherever you want.
Borrka 37 | 594    
16 Jul 2010  #7

There are only two conditions:

Not enough - one has to believe in Konek-Gorbunok (the Humpbacked Pony) .
OP Nathan 18 | 1,373    
16 Jul 2010  #8

Good idea Nathan.

I know.

There are only two conditions:

1. Learn Russian language
2. Adopt Orthodoxy

Make it and you can settle in Russia wherever you want.

;) You, probably, missed my point. "Drang nach Ural" foreign policy is not interested in your language or believes. It is something that you should concern yourself with. You should think where to resettle, not what language I will be studying :) Conditions for you will be to disappear and better sooner than later or become a part of the new settlement. Personaly, I prefer the first.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
16 Jul 2010  #9

Not enough - one has to believe in Konek-Gorbunok (the Humpbacked Pony) .

I think it is one of the best fairy tales in russian literature

;) You, probably, missed my point. "Drang nach Ural" foreign policy is not interested in your language or believes. It is something that you should concern yourself with. You should think where to resettle, not what language I will be studying :) Conditions for you will be to disappear and better sooner than later or become a part of the new settlement. Personaly, I prefer the first.

Nathan, I know two good words for you - Praha and Katyn
Mr Grunwald 17 | 1,480    
16 Jul 2010  #10

There are few chances left, as CEE don't have any ambitions what so ever over going into an adventure in the coldest places on earth which had a lot of visitors through ages :)

I invite ConstantineK as a representant for the Russian federation to discuss politics over Eastern Europe on my thread "CEE - Central European Empire"

polishforums.com/off-topic-lounge-47/cee-central-european-empire-43846 /2/
Vasiliok - | 2    
17 Jul 2010  #11

“Little Union of countries” will get greater nuclear war in Europe, lol. The Russians will always respect Stalin for the creation and adoption of nuclear weapons for USSR. :)

The Russian aren’t Indians and Russia isn’t America.

Most of Russia’s territories is not suitable for life. Absolutely. Developing a comprehensive infrastructure for quality of living similar it in Europe or even in the "second world" is incredible money. And the money is not repaid - because climate is working against the people. Russia is "gold mine" and "black hole" at the same time. Russia has everything - from the forest to the diamonds, but the most valuable deposits are located in places, in which production is very difficult and uneconomical.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
17 Jul 2010  #12

The Russians will always respect Stalin for the creation and adoption of nuclear weapons for USSR. :)

Exactly. At least this fact give him the rightful place in Russian history.

Most of Russia’s territories is not suitable for life. Absolutely. Developing a comprehensive infrastructure for quality of living similar it in Europe or even in the "second world" is incredible money. And the money is not repaid - because climate is working against the people. Russia is "gold mine" and "black hole" at the same time. Russia has everything - from the forest to the diamonds, but the most valuable deposits are located in places, in which production is very difficult and uneconomical.

Partly you are right, but your conclusions are imperfect. Certainly, and it is clear for everybody that Russia has quite harsh and inconvenient climate conditions on its most territory. But it will not prevent us from bending you in our will. Why? It is interesting how little information about Russia you have, you are living in the world of vulgar and vague anecdotes about Russia and its people:

1. "Russia produces only oil and gas". True, gas and oil are important components of Russian economy, but at present we are selling more grain than Canada and USA. Give us few years and we shall pull tight our livestock, for ample stock of grains inevitably results in livestock and milk industry. Believe me and remember my words, you agriculture with all its subsidy eventually will give up under pressure of russian foodstuffs. In the future you will eat only Russian and it is obvious fact if you give yourself pains to think about it.

2. We have highly educated people.

3. We have huge resources

4. "Declining population in Russia". Nonsense! This trend was overcame and now we have completely different situation. I can see it myself on everyday basis. Even more, here in Russia the most pressing problem is available places in kindergartens. It is huge shortage of kindergartens in all cities. It is one of the most important national problems.

5. "Enormous muslim population". Russians are very easy for interbreeding. I see it perfectly. There are many couples with international content. Ten or fifteen years and Russian people will have extremely homogeneous content. We do not such burning national or race problems as in Europe or Americas.

6. We have enough money and means to make our industry and science modern

Certainly, we have many problems. But our people is hardy and united, we can solve them. For sure, it is not for Poland to dance on our bones. Be careful, we shall care about you as soon as we shall finish with consolidation of our neighbour territory.
Borrka 37 | 594    
18 Jul 2010  #13

at present we are selling more grain than Canada and USA

Hardly true:
en.rian.ru/business/20090512/121557051.html

Still you're entitle to say ""Russia produces only oil, gas and grain" now.

We have highly educated people.

Less than US, about the average European index:

map

I even don't start to discuss the quality of education LOL.

We have huge resources

Yes you do.

Russians are very easy for interbreeding.

An old Soviet myth again but even in Soviet times more wishful thinking than true.
Today, except for the Slavic population and Russian Tatars, intermarriages are portrayed as sinful issue.

We have enough money and means to make our industry and science modern

Sure. And that is the reason Akadem Gorodok looks like after heavy air raid and all Soviet R&D Insitutes were converted to small privet owned import companies.
Sick0 - | 11    
18 Jul 2010  #14

Only idiot could make such thread ...
OP Nathan 18 | 1,373    
18 Jul 2010  #15

You are right, Sicko ;)

There are few chances left, as CEE don't have any ambitions what so ever over going into an adventure in the coldest places on earth which had a lot of visitors through ages :)

The visitors from a bit further removed lands (France or Germany) always made their visits at the wrong time of the year. You have to be there in summer, not for Christmas :)

Battle of Klushino 1610 occurred on July the 4th - nice victory for Poland.
In 1618 Petro Sahaidachny's campaign against the Muscovy resulted in sacking numerous forts such as Putivl, Kursk, Yelets, and others. Together with Chodkiewicz he laid the siege to Moscow in September of 1618. These battles all occurred when the sun was shining :) Russians don't like that - you can only drink water then ;) No spirit for battle ;)

Coldest places on Earth? Come on. There are already fights for the shelf and its covered resources in the Arctic ocean. These places are warming up and become suitable for living.
Velund 1 | 226    
18 Jul 2010  #16

Will not comment other stuff but...

These places are warming up and become suitable for living.

It is suitable for living right now. Provided you are ready to change your life style. ;) And there is square kilometers of land necessary to support life of one person, instead of just square meters in a more warm and fertile places. If it will be slightly warmer, that lands may support more people, but density of self-sufficient population there never be even remotely comparable to ones in India or southern China. Even to Western/Central Europe..

So, just counting of square kilometers is totally dumb idea. Try to count people that land can feed (guaranteed) - result will be much more realistic.

Today, except for the Slavic population and Russian Tatars, intermarriages are portrayed as sinful issue.

Small caucasian tribes fear that they will be finally dissolved in Russian ethnos... Well, more than real perspective (and, sooner or later, it will..). But many of them marrying within clans that already have too much common predecessors. Not good for their gene pool, of course.
Mr Grunwald 17 | 1,480    
19 Jul 2010  #17

The visitors from a bit further removed lands (France or Germany) always made their visits at the wrong time of the year. You have to be there in summer, not for Christmas :)
Battle of Klushino 1610 occurred on July the 4th - nice victory for Poland.
In 1618 Petro Sahaidachny's campaign against the Muscovy resulted in sacking numerous forts such as Putivl, Kursk, Yelets, and others. Together with Chodkiewicz he laid the siege to Moscow in September of 1618. These battles all occurred when the sun was shining :)

Indeed but still, CEE doesn't have any plans on invading the Russian federation for the time being.

There are already fights for the shelf and its covered resources in the Arctic ocean.

Let them fight, ill build up the countries while they waste money on fantasy expeditions.

These places are warming up and become suitable for living.

You know what Ice is don't you? ;)

Try to count people that land can feed (guaranteed) - result will be much more realistic.

I got problems imagining grass lands on the North pole

tribes fear that they will be finally dissolved in Russian ethnos...

Same fear in Poland too
Velund 1 | 226    
20 Jul 2010  #18

I got problems imagining grass lands on the North pole

Land is not necessarily should be grass covered to support life. Look how Chukchas lived for centuries. ;) But, really, it is all about square kilometers per person to survive (just above absolute minimum for survival).

Same fear in Poland too

Poland is large enough. A number of tribes totalled less than 50000 each have much more reasons to fear it.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,382    
20 Jul 2010  #19

Velund

Would anyone in eastern Russia be aware of their Polish heritage out of the people who were transported from Poland over the centuries?
polishmeknob 5 | 155    
20 Jul 2010  #20

Both Poland's and Russia's populations are falling. Land isn't getting more scarce, it's becoming more available.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
20 Jul 2010  #21

Chances of Moscow becoming part of Poland again?

It isn`t impossible in Slavic Confederation with Warsaw as capital and Polish language as official.

if Poles follow Serbian initiatives, Slavic Confederation would be nothing but Greater Poland and Russians would be proud with it.

key word is `Serbians`
Velund 1 | 226    
21 Jul 2010  #22

Would anyone in eastern Russia be aware of their Polish heritage out of the people who were transported from Poland over the centuries?

Personally, I do not know anyone of Polish decent in eastern part of Russia (i.e. Siberia and Far East). One of two families in Moscow that is known to me use Polish on a family level sometimes, kids are fluent in English as well, another one is looks pretty much like typical russian family, never heard them speaking Polish on a public, but they often visit their Polish relatives.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,382    
21 Jul 2010  #23

I see, thanks that's interesting.
Czarnkow1940 5 | 95    
21 Jul 2010  #24

It isn`t impossible in Slavic Confederation with Warsaw as capital and Polish language as official.

Crow you seem obsessed with something " Slavic Confederation" that wont happen for happen for a number of reasons the first being that Russia would never join a confederation of any kind where Poland or any country for that fact had a major influence over it.Also you seem to think that Poland needs and wants Serbians help for some reason if Serbia were to disappear from the map it wouldn't make a difference to Poland.If anything it is Serbia which needs Poland's help not the other way around.
Seanus 15 | 19,748    
21 Jul 2010  #25

Those dimwits in the Russian government can't even man their own territories sufficiently. It lends support to the argument that they don't care for human life, whether it be that of their own people or others. A bit like the Soviet Union, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Putin wanted a second war and he got one. Now he can take all the blasts from Mujas and deal with it himself as Poland will have nothing to do with their greed.

Crow, let people form federations and not governments. After all, they outnumber them :)
bbanjo69    
21 Jul 2010  #26

there was an interesting comment made by a polish college professor who taught at one of leading russian institutions of higher learning. a comment that expressed an utter

despair and disbelieve when confronted with opinions of his russian students about stalin.
those young and supposedly educated people glorified the psychopath (seemed to care nothing about tens of millions of innocent victims slaughtered purposelessly, starved to death or worked into the ground in kolyma gulag archipelagos) and strongly believed that katyn massacre was perpetrated by the nazis. how typical it is of russian thinking practiced over the centuries of existence of russian state thru its various incarnations and political systems : complete disregard and disrespect for human lives. russians may not care about their slaughtered millions but we, the educated europeans should never forget those people whether they were russian nationals, finnish freedom fighters in the winter war, polish, ukrainians, estonians, lithuanians, latvians, german women raped and killed en mass by stalin willing executioners or anybody else who experienced wonders of stalinism.

jurnaltv.ro/video/The_Soviet_Story_Povestea_sovietelor_incredibil

a closing comment :
u see russia is not and never was europe! it is through the politics and map rearrangment by catherine the great that europe was pushed all the way to the ural mountains making

russia, or at least portion of it, a european state and russians europeans . :))
OP Nathan 18 | 1,373    
21 Jul 2010  #27

u see russia is not and never was europe! it is through the politics and map rearrangment by catherine the great that europe was pushed all the way to the ural mountains making
russia, or at least portion of it, a european state and russians europeans . :))

Great point, bbanjo69. And I don't believe a second that russia will ever be a normal European state that practices democratic principles. They will always live in the tzar-demanding mentality, which is able to survive on wars and fear since they were not and won't ever be able to compete with the rest of Europe based on the same rules, be it in business or simply in an everyday social life. Guess why russia is in G8 - economy? ;)

russians may not care about their slaughtered millions but we, the educated europeans should never forget those people whether they were russian nationals, finnish freedom fighters in the winter war, polish, ukrainians, estonians, lithuanians, latvians, german women raped and killed en mass by stalin willing executioners or anybody else who experienced wonders of stalinism.

Of course, none of us will; we will always remember those who paid for our freedom by their lives; that's why Europe and other democracies should be cherished like a pupil of the eye for letting people think, be independent and know the truth.
Vasiliok - | 2    
22 Jul 2010  #28

Nathan

Are you Putin's spy?! O_o
Ziemowit 8 | 2,640    
25 Aug 2014  #29

Well, Poles owned Russians twice, I mean Russian capital and surrounding territories.

Why do you say "twice"? As far as I know, it happened only once. And the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia stood a pretty good chance to form some kind of a union then, if only Sigismundus III had not been so stupid as a fervently catholic Polish king of the Swedish Vasa dynasty.
Mazovia    
28 Aug 2014  #30

Well, Poles owned Russians twice, I mean Russian capital and surrounding territories.

I think Ukraine is in the way.
I believe a large chunk of their territory have polish claim on them. Lets start with that,




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