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Poland's biggest historical blunder?


Harry
24 May 2011 #211
I know:( but cant help myself

Certainly manage to help yourself when it comes to answering the questions asked of you.

during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions" - so I think You shuld have been active!!!

In September of 1939 the British army had a total of nine war-ready divisions, all of which were in the UK. The first troops left within two weeks of war being declared. But even if all of them could have been got there, they would have been attacking Germany troops in strong defensive positions while outnumbered 2.5 to one. I say 'if' but in reality the Polish army didn't manage to hold out against the Germans for long enough for even half of the troops to get to a place from which they could attack the Germans. Could, if they'd have been given permission.

sorry You were active - dropping propaganda leaflets on Germany

And of course you can't help yourself: you have to lie about the other British actions. Why don't I send you the addresses of the families of the airmen and sailors who died while fighting German in September 1939: you a spit in their faces instead of just spitting on the memory of heroes.

"On 12 September, the Anglo French Supreme War Council gathered for the first time at Abbeville in France. It was decided that all offensive actions were to be halted immediately

An interesting description: the British had no land forces in any position to conduct offensive actions and the death records show that its navy and airforce most certainly continued to fight. But by that date the French had already stopped their land operations against Germany. But I guess I'm forgetting the first rule of history in Poland: blame the Jews and/or the British.

Harry I mean Your govermnet not You

Could you perhaps go into detail as to how my government supported the commie regime? And after you have failed to do that, perhaps you could go into detail as to how the British government supported the commie regime?

the treaty was only abiut Suwalszczyzna, Wilno was not mentioned, why do You lie?

Quite right, the treaty did not actually mention Vilnius but it did set a line and Vilnius was on the Lithuanian side of that line, which is why Poland had to invade what it had agreed to be Lithuania in order to get to Vilnius. But perhaps there is a reason that you overlooked that tiny little fact?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
24 May 2011 #212
and Vilnius was on the Lithuanian

Were you for or against independence of Kosovo ?

Poland had to invade what it had agreed to be Lithuania in order to get to Vilnius.

Didn't Republic of Central Lithuania decided to join Poland ?
David_18 68 | 982
25 May 2011 #213
ut perhaps there is a reason that you overlooked that tiny little fact?

Ever heard of the Żeligowski's Mutiny?

It was a sham mutiny led by Polish General Lucjan Żeligowski in October 1920, which resulted in the creation of the short-lived Republic of Central Lithuania. Polish Chief of State Józef Piłsudski had surreptitiously ordered Żeligowski to carry out the operation, and revealed the truth several years later. This operation paved the way for the Polish annexation of Vilnius, and the Vilnius Region, two years later.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBeligowski%27s_Mutiny

Its a shame that Józef didnt live untill the outbreak of ww2...
Harry
25 May 2011 #214
Were you for or against independence of Kosovo ?

Where you for or against the parts of Poland which were majority Ukrainian being part of Ukraine? Of do you only support self-determination for Poles?

Didn't Republic of Central Lithuania decided to join Poland ?

Hadn't Poland already signed an international treaty in which it agreed that that land was part of Lithuania? And hadn't the Polish army invaded that territory under orders from the Polish head of state?

Ever heard of the Żeligowski's Mutiny?

Yes: it was in no way a mutiny and it was ordered for the day after Polan signed the Treaty of Suwalki.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
25 May 2011 #215
Where you for or against the parts of Poland which were majority Ukrainian being part of Ukraine? Of do you only support self-determination for Poles?

Certainly, by supporting Kosovar indepedence, he also supports the right of the Komancza Republic to declare independence, as well as the Lemko Republic, and also supports things such as Silesian autonomy.

I suppose he also supports the right of modern day villages to join Lithuania if the majority wishes to do so.
Harry
25 May 2011 #216
Obviously, I mean, there is no chance at all of Greggy being a complete and utter hypocrite when it comes to history, is there?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 May 2011 #217
Talking about Ukrainian 'barbarians' who plundered towns and murdered civilians.

At least we did it at home and against Jewish commies, not like invading barbarians from Poland who besides organizing post-WWII pogroms of Jews managed to come over and murder civilians in Ukraine, Lithuania and the Czech republic.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
25 May 2011 #218
At least we did it at home and against Jewish commies,

What about almost 200.000 polish civilians you murdered? Were thy all Jewish commies too? Tell me Nathan where was the brave ukrainian army in 1945 when polish military finally brought back order to the communities terrorised by ukrainians?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 May 2011 #219
The Ukrainian army didn't terrorize Poles. Both Ukrainian and Polish armies were weakened and practically exterminated in 1945-1956 period by the commies.

What about almost 200.000 polish civilians you murdered?

What about them and who murdered them? There were mutual atrocities committed and we already talked about that. Hundred thousand Poles in Volyn were murdered by NKVD. Sure, many died from a Ukrainian hand due to the stupid policies your country lead from 1340 to 1947 which killed many of my compatriots. But it seems it is changing and it is nice :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
25 May 2011 #220
The Ukrainian army didn't terrorize Poles

UPA - ukrainian insurgent army responsible for 100.000-200.000 murdered and tortured polish civilians.

Both Ukrainian and Polish armies were weakened and practically exterminated in 1945-1956 period by the commies.

I'm sorry? Poland in 1945 has almost 300.000 standing troops.

What about them and who murdered them?

Ukrainians murdered them obviouly.

Hundred thousand Poles in Volyn were murdered by NKVD

Nope, they were killed by ukrainians, remember when i posted pictures and figures?

Sure, many died from a Ukrainian hand due to the stupid policies your country lead from 1340 to 1947

So you belive ukraine is not responsible for the people it murdered?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 May 2011 #221
I'm sorry? Poland in 1945 has almost 300.000 standing troops.

Ukraine too, but what did they stand for? Sucking to the commies?!

UPA - ukrainian insurgent army responsible

BS. But dream on.

Nope, they were killed by ukrainians, remember when i posted pictures and figures?

I remember you posting a picture of a Gypsy woman who killed her kids.
Anyhow, the Ukrainians are a patient nation which respects others. But when you push us too far as Poland did in 1920-30s we start a murderous rampage. So, please, don't push our buttons, moreover, on our land.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
25 May 2011 #222
Ukraine too, but what did they stand for? Sucking to the commies?!

Nope, Ukraine did not have a single regular military unit in 1945, not one.

nyhow, the Ukrainians are a patient nation which respects others

Thats why you murder Jews, Poles and Russians when their armies are away and lose all actuall wars?

But when you push us too far as Poland did in 1920-30s we start a murderous rampage. So, please, don't push our buttons, moreover, on our land.

Well you tried a murderous rampage in 1919 but you got completely obliterated by the polish army so its more accurate to say ukrainians start a murderous rampage only when thy do not face any army :)))))
Harry
25 May 2011 #223
Well you tried a murderous rampage in 1919 but you got completely obliterated by the polish army

I think that you will find that actually an alliance was formed between Ukrainian and Polish forces. However, given the way that Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back and sold their country to the USSR, it is understandable that you lie about the true events.
Torq
25 May 2011 #224
UPA - ukrainian insurgent army responsible

BS. But dream on.

I'm afraid Sok is right on this one, Nat. What UPA did was genocide, and until Ukrainians acknowledge
that, there will be no real reconcilliation between our countries.

Also, you can't put an equal sign between UPA's genocide and limited retaliation by local Polish
self-defence and AK units.

when you push us too far as Poland did in 1920-30s we start a murderous rampage. So, please, don't
push our buttons, moreover, on our land.

Was that supposed to sound scary, Nat? Because it only sounded sad.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
25 May 2011 #225
And stupid given how weak compared to Poland Ukraine is.

I'm afraid Sok is right on this one, Nat. What UPA did was genocide, and until Ukrainians acknowledge
that, there will be no real reconcilliation between our countries.

According to Nathan and the rest of those ukrainian nazis nearly a quarter milion Poles were killed by Russians, Germans and bird flu, Ukrainians werent even there.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 May 2011 #226
until Ukrainians acknowledge that, there will be no real reconcilliation between our countries.

I am not trying to reach any reconciliation.

Also, you can't put an equal sign

Poles are always saints, especially when they start to cry and mumble ;)

Was that supposed to sound scary, Nat? Because it only sounded sad.

No, it is something that some dumbheads in centuries can't understand. Among those it seems are you and Socki.

how weak compared to Poland Ukraine is

Poland is always the strongest. Who ever argued?

bird flu

Maybe, a swine flu.
Torq
25 May 2011 #227
I am not trying to reach any reconciliation.

Very well then. At least you're honest.

some dumbheads in centuries can't understand

Yeah...

many died from a Ukrainian hand due to the stupid policies your country lead from 1340

...right, Nat. I guess I'm one of those dumbasses who think that what Poland did in 1340 is hardly
relevant to UPA's genocide, but what do we know.

Oh, sorry - I forgot about Wiśniowiecki in XVII century. You're right - it was OK to murder all those
civilians in the 20th century because of what "Jarema" did in 1600s.

Maybe, a swine flu.

Close proximity to Ukrainian population would seem to support your theory.
David_18 68 | 982
25 May 2011 #228
Oh, sorry - I forgot about Wiśniowiecki in XVII century. You're right - it was OK to murder all those
civilians in the 20th century because of what "Jarema" did in 1600s.

They should be happy to have had a gentleman like Wiśniowiecki in those lands. Without him and his fellow countrymen there would be no civilisation in Ukraine.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 May 2011 #229
Oh, sorry - I forgot about Wiśniowiecki in XVII century

Torq, it is not about Wyshneweckij or anyone in particular. It is the policy of your country through the centuries in this region. Pick up a year, look at the region's history and you will see what I am talking about. The oppressive policies continued till the operation "Wisla" in 1947. Until everyone was finally deported, massacred, destroyed, f*cked both in your the highest cultural center of the Universe and my stupid region with not-intelligent people.

Without him and his fellow countrymen there would be no civilisation in Ukraine.

We still in need of Polish brains, just not sure where: in books or on the walls.
gumishu 11 | 5,637
25 May 2011 #230
Until everyone was finally deported, massacred, destroyed, f*cked both in your the highest cultural center of the Universe and my stupid region with not-intelligent people.

yeah, sure - everybody got destroyed but still they managed to drop seeds like drying mushrooms - those bloody Ukrainians spread like weed :P
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
25 May 2011 #231
Where you for or against the parts of Poland which were majority Ukrainian being part of Ukraine? Of do you only support self-determination for Poles?

I support self-determination for everyone, unlike you.

However, given the way that Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back

I was proving it to be nonsense several times. Your strategy is obvious for everyone, who is a long time member of these forums: flood the opponents with so much nonsense that they will get tired responding to that, especially when they have life outside of this place and more serious things to do than preparing some kid for FCE or writing reviews of 3rd rate takeaways.
David_18 68 | 982
25 May 2011 #232
We still in need of Polish brains, just not sure where: in books or on the walls.

We still need cheap labour from Ukraine just like in the 16'th century.
Ironside 50 | 10,917
25 May 2011 #233
It is the policy of your country through the centuries in this region. Pick up a year, look at the region's history and you will see what I am talking about. The oppressive policies continued

You are simply a stubborn moron. Get your facts right. You are talking nonsense , the very existence Ukrainians is due to Poles ie Kingdom of Poland.

As for Lwów and Podole it is our land being part of the Crown since the middle-ages and not amount of Ukrainians living there will ever change that.

Poor victims, always oppressed, what a bull!
Nathan 18 | 1,363
26 May 2011 #234
As for Lwów and Podole it is our land

Unless you live in La-la land, which I don't doubt. How is the weather there today?

always oppressed

Not oppressed, just hating our buttons to be pushed.
*looks at the buttons and sees Ironside trying to push them* ;)
Palivec - | 380
26 May 2011 #235
As for Lwów and Podole it is our land being part of the Crown since the middle-ages and not amount of Ukrainians living there will ever change that.

Maybe you didn't notice it, but the Crown doesn't exist anymore, and the Middle Ages are long gone too.
Pandoras box shouldn't be opened, otherwise some Germans could remember that some Polish towns aren't Polish either...
Torq
26 May 2011 #236
As I always say: we didn't hide those towns anywhere - they are still where they have always been.
You want them - you know where to find them, come and get them :-)

Of course, I agree with you that after centuries of constant warfare, the borders in Europe are more
or less where they should be, and trying to change them may indeed cause a Pandora's box effect.

*Besides, we're in EU now - aren't those borders supposed to gradually dissappear anyway?*
Harry
26 May 2011 #237
I was proving it to be nonsense several times.

No you have not: because you can not. The facts are as follows: Poland signed a treaty in 1920 with the Ukrainian People's Republic, in that treaty they recognised each other as states, agreed their borders, gave ethnic groups certain rights and agreed not to sign any international agreements which were against the interests of the other party; in 1921 Poland signed a peace treaty with the USSR in which it agreed that the Ukrainian People's Republic did not exist and that the land of the Ukrainian People's Republic belonged to the USSR, in that same treaty Poland accepted tens of millions of rubles. Perhaps you can try to explain how it is "nonsense" to state that Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back?

more serious things to do than preparing some kid for FCE or writing reviews of 3rd rate takeaways.

You're badly out of date: I haven't prepared anybody for FCE for at least seven years and haven't taught kids for 12 years. Your comment about reviews shows your stupidity: places either get reviews because they are good (which a third rate takeaway won't be) or because they are interesting (which a third rate takeaway won't be) or because they may advertise (which a third rate takeaway won't do).
hubabuba - | 113
26 May 2011 #238
Harry You can talk all You want , the truth is almost for a year You did nothing significant, due to You inaction Russia got involved in war, and if Germans hadnt invaded the France, You wouldnt fight at all. Pointing out 2 or 10 bombs dropped on Germany is ridicuolous

you have to lie about the other British actions.

was it a lie?as for spitting in the face I am just taking an example of the GREAT Britain,

An interesting description

again, Harry You are fighting the facts, I dont know what else can I say, is it not true?

Could you perhaps go into detail as to how my government supported the commie regime?

Your(British) goverment recognized the commie regime, and forgot about the one who was cooperating with Britain during the war- the legal Polish goverment in exile

But perhaps there is a reason that you overlooked that tiny little fact?

the treaty says about Suwalszczyzna and on the northerm land -north from Niemen river, it ends in Bastuny south from Wilno, agreed demarcation line ends before Wilno, why do You lie?

Of do you only support self-determination for Poles

the right of nations to self determine- great but why are You using this only when it suits You, Lithuanians didnt agree on plebiscite and nation self determiantion in Vilnius region, but who cares right?also in Lwow region majority were Poles, but again who cares, in the peace of Riga Dmowski didnt want to take more land because he didnt believe there was enough Poles there, leaving milions of them outside of the border

If You are so sensitive, about peoples self determination why dont Your people leave Belfast?shouldnt You rather be on British forum fighting this?

The Ukrainian army didn't terrorize Poles

the IUkrainian army terrorized whoever was defencless, vulnerable, child or women, You couldnt fight with men so Your main occupation was helping Germans
Harry
26 May 2011 #239
Harry You can talk all You want , the truth is almost for a year You did nothing significant

So you still can not tell us exactly what Britain could have done to help Poland but did not do. OK, nice of you to finally admit it.

if Germans hadnt invaded the France, You wouldnt fight at all.

British men were fighting and dying well before France was invaded. I wonder why you feel the need to lie about their sacrifice.

was it a lie?as for spitting in the face I am just taking an example of the GREAT Britain,

Yes it is a lie. You say Britain did nothing and the historical facts are very different, this has been repeatedly pointed out to you but you still repeat your claims: that makes them lies and you a liar.

Your(British) goverment recognized the commie regime, and forgot about the one who was cooperating with Britain during the war- the legal Polish goverment in exile

Well done, unfortunately you claimed that the British government "supported" the commies: prove that claim or admit that it is a lie. As for the Polish govt in exile being legal, remind me which free and fair elections had seen that self-apppointed government voted into office.

the treaty says about Suwalszczyzna and on the northerm land -north from Niemen river, it ends in Bastuny south from Wilno, agreed demarcation line ends before Wilno, why do You lie?

Did Polish troops invade land which was on the Lithuanian side of the demarcation line? Yes, they did.
As for the treaty not mentioning Vilnius, the 1990 German-Polish border treaty doesn't mention Gdansk, does that mean the Germans can have Danzig back?

Lithuanians didnt agree on plebiscite and nation self determiantion in Vilnius region

And Poland agreed to that, the day before they invaded Lithuania and stole Lithuanian property.

also in Lwow region majority were Poles,

Liar. Even the interbellum Polish censuses (which were fixed) had to agree that the majority of the people in south east Poland were Ukrainian!

If You are so sensitive, about peoples self determination why dont Your people leave Belfast?

My people are not in Belfast, but do feel free to lie about them being there.
Ironside 50 | 10,917
26 May 2011 #240
looks at the buttons and sees Ironside trying to push them*

Where I grew up there were a plenty of ukies around, and I know what that they do not respond to push, the only way is kick them in the butt.


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