The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 341

Poland's biggest historical blunder?


hubabuba - | 113
26 May 2011 #241
So you still can not tell us exactly what Britain could have done to help Poland but did not do. OK, nice of you to finally admit it.

what words do I need to use so You understand?read my answers and You will find what You are looking for

British men were fighting and dying well before France was invaded. I wonder why you feel the need to lie about their sacrifice.

how many?

Yes it is a lie. You say Britain did nothing and the historical facts are very different, this has been repeatedly pointed out to you but you still repeat your claims: that makes them lies and you a liar.

Well done, unfortunately you claimed that the British government "supported" the commies: prove that claim or admit that it is a lie. As for the Polish govt in exile being legal, remind me which free and fair elections had seen that self-apppointed government voted into office.

allright, Britain did almost nothing
it didnt need elections, look up the art 24 of April constitution of Poland-it was legal goverment. Britain abandoned alled Polish goverment in exile and recognized and cooperated with the commie one, i call it a support

Did Polish troops invade land which was on the Lithuanian side of the demarcation line? Yes, they did.
As for the treaty not mentioning Vilnius, the 1990 German-Polish border treaty doesn't mention Gdansk, does that mean the Germans can have Danzig back?

no, they didnt, because the agreed demarcation line was ending BEFORE the Vilnius region, so the reference to Gdańsk is pointless

And Poland agreed to that, the day before they invaded Lithuania and stole Lithuanian property.

how can You steal Your own property?

Liar. Even the interbellum Polish censuses (which were fixed) had to agree that the majority of the people
in south east Poland were Ukrainian!

do You have any proof that they were fixed?You are only right when it comes to villages, were majority was Ukr

My people are not in Belfast, but do feel free to lie about them being there.

I am sorry I thought You were British
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
27 May 2011 #242
how many?

one stubbed toe would have been too great a sacrifice for a sick ungreatfull ***** like you. Its a good job the wartime generation of Poles are dying off because they would be terminally embarresed by the whining and whinging by people who clearly know so little about the subject.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
27 May 2011 #243
Absolutely. The UK declared the war against the Nazis immediately after the attack, sent its troops during the war on the continent, gave the planes, weapons, food to the Polish soldiers and now this embarrassment of the XXI century quacks pathetically that the Britain did nothing. Shame. It isn't even worth wasting words.

You are only right when it comes to villages, were majority was Ukr

Listen, polish einstein. Count the people in the villages and cities surrounding Lviv in 1931 and compare to 60% of the Polish population in Lviv itself that same year and tell me who was in the majority. Places all the way to Jaroslaviv (now Jaroslawow in Poland), Peremyshel, Holm (built by our king, btw) had the Ukrainians in the majority. But we don't seem to quack that the Poles didn't allow the plebiscite and instead organized an expulsion of 250,000 Ukrainians under operation Wisla in 1947.
legend 3 | 664
27 May 2011 #244
Absolutely. The UK declared the war against the Nazis immediately after the attack, sent its troops during the war on the continent, gave the planes, weapons, food to the Polish soldiers and now this embarrassment of the XXI century quacks pathetically that the Britain did nothing. Shame. It isn't even worth wasting words.

Britain did almost nothing. Declaring war without SIGNIFICANT action is pointless.
They dropped a few fliers here and there and maybe bombed a few ships.
Quite a reaction by the Brits.

They gave planes, weapons, food, etc to Poles (and others) after France was raped but that was afterward. We are talking about 1939 here not 1940 or 1941.

Another reason they were giving Poles and other nations supplies was because Britain needed all the help it could get. If it wasnt an island it would be run over faster than Poland and France easily. A week tops :)

They sent troops to the war which then ran like flies to dunkirk and hell knows where.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
27 May 2011 #245
Britain did almost nothing. Declaring war without SIGNIFICANT action is pointless.

What did you do for your country? Raised a white flag after 3 weeks after infamous bragging of running over Germany "whether they want it or not". Did you show SIGNIFICANT action by surrendering in 20 days??? Before any NORMAL country let its own citizens die for the life of some other state which invaded Czechoslovakia and Lithuania a few months earlier there needs to be devised a strategy and all the necessary logistical and military elements accumulated: people, weapons, ships, planes, provision, public opinion, taxes... You don't take a white flag and march on an enemy like some prefer to do. Preparation, my friend, is essential.

They gave planes, weapons, food, etc to Poles (and others) after France was raped but that was afterward. We are talking about 1939 here not 1940 or 1941.

You are lucky they gave it. They could have left you die like flies and build their own defenses or help out the French without giving a cr*p about the Eastern front.

If it wasnt an island it would be run over faster than Poland and France easily. A week tops :)

It is not Poland.

They sent troops to the war which then ran like flies to dunkirk and hell knows where.

Well, there were no flies in Poland after 3 weeks.
legend 3 | 664
27 May 2011 #246
We fought unlike many ***** countries. What the **** did your country do huh?
You sign a treaty for a reason. Every country would get invaded and ran over regardless of preparation.
Significant action? We fought. Plus Poland was the 4th largest ally contributor to the war even. We fought on more fronts than any allied country.

I dont think you understand the power of Germany and Russia and their numbers.

Poland prepared to the best of their abilities moron. Think of Russia vs Ukraine what would happen.
It would be like a fat guy sitting on an ant.

Well, there were no flies in Poland after 3 weeks.

Its called a resistance. We had the biggest one in Europe (AK, Bch which my grandparents were part of).
At the same time we had troops scattered throughout Europe.

Is there an ignore feature on this site? Too many idiots.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
27 May 2011 #247
What the **** did your country do huh?

It is not about Ukraine, but if you want to know:

In total, the number of ethnic Ukrainians that fought in the ranks of the Soviet Army is estimated from 4.5 million[50] to 7 million.[53][d] The pro-Soviet partisan guerilla resistance in Ukraine is estimated to number at 47,800 from the start of occupation to 500,000 at its peak in 1944; with about 50 percent of them being ethnic Ukrainians.[54] Generally, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army's figures are very undependable, ranging anywhere from 15,000 to as much as 100,000 fighters.[55][56]

The difference is nobody here whines that someone didn't help us when in Poland's case there was help from the UK.

I dont think you understand the power of Germany and Russia and their numbers.

I understand and the British understood and didn't end up throwing their army into a pitch jeopardizing the future of Europe to save Poland for a month. You are the one who doesn't understand it.

Poland prepared to the best of their abilities moron.

I don't argue with that and I think your grandfathers fought courageously. The only thing that bothers me is understimation and unappreciation of the help your state received from Britain.

We had the biggest one in Europe

You have everything the biggest, the best and the first. I am not going to argue.

Think of Russia vs Ukraine what would happen.
It would be like a fat guy sitting on an ant.

God forbid a war, but we will make it memorable for them.
*sees fat-devouring ants finishing someone's a*ss* :)

Is there an ignore feature on this site? Too many idiots

I agree ;)
Ironside 50 | 10,910
27 May 2011 #248
What did you do for your country? Raised a white flag after 3 weeks

Poland didn't surrender, and you should come out from Canadian wilderness it is not good for your mental health.

Yeah, thats right Ukrainians were soldiers in Red Army - no reason to brag.But I understand you, you have nothing else to show, you wouldn't brag about Ukrainians soldiers fighting for Hitler now? SS Schützen-Division Galizien, SS Strilećka Dywizija Hałyczyna

For the record - Ukrainians being soldiers in Read Army are mostly Ukrainians from Soviet State, soviet citizens, I have no issue with them.
On the other hand there are Ukrainians from Polish land's, and given that many of them behaved in genocidal manner I do not believe that an understanding could be achieved.

Maybe I'm influenced by Nathan.

one stubbed toe would have been too great a sacrifice for a sick ungreatfull ***** like you. Its a good job the wartime generation of Poles are dying off because they would be terminally embarresed by the whining and whinging by people who clearly know so little about the subject.

Well, luckily you don't have to rescue her/him.
As for the wartime generation depend to whom you were talking. Opinions differ, from foot soldiers to commanding generals, from soldiers operating in the west or in Poland.

You do not think that opinions about allies are generated by people nowadays ? Those often or not are being passed from generation to generation.
piktoonis - | 86
27 May 2011 #249
It looks like some of you don't know or simply omit some facts to justify your truth.
1)Vilnius(Wilno) had majority of jews and poles were second in number, while surrounding towns and villages had majority of lithuanians. Most of you either forget or convienently omit fact that at those times only 20% of population lived in cities.

2)Claiming that Lithuania invaded and started "lithuanize" the Vilnius district is complete nonsense. When Lithuania decalred independence, Vilnius was it's capital. Poland took over the city only after Lithuania left the city and soviets took over.

3)Lithuania was neutral during Polish-Soviet war. The only "help" was that it allowed transit through territories which were slowly taken over from soviets by Lith-Sov peace treaty.

4)Technically UK honored her guarantee on Poland by declaring war on Germany. Guarantee was meant only against Hiltler, Soviet Union was another matter.
5)Saying that Ukrainian army were the only evil force doing terrible things is inacurate, Poland did the same.
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #250
1)Vilnius(Wilno) had majority of jews and poles were second in number, while surrounding towns and villages had majority of lithuanians. Most of you either forget or convienently omit fact that at those times only 20% of population lived in cities.

Not true. Poles made 60% of all inhabitants of the region.

2)Claiming that Lithuania invaded and started "lithuanize" the Vilnius district is complete nonsense. When Lithuania decalred independence, Vilnius was it's capital. Poland took over the city only after Lithuania left the city and soviets took over.

Again, not true. In November 1918 Vilnius was claimed by newly formed Belarusian state, however shortlived that was (Soviets captured it next month, Poland in April 1919). There was no Lithuanian presence there until the end of August 1920, after Soviets lost the Battle of Warsaw.

3)Lithuania was neutral during Polish-Soviet war. The only "help" was that it allowed transit through territories which were slowly taken over from soviets by Lith-Sov peace treaty.

Not really, since Poland making counteroffensive in September encountered Lithuanian troops where they were previously pushed back by Soviets. That's effectively joining the war.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
27 May 2011 #251
1)Vilnius(Wilno) had majority of Jews and poles were second in number, while surrounding towns and villages had majority of Lithuanians. Most of you either forget or conveniently omit fact that at those times only 20% of population lived in cities.

Sorry sunshine that your chauvinistic stat and you can shove them in your nationalistic ass - meaning it is not true.

When Lithuania declared independence,

No surprise here you are either ignorant or liar. Sure that Germany preferred Lithuania than Poland to be their neighbor.

the work of the Council was hindered, and Germans remained in control over Lithuania

for slow people - Independence declared in concern with Germany who controlled lands of a new independent?state - phew!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Independence_of_Lithuania

Lithuania was neutral during Polish-Soviet war. The only "help" was that it allowed transit through territories which were slowly taken over from soviets by Lith-Sov peace treaty.

Sure, some neutrality.
avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague05.asp

4)Technically UK honored her guarantee on Poland by declaring war on Germany. Guarantee was meant only against Hitler, Soviet Union was another matter.
5)Saying that Ukrainian army were the only evil force doing terrible things is inaccurate, Poland did the same.

Whatever you say mate - you already proved your credibility.
piktoonis - | 86
27 May 2011 #252
Not true. Poles made 60% of all inhabitants of the region.

You are mistaken. 60% was before the start of ww2

Again, not true. In November 1918 Vilnius was claimed by newly formed Belarusian state, however shortlived that was (Soviets captured it next month, Poland in April 1919). There was no Lithuanian presence there until the end of August 1920, after Soviets lost the Battle of Warsaw.

Lithuania declared full independence in february 16 1918, with Vilnius as its capital which was captured in january 5-6 1919 by soviets.

Not really, since Poland making counteroffensive in September encountered Lithuanian troops where they were previously pushed back by Soviets. That's effectively joining the war.

Poland simply ignored Lithuania's neutrality and broke through Lithuania's lines, thus entering foreign territory. Thats how polish-lithuanian war started.

EDIT:

Ironside, it is you who is ignorant.

for slow people - Independence declared in concern with Germany who controlled lands of a new independent ?state - phew!

The were two declarations:
1)1917 12 11. With ties with Germany
2)1918 02 16 full independance
yes, i agree that germans did all to disrupt local goverment, yet they failed and Lithuania became independant.
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #253
Lithuania declared full independence in february 16 1918, with Vilnius as its capital which was captured in january 5-6 1919 by soviets.

Except there wa no Lithuanian administration there, but whatever.

Poland simply ignored Lithuania's neutrality and broke through Lithuania's lines, thus entering foreign territory. Thats how polish-lithuanian war started.

That territory was Polish before the Soviet offensive. When Soviets were withdrawing Poles encountered Lithuanians in the regions previously, effectively Lithuania was a Soviet ally. The truth of the matter is, if Poland lost the Battle of Warsaw, Lithuania would be conquered soon after by Soviets within days. So not only Lithuania made an alliance with a state that wanted to capture them, they also tried to f*ck the country that effectively saved them. Luckily Vilnius went to the fatherland in 1922.

You are mistaken. 60% was before the start of ww2

58% according to the German census in 1916.
piktoonis - | 86
27 May 2011 #254
Except there wa no Lithuanian administration there, but whatever.

If there were no administration, then what did government evacuated when soviets were approaching Vilnius?

The territory wasn't polish, it was captured from soviets. Lithuania was never an ally to soviet union. If you have any proof just state it, but don't throw empty words. If Poland lost Warsaw, Lithuania's fate would grim, i agree. Excellent country was that who saved from soviets yet tried to adsorb Lithuania herself
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #255
If there were no administration, then what did goverment evacuated when soviets were aproaching Vilnius?

A bunch of lunatics? Pretty much trhoughout WW1 until November 1918 Vilnius was under German administration, in November 1918 the city was under Belarussian administration and fell into Soviet hands a month later.

Ruthenien

The territory wasn't polish, it was captured from soviets. Lithuania was never an ally to soviet union. If you have any proof just state it, but don't throw empty words.

Simply, in September 1920 Lithuanian were together with soviets on the front that was purely Soviet in June 1920:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Niemen_River
piktoonis - | 86
27 May 2011 #256
Koala

A bunch of lunatics? Pretty much trhoughout WW1 until November 1918 Vilnius was under German administration, in November 1918 the city was under Belarussian administration and fell into Soviet hands a month later.

There was no Belarus republic. The only one i heard of was made by soviets when they invaded Lithuania, but soon was forgoten when Lithuania kicked out soviets. Germany didn't have so much control as you would think and don't forget that Lithuania had just declared independence and started slowly take control of the land, while germans were slowly pulling out home.

Simply, in September 1920 Lithuanian were together with soviets on the front that was purely Soviet in June 1920:

Those territories were Lithuania's, yet Poland breached lithuanians lines and used that breach to flank soviets and move toward Vilnius.
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #257
There was no Belarus republic. The only one i heard of was made by soviets when they invaded Lithuania

Go educate yourself, then go back here.

Those territories were Lithuania's

According to Lithuania and Lithuania only.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
27 May 2011 #258
Excelent country was that who saved from soviets yet tried to absord Lithuania herself

tried ? if ever Poland try to absorb Lithuania as you put nicely, by the military force you wouldn't last a week.Not deterrent of any-kind stopped Poland from absorbing Lithuania before WWII but a good will.

Let see Lithuanian point of view in the sunlight!
They declared Independence and they demand Wilno. On what grounds - historical capital of The GDL - well, are you continuation of The GDL?
I would really like to hear the answer to the above question.

Those territories were Lithuania's, yet Poland breached lithuanians lines and used that breach to flank soviets and move toward Vilnius.

So, by your own admission Lithuanians were for all the practical purposes allied with Soviets?

Ironside, it is you who is ignorant.

really?

The were two declarations:
1)1917 12 11. With ties with Germany
2)1918 02 16 full independance

you were talking about Act of Independence declared in Wilno - and that only act declared in Wilno was under German rule.Hardly independent state - a buffer state created by Germany.

here for your further education :
This situation changed when the German Revolution started and Germany lost the war in the fall of 1918 – it was no longer in a position to dictate terms. The Council of Lithuania adopted the first provisional constitution on November. The functions of government were entrusted to a three-member presidium, and Augustinas Voldemaras was invited to form the first Cabinet of Ministers of Lithuania.The first government was formed on November 11, 1918, on the day that Germany signed the armistice in Compiègne. The Council immediately began to organize an army, police, municipalities, and other institutions. The proclaimed independence was established.
Harry
27 May 2011 #259
what words do I need to use so You understand?read my answers and You will find what You are looking for

You need to use words which go into detail as to exactly what Britain could have done in September 1939 but did not do. So far you have said only things like "You shuld have been active" (although Britain was active), "mobilise and fight" (which Britain did do), "send help" (to where and how?).

how many?

Tens of thousands. 1,200 were on a single British warship which was sunk on 17 September 1939 with the loss of 518 men. But of course you have to lie about them and claim that they were not fighting.

allright, Britain did almost nothing

And yet again, kindly go into detail as to exactly what Britain could have done in September 1939 but did not do.

no, they didnt, because the agreed demarcation line was ending BEFORE the Vilnius region

Yes they did.

how can You steal Your own property?

Poland had agreed, the day before it invaded, that the territory was Lithuanian.

Poland was the 4th largest ally contributor to the war even.

No it wasn't. First was the USSR, then China, then the USA, then Britain, then Yugoslavia, then Poland.

We fought on more fronts than any allied country.

No you did not (well, not unless you count the Poles fighting in North Africa, but they were fighting against the Allies; or perhaps you want double points for Poles fighting on both sides in both Normandy and Italy?) Tell me about the Polish involvement in the war against Japan.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
27 May 2011 #260
Except there wa no Lithuanian administration there, but whatever.

So what was with the coup in 1919, what administration did you try to overthrow?

After the failed Wasilewski's mission, Polish newspapers increased their anti-Lithuanian propaganda.

Macchiavelli would have been proud of Poland in 1919.

Not really, since Poland making counteroffensive in September encountered Lithuanian troops where they were previously pushed back by Soviets. That's effectively joining the war.

You don't encounter your enemies on the foreign territory without permission. That is called invasion and Poland besides its failed coup d'etat attacked Lithuania a year later. Shame.

For the record - Ukrainians being soldiers in Read Army are mostly Ukrainians from Soviet State, soviet citizens, I have no issue with them.

What state? Cuba? China? The state had the name. Who cares what issues you might have?! I bet there more psychological issues you have to battle on the daily basis.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
27 May 2011 #261
The state had the name.

Yes USSR !
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
27 May 2011 #262
Harry....

You mean, the Sikorski's soldiers fought against the allies in North Africa? Please explain.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 May 2011 #263
What state? Cuba? China? The state had the name. Who cares what issues you might have?! I bet there more psychological issues you have to battle on the daily basis.

There was no ukrainian army or ukrainian units, the ukrainian soldiers were, unlike Poles, pressed into Red Army units into Russian units.
Harry
27 May 2011 #264
You mean, the Sikorski's soldiers fought against the allies in North Africa? Please explain.

I wasn't aware that the Polish troops were there, and I was also unaware that Czechoslovak troops were there. So I learned something new today, i.e. we have to add the North Africa theater to the list of places where Poles were fighting on both sides.
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #265
Poles compulsorily included in German army (like Tusk's grandfather) don't exactly count as Polish troops.

So what was with the coup in 1919, what administration did you try to overthrow?

Lithuanian government which was not set in Vilnius. Period.

Macchiavelli would have been proud of Poland in 1919.

Maybe. It's not like Lithuania, Czech, Germany, USSR and Ukraine played it all fair, either.

You don't encounter your enemies on the foreign territory without permission. That is called invasion and Poland besides its failed coup d'etat attacked Lithuania a year later. Shame.

Shame for Lithuania that they entered the theatre of war and lost? Maybe, but they bet on the wrong horse and got what they deserved.
Harry
27 May 2011 #266
Poles compulsorily included in German army (like Tusk's grandfather) don't exactly count as Polish troops.

It was impossible for Poles to be drafted into the German army, they had to sign up for the DV list before they were eligible to be drafted. And if they were 'forced' to serve, how come so few of them deserted until well after D-Day?
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #267
Weren't Germans compulsorily drafting even teenagers towards the end of the war as their man force was heavily depleted? As for not deserting wasn't death the punishment for deserters (like in the Red Army)?

Regardless, those were individuals, not Polish troops as you name them. Polish troops were only on one side in Africa, among Desert Rats.
Harry
27 May 2011 #268
Weren't Germans compulsorily drafting even teenagers towards the end of the war as their man force was heavily depleted?

Yes, they were drafting teenagers, but only German teenagers.

As for not deserting wasn't death the punishment for deserters (like in the Red Army)?

Yes, but that didn't stop tens of thousands of Poles from deserting, after it became clear who was going to win.

Regardless, those were individuals, not Polish troops as you name them.

They were Poles and they were troops, therefore they were Polish troops.
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #269
Yes, they were drafting teenagers, but only German teenagers.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, given how desperate they were at that time.

Yes, but that didn't stop tens of thousands of Poles from deserting, after it became clear who was going to win.

How many Poles were there in the German army? Please provide a source.

They were Poles and they were troops, therefore they were Polish troops.

That's not how it works.

edit: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht

So not really, Poles weren't fighting for German army.
Harry
27 May 2011 #270
I wouldn't be so sure of that, given how desperate they were at that time.

By the time they got that desperate, they didn't hold any significant parts of Poland. However they did have quite a few Poles in the Reich as forced labour and I have never heard of even a single case of such persons being forced into the armed forces. Have you?

How many Poles were there in the German army? Please provide a source.

According to British army records, 104, 817 Poles fought in the German armed forces and were captured by / deserted to western allies. 89,300 subsequently joined the western command Polish army and some 15,517 refused to join.

That's not how it works.

You wish to claim that they were not Polish or that they were not troops?


Home / History / Poland's biggest historical blunder?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.